Y2CJ41 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Looking at the number of swimming and tennis teams in the state, I am not sure we really want to have wrestling in just bigger schools and select small schools. Golf, while a non-revenue sport, does not cost much to have at a high school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 When were the new weight classes announced? 6 months ago? That's not enough time for a kid to start dropping the weight needed? When some of those kids play Football then No its not enough time when you potentially have to get down to a weight class that is even lower than the one they anticipated on wrestling.. 130-160 went from 6 weight classes to 5 weight classes. So if you have 6 returning starters fight for what is now 5 spots that means that someone has to get down even lower than anticipated. So now someone has to go 126. Factor in the weight gain that most kids bulk up for Football, this makes that kid who weighs 142, who was expecting to go 135 to now try to make 126 because he cannot beat the returner at 132 or 138.. So yeah 6 months is not enough. It is just disappointed to lose a weight class where the bulk of the quality wrestlers are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 When some of those kids play Football then No its not enough time when you potentially have to get down to a weight class that is even lower than the one they anticipated on wrestling.. 130-160 went from 6 weight classes to 5 weight classes. So if you have 6 returning starters fight for what is now 5 spots that means that someone has to get down even lower than anticipated. So now someone has to go 126. Factor in the weight gain that most kids bulk up for Football, this makes that kid who weighs 142, who was expecting to go 135 to now try to make 126 because he cannot beat the returner at 132 or 138.. So yeah 6 months is not enough. It is just disappointed to lose a weight class where the bulk of the quality wrestlers are. So how does changing the wwight classes next year solve that problem? If you had a bunch of guys between 170-220, would you be saying the same thing? Seems people want weight classes that help their team only. Look at the bigger picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 What you do not seem to understand is that this situation will happen alot more often at the 130-160 weight range rather than the 170-220 range.. Many more varsity level kids in the 130-160 range will be sitting out or cutting a ton of weight to get into the lineup because the competition in their room is probably far tougher than that at the 170-220 range The bigger picture is that the most competitive weight range is losing a weight class while the least competitive weight range is gaining a class.. I'll leave you with this, I guarantee you that the 126, 132, 138 weight classes prove to be FAR tougher this upcoming year than the 182,195,220.. Disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Many more varsity level kids in the 130-160 range will be sitting out or cutting a ton of weight to get into the lineup You can gain weight to get in the lineup as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Like I said earlier, when you have guys 2 weight classes above and below you that you cannot beat and each one of you are returning starters then that kid is screwed because of the new weight changes... I do not see how you guys cant understand that.. A weight class from the most competitive area has been taken away. So that kid that weighs 142 who cannot beat the guy at 145, 152, 160 has to sit the bench now.. Yeah he can gain 30 pounds and wrestle 170? When 182-220 becomes the most competitive weight range in the state/country then I will feel like the weight change was justified. I highly doubt that will ever happen.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Like I said earlier, when you have guys 2 weight classes above and below you that you cannot beat and each one of you are returning starters then that kid is screwed because of the new weight changes... I do not see how you guys cant understand that.. A weight class from the most competitive area has been taken away. So that kid that weighs 142 who cannot beat the guy at 145, 152, 160 has to sit the bench now.. Yeah he can gain 30 pounds and wrestle 170? When 182-220 becomes the most competitive weight range in the state/country then I will feel like the weight change was justified. I highly doubt that will ever happen.. I understand your point, but who says 126, 132, and 138 are more competitive? There are far more upperclassmen at the higher weight classes, so I would argue it's actually more competitive. It's my opinion that Sliga would be a 2x champ right now if he was at a lower weight class. I actually like the weight classes better. Maybe it keeps kids from cutting as much weight. Try bumping kids up a weight class to make room for that kid. Kids can easily put on a few pounds of muscle and maintain it throughout the season. They will probably be healthier too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Wrestling is more of an individual sport imo..If a kid wrestles off and wins that spot I am not the type of coach to tell that kid that he has to go up a weight class just to fit another kid in.. 126, 132, 138 is FAR more deeper and tougher than 182, 195, 220.. 180-220 will normally have solid tough kids at the 1st-3rd state place finishers but other than that, those weights are no where close to 126-138.. Not even close Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Wrestling is more of an individual sport imo..If a kid wrestles off and wins that spot I am not the type of coach to tell that kid that he has to go up a weight class just to fit another kid in.. 126, 132, 138 is FAR more deeper and tougher than 182, 195, 220.. 180-220 will normally have solid tough kids at the 1st-3rd state place finishers but other than that, those weights are no where close to 126-138.. Not even close It wouldn't be going up a weight "just to fit another kid in" if the coach broke down his line-up when the new weight classes were released and had six months to get his 160 to gain 10-15 good pounds, and his 45/52 to gain 5-10 good pounds. Then the 142 kid that was "screwed" in your scenario fits nicely into the 145 pound slot and voila! you have a stronger team. Everyone wins. 1. Your former 145, 152 and 160 now bring their talent to "less competitive weight classes" and presumably more success. and 2. You get all your best kids in the line up. and 3. No one is cutting excessive weight so they should be able to practice and compete much harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Nope last year we had kids wrestling up to fill the line up.. Now everyone actually weighs what they would have needed for the old weight classes.. I know this is a problem that many other coaches probably have and in a sense its a good problem to have.. Just unfortunate.. My 160 actually weighs 157.. No one can go up.. only can go down.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbulldog152 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Like I said earlier, when you have guys 2 weight classes above and below you that you cannot beat and each one of you are returning starters then that kid is screwed because of the new weight changes... I do not see how you guys cant understand that.. A weight class from the most competitive area has been taken away. So that kid that weighs 142 who cannot beat the guy at 145, 152, 160 has to sit the bench now.. Yeah he can gain 30 pounds and wrestle 170? When 182-220 becomes the most competitive weight range in the state/country then I will feel like the weight change was justified. I highly doubt that will ever happen.. The 142 could just cut 4 pounds to wrestle 138 I'm sure most of the 138 will weigh about 141/142 when the season starts... thats just 2 extra pounds to cut from 140. Though I agree that some teams will have to go outside the wrestling team to fill the 182-220 weight areas and could have two wrestlers that wrestled 5-10 years in the 138 class and could be very experienced in the mid weights but the weight change is gonna effect every team differently. Some teams that are made up of mostly football players could do good because of this while other teams could have a negetive impact. This year will be tough for alot of teams because it's the first year and no matter when the first year was it was going to be hard to move the wrestlers around. Maybe down the road these weight classes will work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Nope last year we had kids wrestling up to fill the line up.. Now everyone actually weighs what they would have needed for the old weight classes.. I know this is a problem that many other coaches probably have and in a sense its a good problem to have.. Just unfortunate.. My 160 actually weighs 157.. No one can go up.. only can go down.. Anyone can go up actually. Wow that is unfortunate that you have 14 kids that fit into weight classes that no longer exist. What are the odds? Also no one says they have to make weight on Thanksgiving and hold that weight all season. Juggle the line up some to allow the "screwed" kid some mat time and take some pressure off another kid to make weight 2/3 times a week. For comparison sakes, our line up and approximate weights: 106 - Weighs about 105 now 112 - Weighs about 115 now 120 - Two are slightly over, One is about 4 lbs under 126 - Weighs about 130-132 now. Other one is at 125 132 - Weighs 135-140. He will be our biggest cutter 138 - Weighs 140, other one is about 135 145 - None over 152 - Weighs 152-155 160 - Weighs 163-165. other one is 155-157 171 - Both are 168-170 182 - Weighs 180 195 - Weighs 190 220 - Weighs 235. Freshman who has plenty of cushion HWT - Weighs 295 - Soph...See above We have 9 guys that have to lose some weight to fit but all will be fairly natural cuts due to the nature of practice and slightly adjusting their eating habits. Our starting 145 from last year would have no chance at 145 this year (we told him this in so many words) and has put on about 15 pound of muscle. He has a much better chance of challenging for the 160-171 slot then he would have had trying to stay down. A side benefit is that he is probably the most improved football player on our team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 The 142 could just cut 4 pounds to wrestle 138 I'm sure most of the 138 will weigh about 141/142 when the season starts... thats just 2 extra pounds to cut from 140. Though I agree that some teams will have to go outside the wrestling team to fill the 182-220 weight areas and could have two wrestlers that wrestled 5-10 years in the 138 class and could be very experienced in the mid weights but the weight change is gonna effect every team differently. Some teams that are made up of mostly football players could do good because of this while other teams could have a negetive impact. This year will be tough for alot of teams because it's the first year and no matter when the first year was it was going to be hard to move the wrestlers around. Maybe down the road these weight classes will work out. agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Good points by everyone.. We, like many other schools have a big bulk of our talent within 10 lbs of each other and have to force alot of guys into 5 weight classes.. Like I said before, it is a great problem to have but as a coach you want to get all of those guys in the line up at where they can be most competitive especially the seniors.. We will find a way to make it work.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Call me "Mr Broken Record" but gaining weight to make a weight is a fantasy. Until every kid is matside weighed in, this will never be a reality. The majority of kids cut to get an advantage and those that don't get manhandled by those that do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Call me "Mr Broken Record" but gaining weight to make a weight is a fantasy. Until every kid is matside weighed in, this will never be a reality. The majority of kids cut to get an advantage and those that don't get manhandled by those that do. So not cutting weight is a disadvantage? It's called a weight room. Do schools not have these anymore? It seems like people are already lining up excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Call me "Mr Broken Record" but gaining weight to make a weight is a fantasy. Until every kid is matside weighed in, this will never be a reality. The majority of kids cut to get an advantage and those that don't get manhandled by those that do. Yep. And to add to that, in a society of over weight kids do we really want to promote gaining weight? Because just like kids cut weight the wrong way they will also attempt to gain weight the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 So not cutting weight is a disadvantage? It's called a weight room. Do schools not have these anymore? It seems like people are already lining up excuses. I'm not lining up excuses at all. The weight changes are in and I'm moving on. And yes, I'm saying that kids that don't cut weight are at a disadvantage. Don't kid yourself. If you don't believe that your delusional.not saying its right but its the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Anyone can go up actually. Wow that is unfortunate that you have 14 kids that fit into weight classes that no longer exist. What are the odds? Also no one says they have to make weight on Thanksgiving and hold that weight all season. Juggle the line up some to allow the "screwed" kid some mat time and take some pressure off another kid to make weight 2/3 times a week. For comparison sakes, our line up and approximate weights: 106 - Weighs about 105 now 112 - Weighs about 115 now 120 - Two are slightly over, One is about 4 lbs under 126 - Weighs about 130-132 now. Other one is at 125 132 - Weighs 135-140. He will be our biggest cutter 138 - Weighs 140, other one is about 135 145 - None over 152 - Weighs 152-155 160 - Weighs 163-165. other one is 155-157 171 - Both are 168-170 182 - Weighs 180 195 - Weighs 190 220 - Weighs 235. Freshman who has plenty of cushion HWT - Weighs 295 - Soph...See above We have 9 guys that have to lose some weight to fit but all will be fairly natural cuts due to the nature of practice and slightly adjusting their eating habits. Our starting 145 from last year would have no chance at 145 this year (we told him this in so many words) and has put on about 15 pound of muscle. He has a much better chance of challenging for the 160-171 slot then he would have had trying to stay down. A side benefit is that he is probably the most improved football player on our team. This has always been important to you to have a team that doesn't cut weight and I applaud you for that. However, looking at the performance of your team last year, you had 5 kids get out of a "favorable" Sectional. You advanced 3 kids to SS out of a "favorable" Regional. Admittedly, you move into the tougher Merrillville SS but advancing 3 kids to SS isn't anything to jump up and down about. You had the 285 state champ and your 89 was pretty tough as well but this should come as no surprise because the culture of your team is to encourage little weight loss so the heavies on your team will be better than average. Encouraging wrestling at walking around weight doesn't hurt you at 285 and typically, guys aren't cutting much at 189 at any school. Where you guys got fairly tore up last year, it looks to me, is from 103 to 171, weights where cutting is typical. In those 11 weight classes you had 3 Regional qualifiers and 1 SS qualifer. I would venture a guess that your guys in those classes ran up against guys that naturally outweighed them anywhere from 10 to 15 pounds. As I've said before, when everyone is on a level playing field as far as weight is concerned and matside weighins are the only answer to this, then I will be all for kids wrestling at their close to walking around weight. Until then, not cutting weight is hurting a wrestlers chances to be successful, typically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I'm not lining up excuses at all. The weight changes are in and I'm moving on. And yes, I'm saying that kids that don't cut weight are at a disadvantage. Don't kid yourself. If you don't believe that your delusional.not saying its right but its the way it is. So cutting weight, dehydrating yourself, losing muscle, and becoming weaker physically is an advantage? I hope you aren't a personal trainer or dietician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 So cutting weight, dehydrating yourself, losing muscle, and becoming weaker physically is an advantage? I hope you aren't a personal trainer or dietician. I'm a realist. I know what I see and I see the vast majority of h.s. wrestlers losing weight outside the boundaries of the ihsaa guidelines. Those that don't find themselves at a severe disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 This has always been important to you to have a team that doesn't cut weight and I applaud you for that. However, looking at the performance of your team last year, you had 5 kids get out of a "favorable" Sectional. You advanced 3 kids to SS out of a "favorable" Regional. Admittedly, you move into the tougher Merrillville SS but advancing 3 kids to SS isn't anything to jump up and down about. You had the 285 state champ and your 89 was pretty tough as well but this should come as no surprise because the culture of your team is to encourage little weight loss so the heavies on your team will be better than average. Encouraging wrestling at walking around weight doesn't hurt you at 285 and typically, guys aren't cutting much at 189 at any school. Where you guys got fairly tore up last year, it looks to me, is from 103 to 171, weights where cutting is typical. In those 11 weight classes you had 3 Regional qualifiers and 1 SS qualifer. I would venture a guess that your guys in those classes ran up against guys that naturally outweighed them anywhere from 10 to 15 pounds. As I've said before, when everyone is on a level playing field as far as weight is concerned and matside weighins are the only answer to this, then I will be all for kids wrestling at their close to walking around weight. Until then, not cutting weight is hurting a wrestlers chances to be successful, typically. The only teams to have more semi-state qualifiers were Penn, Mishawaka, South Bend Clay, South Bend Riley and Warsaw.... not too shabby for a 1A school and one of the smallest schools in the state with wrestling. I am fairly certain all those schools are 4A or 5A schools also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 The only teams to have more semi-state qualifiers were Penn, Mishawaka, South Bend Clay, South Bend Riley and Warsaw.... not too shabby for a 1A school and one of the smallest schools in the state with wrestling. I am fairly certain all those schools are 4A or 5A schools also. my point is that in the first 11 weight classes, to only have one ss qualifier, I think might be an indicator that having those kids wrestling at their walking around weight is putting them at a disadvantage. Taking the top four to ss levels the playing field a little as well. Also, what about five guys coming out of that sectional? Can't look at the final number qualifying for ss alone. They gave themselves little chance to get better numbers to ss with that sectional performance. . I just think it hurts kids when they are always wrestling kids they are outweighed by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 seriousely guys.....other than the upper middle weights (170 - 200) pounds or so.....the changes aren't all that drastic....if you could fill out a team at the old weights, you can fill one out now......just move on, accept the new weights (cause you have no choice anyway), and lets wrestle!.....i mean really?.....is it that big of a deal?......i think not....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 my point is that in the first 11 weight classes, to only have one ss qualifier, I think might be an indicator that having those kids wrestling at their walking around weight is putting them at a disadvantage. Taking the top four to ss levels the playing field a little as well. Also, what about five guys coming out of that sectional? Can't look at the final number qualifying for ss alone. They gave themselves little chance to get better numbers to ss with that sectional performance. . I just think it hurts kids when they are always wrestling kids they are outweighed by. Do some research and look at state qualifiers over the past 5 years for 1A schools and I am willing to bet that there are more at 160lbs+ than at 152lbs and below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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