bulldog145

Matt King was a wrestler in the 90's from Tipton

Matt King was a wrestler in the 90's from Tipton

The Buffalo Bills.

Thoughts and prayers from the Clinton Central Bulldog Wrestlers.

Thoughts and prayers from the Clinton Central Bulldog Wrestlers.

Clinton Central's coach has taught at CC for 19 years.

I second this with the addition of splitting into 2 Regional Sites and bringing the top 8 from both sites to make a 1 day 16 man tournament.  Maybe do it on a Saturday and Sunday or back to back weekends.  

I second this with the addition of splitting into 2 Regional Sites and bringing the top 8 from both sites to make a 1 day 16 man tournament.  Maybe do it on a Saturday and Sunday or back to back weekends.  

This has been an issue for years between those 2 Sectionals.  It was even worse before Zionsville moved over to Crawfordsville.  
I think it is very important when it comes to building a solid small school program.  Success breeds success.  I've voiced my opinion on this for years.  

HSE with 9 this year, one short of school record set last year.
 
Shout out to some smaller schools in our sectional that sent the highest numbers they've had in a while:
 
Frankfort has 3
Sheridan has 2
Rossville has 2
Clinton Central has 2
 
Congrats to those programs!

Sitting in the stands waiting for our next match, some of the other coaches and I got to thinking how some Regionals pit a strong sectional vs a weaker one (our Regional--North Montgomery--being one). I decided to crunch the numbers this morning:
 
North Montgomery Regional SSQs:
Frankfort Sectional: 41
Crawfordsville Sectional: 15 (Zionsville had 9 by themselves, meaning 6 others from the whole sectional)
 
BY comparison, here are the other Regionals in the New Castle Semi-State
 
Pendleton Heights Regional SSQs:
Elwood Sectional: 25
Arsenal Tech: 31
 
Richmond Regional SSQs:
South Dearborn: 33
Shenandoah: 23
 
Perry Meridian SSQs:
Shelbyville: 28
Southport: 28
 
So from this, 2 questions we kicked around:
1) Is this happening at other Regionals, where one sectional dominates the other? If not, question 2 probably doesn't matter.
2) Do we care? Does it matter at all or does it all even out because they are the same Regional anyways?
 
 

I think there’s a lot of variations of this proposal that could work.  You could go with just separating sectionals into two classes initially and schools of all sizes come together in regionals.  That would help address some of the problems.  We could go with more classes, we could go with less.  The goal of this proposal is to address three problems.  1. Sectionals today lack balance.  2. Because Sectionals Lack Balance, Dual Team State criteria is inaccurate and unfair.  3. Only a small number of small school wrestlers make it to state. 
 
I think some may argue that #3 isn’t a problem.  The argument is the best kids should be at state.  Period.  If small school wrestlers aren’t as good, they shouldn’t go. 
 
When we created this proposal, my biggest worry was that the large schools would feel this way and resist the proposal.  They wouldn’t understand the challenges small schools face. They would also see that they face off against more large schools in their sectionals and baulk at that…the optic being that it is a much harder road than facing small schools.  That’s why we favored the big schools in having less teams in sectionals and having many more qualifiers from the classed tourney.  The data from 2020 shows that big schools (33% of the total schools) make up 67% of the wrestlers who qualified for state.  The proposal allows the top 5 wrestlers from 4A and top 5 wrestlers from 3A to attend state.  That’s 62.5%...pretty close to what actually happened in 2020.  The proposal sends the top 4 from 2A to state (that’s 25%).  In 2020, 2A made up 24% of state qualifiers.  Then the proposal sends the top 2 from 1A.  That’s the remaining 12.5%.  This is slightly higher than 2020’s actual 9%.  Not perfect but close.
 
But for a moment, let’s go with the philosophy that the tournament system should always send the best kids to Bankers Life.  No exceptions.  If that’s the case, we still have a problem that needs to be solved.  Issue #1 still is a problem in the current system which organizes by region.  Sectionals, Regionals, and Semi States are not balanced…not even close. The best wrestlers currently don’t make it to state because of this imbalance. 
 
If you set up the sectionals and regionals so that there’s a more even number of large and small schools coming through each, you’re more likely to create balanced sectionals, regionals and semi states. The proposal moves in this direction because we’re basing the sectionals on school size, not by geographic region.
 
When we wrote the proposal, I was worried that big schools wouldn’t understand it.  I was also worried that some small schools in regions where there isn’t imbalance wouldn’t get it either.  If you’re already in a sectional that is all small schools, then you’re already experiencing what this proposal is designed to do.  Here’s a quick case study to illustrate the current imbalance in the system based on geographic regions and not school size. 
 
I see some folks from Adams Central responding, so let’s compare Adams Central and Indianapolis Lutheran.  We’re both 1A schools.  We both had winning dual team records.  Lutheran was 17-6.  Adams Central was 15-9.  The only common opponents we had this season were Jay County and Batesville.  It looks like Batesville wrestled with only 4 wrestlers against Adams Central and 8 wrestlers against Lutheran, so that one doesn’t make sense to compare, so let's look at Jay County.  Adams Central lost to Jay County 42-30 in dual competition.  Lutheran lost to Jay County 39-30.  It suggests that maybe, just maybe, we’re comparable dual teams and maybe, just maybe we have comparable talent on our teams.  (Heyerly is a beast BTW, he’s my pick to win state next year!)
 
Let’s compare sectionals:
 
 Lutheran’s Sectional
Warren Central, 4A
Franklin Central, 4A
Greenfield-Central, 3A
New Palestine, 3A
Shelbyville, 3A
Indianapolis Howe Academy, 2A
Indianapolis Lutheran, 1A
Scecina Memorial, 1A
Triton Central, 1A
Eastern Hancock, 1A
 
Adams Central’s Sectional
Bellmont, 2A.
Jay County, 2A
Norwell, 2A.
Adams Central, 1A.
Blackford, 1A
Bluffton, 1A.
South Adams, 1A,
Southern Wells, 1A
Union City 1A                                                                                                                                       
 
According to a common opponent, we look like comparable teams, but our results are polar opposite.  Lutheran had only 2 wrestlers make it through sectionals.  Adams Central had 8 (four times as many).  Lutheran has 1 wrestler make it through regionals.  Adams Central has 5 make it through regional.  Lutheran has 1 wrestler make it to state.  Adams Central has 3.  Adams Central is invited to Team State.  Lutheran was not invited to Team State.   The difference (in my humble opinion)?  Lutheran has 5 large schools in our sectional.  Adams Central does not.
 
Every season, I’m fighting to retain wrestlers in my program because our sectional sets us back again and again.  If we had 8 wrestlers getting through sectionals each year, if we were getting invited to team state (or at least had a reasonable shot at it), we’d be seeing accelerated growth. 
 
Separating the sectionals based on school size balances sectionals.  It also helps make dual team state criteria more accurate and fair.  If equal numbers of large and small schools come together in later rounds…perhaps semi state…then we’re that much close to making sure the best kids are making it to state.
 
I personally like the proposal as written because I like having a classed state champion and also a grand champion.  But wanted to write this out to help illustrate other positives. This proposal is a roadmap to an approach that balances our sectionals.    

BINGO!!
 
 

I think the part you seem to be grossly missing is that it's not about next year. Or the year after that. Wrestling, as a funded High School sport, won't die in the next 2-5 years. It's in the next 10+ that it may be in trouble. 
 
I think all class wrestling supporters would concede that you're correct, not too many non-wrestlers will suddenly decide to come out just because the tournament is classed and then place that year (though there would probably be a handful). HOWEVER, now we have a situation where success breeds desire to be a part of something. 
 
Let's play a hypothetical: Indiana goes 2 classes for this past season and Cael Albaugh of Clinton Central qualifies and places (made it to semi-state this year, won his sectional, so not too much of a leap). Those other Clinton Central Bulldog football players see this about him and think to themselves "That looks fun, I like Cael and I think I could make it that far as well." Not all of them, mind you, but 2-3 of them. 
 
The following season, 2 Bulldogs make it to state and place. 3-4 others are in the semi-state. Then 3-4 new kids want to come out, and maybe one of them has a little brother or 2, then suddenly those kids are in club, where they would usually just be playing basketball. This sets up Clinton Central for some long term success that they can point to.
 
In 3-4 years, a small school that has 1-2 semi-state qualifiers every 2-3 years, suddenly has a program that can fill most, if not all, weight classes with competitive wrestlers instead of just bodies. The whole sport is better off for it.
 
Will there be programs that struggle no matter what? Yes. And will this scenario play out at every school? No, for sure, not. BUT, if it happens at 1-2 dozen schools in cycles it helps grow the sport in places it's not been flourishing recently.
 
There will always be exceptions of small school kids that overcome the odds and small school programs that find success. But Geography plays a HUGE role in which of those programs find massive success too. But that's a post for another time.
 
 
 
 

Lafayette Jeff Sectional        340    55.20%
Twin Lakes Sectional        276    44.80%
 
 
I disagree.  Had Attica stayed in  the Crawfordsville sectional, the Northmont Regional was a dead end (with the exception of a very few outliers).  
Since the move to Lafayette Jeff (which is relatively balanced with the Twin Lakes Sectional) they have been able to send a hand full of kids to SS for the last few years.  One has to believe the success of those kids has fueled the development of a solid program.  

I totally agree with that.... for this year's results.  I think we are both in agreement that there needs to be a change somehow, somewhere or these small school programs will disappear completely.  

Absolutely it would.  Taking 6-8 kids from our Sectional maybe with a Champ or 2 every year would absolutely help a program grow.  

I have also done Oak Hill/Peru and Lafayette Jeff/Logansport.  They are much more balanced over the 10yr spread.  
The argument is that there is a success factor that helps build programs.  If a program can't have any success at the Sectional/Regional level that program will slowly die.  
 
If there is a balance at the Sectional level, more programs are able to have a chance at having success.  Success breeds success.  
I'm talking programs as a whole.  If you look at Lafayette Jeff Sectional:  Attica went from almost no program, sending nearly no one to North Montgomery Regional to a Class A State team once they were moved to Lafayette Jeff Sectional which is more balanced.  You could also look at the Western/Oak Hill programs for the same comparisons.  Those teams (Western/Oak Hill) continue to rebuild and have success.  Do you think if they had to go through a Sectional like Frankfort they would still have strong programs?  

I have also done Oak Hill/Peru and Lafayette Jeff/Logansport.  They are much more balanced over the 10yr spread.  
The argument is that there is a success factor that helps build programs.  If a program can't have any success at the Sectional/Regional level that program will slowly die.  
 
If there is a balance at the Sectional level, more programs are able to have a chance at having success.  Success breeds success.  
I'm talking programs as a whole.  If you look at Lafayette Jeff Sectional:  Attica went from almost no program, sending nearly no one to North Montgomery Regional to a Class A State team once they were moved to Lafayette Jeff Sectional which is more balanced.  You could also look at the Western/Oak Hill programs for the same comparisons.  Those teams (Western/Oak Hill) continue to rebuild and have success.  Do you think if they had to go through a Sectional like Frankfort they would still have strong programs?  

2018 2019 2020 Total Participants Advancing to Semi-State Total Participants Advancing to Semi-State Total Participants Advancing to Semi-State Frankfort/Zionsville Sectional Crawfordsville Sectional Frankfort/Zionsville Sectional Crawfordsville Sectional Frankfort/Zionsville Sectional Crawfordsville Sectional 2 2 4 0 3 1 2 2 4 0 4 0 2 2 3 1 4 0 3 1 4 0 3 1 2 2 1 3 3 1 3 1 2 2 3 1 3 1 2 2 3 1 2 2 3 1 3 1 2 2 3 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 1 2 2 2 2 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 2 2 4 0 3 1 32 24 41 15 41 15 57.10%   73.20%   73.20%  

After compiling some data over the last 11yrs,  the Frankfort/Zionsville Sectional has completely dominated the Crawfordsville Sectional.  With the constant talk of growing our sport in our state, wouldn't it make sense to try and balance out the competition among Sectionals?  I know that talent and depth will fluctuate from time to time and the results can tip back and forth but a continuous domination should call for a change.  (More than just moving Zionsville over to Crawfordsville, as that didn't change results much)  
Are there any other cases throughout the state similar to this?  Any way, here is the data...
 
 

    TOTAL WRESTLERS ADVANCING TO SEMI-STATE FROM 2010-2020 FRANKFORT/ZIONSVILLE SECTIONAL 434 70.50% CRAWFORDSVILLE SECTIONAL 182 29.50%  
If you would like to see the year by year data I can post that as well.  

After compiling some data over the last 11yrs,  the Frankfort/Zionsville Sectional has completely dominated the Crawfordsville Sectional.  With the constant talk of growing our sport in our state, wouldn't it make sense to try and balance out the competition among Sectionals?  I know that talent and depth will fluctuate from time to time and the results can tip back and forth but a continuous domination should call for a change.  (More than just moving Zionsville over to Crawfordsville, as that didn't change results much)  
Are there any other cases throughout the state similar to this?  Any way, here is the data...
 
 

    TOTAL WRESTLERS ADVANCING TO SEMI-STATE FROM 2010-2020 FRANKFORT/ZIONSVILLE SECTIONAL 434 70.50% CRAWFORDSVILLE SECTIONAL 182 29.50%  
If you would like to see the year by year data I can post that as well.  

After compiling some data over the last 11yrs,  the Frankfort/Zionsville Sectional has completely dominated the Crawfordsville Sectional.  With the constant talk of growing our sport in our state, wouldn't it make sense to try and balance out the competition among Sectionals?  I know that talent and depth will fluctuate from time to time and the results can tip back and forth but a continuous domination should call for a change.  (More than just moving Zionsville over to Crawfordsville, as that didn't change results much)  
Are there any other cases throughout the state similar to this?  Any way, here is the data...
 
 

    TOTAL WRESTLERS ADVANCING TO SEMI-STATE FROM 2010-2020 FRANKFORT/ZIONSVILLE SECTIONAL 434 70.50% CRAWFORDSVILLE SECTIONAL 182 29.50%  
If you would like to see the year by year data I can post that as well.  

Frankfort Sectional has 41 Semi State Qualifiers vs Crawfordsville Sectional having 15.   Are there any other Sectionals that continue to dominate at Regional?  If so, why isn't there a change?  Before Zionsville moved over to Crawfordsville it was much worse.  

Simple Solution:  Don't count forfeits for team score.  Only count matches wrestled.