ReformedPoster

15 hours ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

Future Prospect to be clear.  He wrestled 80kgs at Nationals.  You know he is 16 right?  I meant top 5 in high school.  The results are free for everyone to see.  I'm not silly or delusional.  If you've won the Pan-Ams in both styles, and you have AA six times at Nationals.making the Semi's 5 of those times and the finals 4 times.  I don't think it's a stretch to say we may have a future Olympian on our hands.

Veazy is clearly one of, if not the best wrestler in the state.  So this is not a knock on him.  I know you are his biggest fan on here, I deservedly so, but calling any 16 year old a future Olympian is certainly a stretch.  Guys with superior HS, Free, Greco credentials have failed to make it to that level.  i'd say that the 2032 Olympic games would be his window.  So much can happen between now and then.  How about we just enjoy his HS career for the next two years and see where that takes him.  I'd love to see him get to that level, but let's enjoy where he is for now

it is incredibly difficult to have to go through the challenge tournament and then jump to Final X the next day for the Olympic berth.  It is vitally important for Nick Lee to grab a medal this year so he doesn't have to run the gauntlet.  He can sit and wait while everybody else beats each other up

On 6/16/2023 at 12:58 PM, SIACfan said:

 

Also, there are less weight classes.

 

So the questions begs, what weight do Retherford & Vito compete at?

 

Not to mention any other wrestler at 61kg &/or 70kg. Do the 61kg wrestlers try to go 57 or 65, and do the 70kg wrestlers try 65 or 74?

 

Clearly, the Olympic team will be even harder to make. Thus Nick securing his spot in Final-X by medaling this year will be big.

I think the majority of 70 kg, it not all, will drop to 65 kg.  Nobody wants to go through Nolf and then a fresh Dake to make the team.  

Same for the 61 kg guys.  They don't want to deal with Nick, Yianni, Zain and the others.  They will cut to 57 where there isn't clear favorite.  The big question is how will guys like Vito, Fix, DeSanto do with that weight cut.  Vito looks like a completely different wrestler this year vs when he was at 125/57 kg.  The flo guys were saying the other day that the cut to 57 looks like it is catching up with Gilman.  Throw in a healthy (hopefully) Spencer Lee and 57 kg is a complete toss up.

1 hour ago, MattM said:

I’m ready to be done with this bonus COVID years eligibility. I can’t keep track of who’s still wrestling and who’s done these days.  

Agreed.  Seems like the Rooks bros have been there forever.  anyway, here is my prediction

125 - Ramos

133 - toss up

141 - Rooks

149 - Rooks

157 - Gilcher

165 - Buell

174 - Baumann

184 - Toss up

197 - I'm pulling for Sollars here

285 - Bullock

Nick lee takes another step towards indiana GOAT status by knocking off 4x ncaa champ yianni to make the world team. 

Lee beats yianni in Match 1 7-6. I thought Nick looked really good. Going to be a tight one in match 2 for sure

Both Lee and Parris have their work cut out for them.

Nick has at least beaten Yianni in freestyle somewhat recently.  Detractors will say it was on the back side and that Yianni wasn't mentally ready, etc.  I do think Yianni is the definite favorite, but I'm confident Cael and co. have a game plan.  Nick needs to keep position and be fundamentally sound.  When he gets to his shots he needs to finish quickly.  He can't give up 4 point moves like he did against Bartlett and expect to beat Yianni.  I don't think Yianni will wilt under Lee's pressure like McKenna did in the second period a few weeks ago.  My heart says Lee, but my head says Yianni wins it two matches to 1.

Unfortunately, I don't think Parris has an answer for Gable in neutral.  He's just so far ahead of the field in the US that for Parris to keep it under a tech will be a victory of sorts.  Not sure what the game plan will be.  Parris' strength and athleticism are negated by Gable's superior strength and athleticism.  And I think Gable has a huge technique advantage on their feet.  Parris has been able to keep in close before, but I've never felt that he was going to win.  Don't see it happening at Final X.  Gable wins in two straight without being threatened.

Don't know enough about the women's side to intelligently comment on Miracle and Hildebrandt, but I'll take them to win their respective weights

4 minutes ago, brickfor6 said:

My thing is....it is really hard to place at worlds no matter what country you do it for. 

 

Also I would like to mention Zavur Uguev...2x world champ, and Olympic champ. In 2019, Uguev was bronze at the European games, Micic was 2nd. I am not saying that this makes him better than him, Micic lost to him by 2 in 2018. Gilman has also lost to him by 2. I think the match between Gilman and Micic is closer than everyone thinks. 

 

And think about this for a minute. Micic's spot on the Serbian team is a lock. Why would he want to deal with the process of making the USA team.

 

If he would have won a world title, would everyone still be like "NoPe DoEsN't CoUnT" Because he didn't do it for the USA... HE HAS A WORLD MEDAL: That is hard to do. Humphrey didn't get that done when he was on the US world team. Angel didn't get it done. No one (male) in the recent years has done that. Yes Howe was behind some guys, but who is to say he would have came back with a medal? Doesn't matter USA or Not...You are wrestling at the world championships. Once Nick Lee comes back with a world medal, then we can start the GOAT Talk, but for now he is still a Nittany Wildcat Lion. IMO 

 

Also the argument is about Indiana GOAT. Not whether someone would make the USA team. 

 

I agree with you that a world medal is a feather in Micic's cap.  He did what he needed to do to get on that stage and capitalized on his opportunity.  That's awesome! 

I just think that in the totality of somebody's career, if you want to be considered the GOAT then you have to do it at all levels.  High School(minimum state champ), College(minimum National Champ), International(minimum sr world/olympic medal).  Right now we have a bunch of guys that have accomplished 2 of the 3.  Angel, Howe, Nick Lee, Parris, Micic.  IMO those are your 5 candidates for the IN GOAT at this time.  Of that group, only Lee and Parris have a chance to still get that 3rd milestone.  Parris does have a Jr world title, so that would tip the scales in his favor if neither Lee nor Parris get that sr world/olympic medal

40 minutes ago, maligned said:

Nobody said that. He wouldn't beat Gilman. 

 

Truth be told: my favorite Indiana wrestler to watch and to cheer for post-high school was definitely Hump. He was so freaking exciting. I lived and died with all his Trials and Worlds matches every year--more than I care to admit. And I love his attitude and persona and all of it.

 

But I also pride myself on being someone that can see things objectively and consider all the information available in a nuanced way. Hump never really came very close to medaling. He had some exciting matches with top-tier guys, but he was only just inside the top 10 at Worlds at his apex, in both placement and performance. 

 

True. Howe and Micic didn't get our national team spots behind perennial medal-winners and gold-medal contenders. But do we disqualify them from the discussion of having been better in the world context because one of the 3 or 4 guys in the world better than them were from their own country? Maybe for a lot of people, the answer is yes. For me, it's a tough one.

It certainly doesn't disqualify them by any means, but it doesn't help their case.  At least in my opinion. 

It will be very interesting to see how things shake out over the next 1-2 olympic cycles.  Can Nick Lee knock of Yianni over the next two years and get a world/olympic medal?  How does Mendez progress over the next 3 college seasons and how does he do on the senior freestyle circuit?  Will Parris hang around long enough to shoot for the '28 Olympics?  How do guys like Christian Carroll do in the college ranks and beyond?  Lots of talent from Indiana, let's see how they do.

39 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

That's because you support Mater Dei so you want the criteria to favor your wrestler.  You don't determine the rules. The World .knows Amine.  There is a World beyond Evansville.  Olympic Medals count to everyone.  Ask a random kid would you like to win 2 NCAA Championships or a World Medal as an adult? You already know the answer.

Who does make the rules for these hypothetical discussions??  How many people in Michigan consider Myles Amine the Michigan GOAT?

For me, it has nothing to do with what high school somebody supports.  I'm sure we all agree that Micic is an outstanding wrestler and a worthy candidate for the Indiana GOAT.  But we all have different criteria.  If Kyle Dake or David Taylor or Andrew Howe could have found a loophole to allow them to compete for another country and get around the roadblock that was Jordan Burroughs I'm sure they would have taken it.  But IMO, it wouldn't be the same as going through that roadblock like Dake did this past olympic trials.

For what it's worth, I don't think there are more than a handful of people outside of IN that think Micic would be the US world team rep if he chose to try and rep the US.

2 hours ago, igotcaught said:

HS GOAT has to be Jason Tsirtsis. 3 years without getting scored on offensively, and the only high school wrestler in Indiana history to beat a D1 NCAA Champion while still in high school. Jason was multiple levels above everyone in the country his senior year, destroying guys like zain retherford. I'm pretty sure Jason manhandled the #2 kid in the country at his weight class by 14 points at the Dapper Dan too. We've seen many guys win Fargo, Super 32, make a world team, win 4 state titles, etc. But we have never seen anyone match the level of dominance Jason had as a senior in high school. That ceiling of skill is yet to be reached by any other high schooler. The highest ceiling we have seen was when Jason controlled Darrion Caldwell. Until someone matches that, HS GOAT belongs to Jason.

Clearly that was a signature win.  But it also wasn't the same Caldwell that beat Metcalf.  This was a freestyle match and clearly Caldwell wasn't a seasoned freestyler.  

2 hours ago, brickfor6 said:

Typically in GOAT discussion past matches are brought up that are old. MJ vs Lebron. 

 

In all honesty, I think Howe is the GOAT. But it is hard to argue because Micic has a world medal.

I look at the totality of their careers, not just senior freestyle.

This is my opinion:

HS GOAT - Mendez

NCAA GOAT - Nick Lee

Freestyle GOAT - Humphrey

Based on performance at all 3 levels, my Indiana GOAT at the moment is Andrew Howe.  That will change if Nick Lee can get past Yianni and gets on the podium at worlds.  If he gets past yianni and then doesn't medal, then it doesn't move the needle for me too much.

This list can and likely will change over time and some of these younger guys come up through the ranks.

I tend to give more weight to folkstyle since that is the "American" style that we all grew up with and it is where the majority of our focus and training is.  There are so many factors that come into play when talking worlds/Olympics.  This biggest is the draw.  If you get a favorable draw you can have a relatively easy path to a medal, especially since they give two bronze medals at worlds and Olympics.  I don't fault guys like Micic and Myles Amine who choose to represent other countries.  They do what they need to do to give them the best opportunity to be on the world stage.  But nobody considers Myles Amine as the Michigan GOAT just because he has an Olympic bronze medal.  Same thing for Micic, IMO.

12 hours ago, brickfor6 said:

Sure I get that, but we are not talking about the US. We are talking about Indiana.

Btw Gilman and Micic lost to the same person at 22’ worlds, both by 5.

 

Not to mention Micic one of 3 reasons Nick Lee only has 1 state title.

if we are going to use a decade old match where a freshman lost to a senior, then we need to put Humphrey over Howe as well.

16 hours ago, maligned said:

Suriano would never medal at the world level. You have to score. Vito has to prove that he can take his big progress to a sucked down 57. And Lee will always be hurt. 

 

If I wanted the best chance at a world medal for my team and micic is still down at 57, I would absolutely take him over anyone but Gilman. 

We will agree to disagree.  I think he caught lightning in a bottle to medal at worlds.  He also looked terrible at the olympics.  

FWIW, I agree with you about Vito.  He's take a huge leap this year, but can he maintain that level when he has to suck down to 57?

1 hour ago, maligned said:

Sure about that? Before Gilman's run of 4 medals in 6 tries, we went two full cycles (8 years) with two fifths and no medals at 55/57kg.

 

Micic has a medal and a fifth in three tries. He's not Gilman, but he's also not Richards or Suriano or Ramos of a few years ago. (He's better)

Yep.  I don't think he beats Gilman, Suriano, Vito or a healthy Lee at 57 Kg.

2 hours ago, brickfor6 said:

Did Micic just get the crown of GOAT? lol

I don't think so.  I think it is unlikely he would have made the US team.  Props to him for doing whatever he could to get to worlds.  he made the most of it, but I think he's a good ways down the ladder in the US.  IMO, that works against him.

28 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

I give more weight to the international styles.  I lean towards Greco because in my seasoned opinion world class Greco shows an understanding of position that can not be matched.  I lean towards the international style’s because that’s what the world is doing. And even though I was personally a beast on top: par terre or mat wrestling on top tells me nothing about who is executing the best techniques in the world.  Now I said all that to say this: I think Nick is currently top 5 p4p.  So I have him surpassing Humphrey Hump come this fall. World title seals it.

Well, if Greco is the end all be all, then Pete Lee or David Butler should be at the top of the GOAT list for IN

6 hours ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

Only if we allow you to determine the criteria.  Middle school career trumps elementary.  High School trumps middle school.  College trumps high school.  The Olympics trump college. That's the ultimate goal.  And 3 world  senior teams?  I hate Ohio State but Humphreys is the overall Indiana GOAT.  

freestyle and folkstyle are almost two different sports.  Humphrey was very good at folkstyle, but he was better at freestyle.  Which style do you give more weight to?  Lee was clearly the better folkstyle wrestler.  Lee's freestyle career isn't over yet.  if he can take out Yianni and make the world team this year then I think it is obvious who the Indiana GOAT is.

17 hours ago, MattM said:

D. Veazy makes the U17 Freestyle finals.  C. Carroll in the U20 Freestyle finals.  Veazy has a Best of 3 series for a Wolrd Team sport this evening.  Carroll can secure a spot in the U10 World Team Trial finals with. win. 

I think Carroll can take those U10 kids pretty easily

3 hours ago, QuinnHarris said:

Reece Humphrey gets the nod for now. A world medal may change that though

Zero NCAA titles drops him down the list

On 4/28/2023 at 5:04 AM, GenHeavyHandz said:

Kinda like our interactions.  Except I never lose.

No one has a higher opinion of himself than the general

Steveson continues to big brother parris. 11-1 this time

Pretty clear who the top dog is at 125kg through 2024. Gable teched parris 11-1

2 hours ago, Ahawkeye said:

Yeah that was a raw deal, the story I heard was, those guys didn't have any practice partners. I believe they started talking at regionals and got together. I remember one local (Evansville) coach saying if he were in their shoes rather than get get stripped of any awards he would conveniently "lose" those medals and ribbons. I was a 7th grader that year so that was a while ago, that's what I remember anyway.

That's exactly what happened.  They were the last ones standing from Southridge and Ev Harrison, so they practiced together.  When it came out that that happened, they were retroactively disqualified.

9 hours ago, Ahap88 said:

This interview about it sounds like purely promoting his brand. I never listened to him talk before, maybe that's just the way he is, but it comes off like a rehearsed WWE promo. I hope he's taking this seriously and it's not a stunt. 

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/10855785-wwe-star-gable-stevesons-plan-to-return-to-competition

I don't think that interview is out of the norm for him.  Again, if he's been training seriously he shouldn't have too much trouble winning this weekend.