Reasons for a class system for team state

[bigdanteague]

Yeah just look at the first page on this topic he degrades several people.  Thats besides the point though.  He has lied and miss represented data and made absolutly false alligations of what classless wrestling has done to the sport. 

 

Huh? you are the only one to claim anything is a lie or false? No one can ever make much sense of what you say

[Indian Alum]

Right now happy with DI production, but after the past five years we have had very little DI production.  DII, DIII, and NAIA production is being hurt because of single class wrestling. 

 

Single class or class wrestling has nothing to do with DI production.  We have shown you stats to prove that.  Andrew Howe, Angel Escobedo, etc were not great wrestlers because of single class wrestling.

 

Why do we care about lower class college wrestling?  Many of those kids wrestle those divisions for little to no money, meaning they do it for ..gasp... the love of the sport.  Those wrestlers are more likely to come back as coaches, referees and super fans of the sport.

 

If you are worried about the kids that are doing it for "little to no money or for the love of the sport" and are walking-on  to these DII/DIII/NAIA/JUCO programs, then why do we need class wrestling? A walk-on is a walk-on. I have never heard of any college wrestling coach discouraging walk-ons. All it takes is a phone call or email to the coach expressing your intention to walk on. It won't matter if the kid was a sectional qualifier in our current system or a state place winner in a class system, the kid will have an opportunity to show the coach that they should have an opportunity to claim a roster spot. Class wrestling does nothing to change this.

 

If we are worried about competing at the college level, the reality is there are not that many scholarships available in wrestling. However, the number available in our state really lags behind other wrestling states. If these numbers are correct, we have two DI schools that offer 9.9 scholarships each. We have one DII program that offers 9 scholarships, two DIII that offer zero scholarship, one NAIA that offers 6 scholarships, and zero JUCO programs where colleges can offer up to 16 scholarships. That is a total of 34.8 scholarships per year in the state of Indiana. If all the programs in the nation offer the same breakdown of scholarships, that would rank us 23rd in the nation in the number of college scholarships available for wrestling. If you keep wandering down this slope, that makes it less likely that college wrestlers settle down in our state, which makes it less likely to have quality coaches, which makes it more difficult to compete nationally.

 

My other objection with class wrestling is that I am a firm believer that competition breads success. In our current system, kids are competing against the best available. It forces everyone to raise their level if you intend to compete. Dividing the competition into classes will improve the credentials for kids who are not at the top level, but will do absolutely nothing to improve the quality of the wrestling. If I was a pro class wrestling supporter, I guess my argument would be that it improves interest and participation at the very lowest level of our state. However, improvements at the lowest level in very, very unlikely to have any impact on whether the kid wrestles in college.

 

[Y2CJ41]

I won't argue that as a possibility...but I also have to say it's a matter of putting "all the eggs in one basket".   If it were your money (which is the driving force for the IHSAA) would you not rather spend the cash once and on one venue a week, rather than have to pony up multisite amounts and hope for the fans to pour in?

The safe bet for profit o their investment is renting one dance hall and hoping the people are wanting to dance enough to show up to the only show they offer.

 

The attendance at team regional when they had 16 of them was fine, the attendance at team semi-state and lack of wrestling full varsity squads was the reason for making it eight team regionals.

 

so your not going to at least say that the data you used can not be used for your arguement?  If so you look silly.

The data can be used to show many different things in this argument.  One being class wrestling has not hurt other states and their ability to produce top tier wrestlers.  Another being that Indiana's ability to produce top tier wrestlers has dropped over the past 50 years.  It can also show us that Illinois, Michigan and Ohio have grown in this same time period, while Indiana has not grown.

[KarlHungus]

If you are worried about the kids that are doing it for "little to no money or for the love of the sport" and are walking-on  to these DII/DIII/NAIA/JUCO programs, then why do we need class wrestling? A walk-on is a walk-on. I have never heard of any college wrestling coach discouraging walk-ons. All it takes is a phone call or email to the coach expressing your intention to walk on. It won't matter if the kid was a sectional qualifier in our current system or a state place winner in a class system, the kid will have an opportunity to show the coach that they should have an opportunity to claim a roster spot. Class wrestling does nothing to change this.

 

 

DII, DIII, NAIA, and juco programs still have to actively recruit these "walk-ons"  If they only waited for kids to call them, they wouldn't have enough kids to field a team.  Class wrestling, with more kids getting more exposure to college coaches at an earlier stage in their career, would be a huge benefit to the health of wrestling in the state.

[Y2CJ41]

If you are worried about the kids that are doing it for "little to no money or for the love of the sport" and are walking-on  to these DII/DIII/NAIA/JUCO programs, then why do we need class wrestling? A walk-on is a walk-on. I have never heard of any college wrestling coach discouraging walk-ons. All it takes is a phone call or email to the coach expressing your intention to walk on. It won't matter if the kid was a sectional qualifier in our current system or a state place winner in a class system, the kid will have an opportunity to show the coach that they should have an opportunity to claim a roster spot. Class wrestling does nothing to change this.

 

Very very very few wrestlers walk on to a program without being in contact with the coach previously.  The kids need to be recognized first before they even think about walking on.  Trine, Manchester and Wabash all recruit just like Indianapolis, IU and PU.   They do not sit idly by waiting for kids to show up in their room.

 

If we are worried about competing at the college level, the reality is there are not that many scholarships available in wrestling. However, the number available in our state really lags behind other wrestling states. If these numbers are correct, we have two DI schools that offer 9.9 scholarships each. We have one DII program that offers 9 scholarships, two DIII that offer zero scholarship, one NAIA that offers 6 scholarships, and zero JUCO programs where colleges can offer up to 16 scholarships. That is a total of 34.8 scholarships per year in the state of Indiana. If all the programs in the nation offer the same breakdown of scholarships, that would rank us 23rd in the nation in the number of college scholarships available for wrestling. If you keep wandering down this slope, that makes it less likely that college wrestlers settle down in our state, which makes it less likely to have quality coaches, which makes it more difficult to compete nationally.

There are many opportunities in Illinois and Ohio for our kids.  Yet very few kids go that avenue because Indiana is a very tough state to recruit.  It is hard to tell how good a kid is from one match at the state finals.  It is hard to tell if a kid is collegiate material, but just got rough draws at semi-state.

 

My other objection with class wrestling is that I am a firm believer that competition breads success. In our current system, kids are competing against the best available. It forces everyone to raise their level if you intend to compete. Dividing the competition into classes will improve the credentials for kids who are not at the top level, but will do absolutely nothing to improve the quality of the wrestling. If I was a pro class wrestling supporter, I guess my argument would be that it improves interest and participation at the very lowest level of our state. However, improvements at the lowest level in very, very unlikely to have any impact on whether the kid wrestles in college.

 

That has yet to happen in the 72 years we have had a state tournament.  The small schools aren't rising to the occasion because of the disadvantages.

 

How would class wrestling increase the quality of wrestling?  If a kid gets a taste of success he is more likely to put more time in the offseason at tournaments, RTCs and camps, not the kid that loses in the rattail match at sectional.  I had a kid last year that went to semi-state that after wrestling in the coliseum decided he wanted to now work towards going to state.  He had never done any offseason wrestling before, but went to club practices, camps and tournaments to better himself.  If this starts happening as a freshman or sophomore instead of junior or senior, then the quality improves.

[KarlHungus]

 

My other objection with class wrestling is that I am a firm believer that competition breads success. In our current system, kids are competing against the best available. It forces everyone to raise their level if you intend to compete. Dividing the competition into classes will improve the credentials for kids who are not at the top level, but will do absolutely nothing to improve the quality of the wrestling. If I was a pro class wrestling supporter, I guess my argument would be that it improves interest and participation at the very lowest level of our state. However, improvements at the lowest level in very, very unlikely to have any impact on whether the kid wrestles in college.

 

 

Our best are not the best because of in-state competition.  Howe, Escobedo, Tsirtsis were never challenged by in state competition.

[duck_and_run]

Thats rediculous Y2 your data doesn't show anything.  I could use Olympic wrestling the same way you use your arguement.  I could say back in 1200 a.d. or whenever the first olympics was that Greece Dominated the compitition.  How come other countries beat them at wrestling now?  Musta been because they didn't class there wrestling.  

 

That is your arguement.  You used data from when the states you are talking about were not even being recruited.  Use your head on this one for like 5 minutes maybe you can figure it out.

[Y2CJ41]

Then why over the past 50 years does Florida have more top tier wrestlers than Indiana?  Wrestling has never been all that popular there and they don't even have any four year colleges with wrestling other than some club teams.  What breeds Florida's success while we have more collegiate opportunities and more resources not only in our state but in surrounding ones?

[duck_and_run]

Karl doesn't wrestling Howe, Escobedo, Tsirtis help challange the rest of the competition.  Also I would say there have been sever elete wrestlers that have been challenged by in state opponents.  Wright, Humphreys, McMurray, Quroga, and many others have had tough matches throughout there career.  i would say if anything the Indiana state tournement has made these wrestlers more college ready.  These guys wrestling have also made other wrestlers tougher.  Quroga vs Tsirtis, Tsirtsis vs Jackson, Humphrey vs Irwin, McMurray vs Willis, McMurray vs Quoroz, Quroga vs the 25 other guys he has wrestled.  Maybe you don't see it but there are a ton of good matchups for these guys in Indiana.  I would say some of there best competition all year round.

 

FLorida has the sunkist kids and what not that promoted the sport.  They do a great job with the youth and national tournements. 

[ENoblewrestling]

Y2 why is Florida better than us in Football, Baseball, Basketball as well.  I would say that it comes down to the fact that they have more Atheletes and possibly that atheletics takes on an increased importance for what ever reason in their state.  Also doesnt Brandon's dominance skew their wrestling numbers a bit?

[Y2CJ41]

Sunkist is out of Arizona, nice try.

 

Lets disect these match-ups you claimed helped our kids

Quroga vs Tsirtis

Two elite wrestlers, didn't help any non elite kids

This match-up would have happened if we were in two or three classes

 

Tsirtsis vs Jackson

Jury still out on Jackson, but I bet he is an elite kid too.

This match-up may or may not have happened in a class system as Yorktown is on the bubble.

 

Humphrey vs Irwin

Not even close to a good match-up

This match-up would have happened if we were in two classes

 

McMurray vs Willis

Not even close

This match-up would have happened if we were in two or three classes

 

McMurray vs Quoroz

Note even close

This match-up would have happened if we were in two or three classes

 

Quroga vs the 25 other guys he has wrestled

Again all elite kids(Wright, Harper and Eppert)

These match-ups would have happened if we were in two or three classes

 

[Y2CJ41]

Y2 why is Florida better than us in Football, Baseball, Basketball as well.  I would say that it comes down to the fact that they have more Atheletes and possibly that atheletics takes on an increased importance for what ever reason in their state.  Also doesnt Brandon's dominance skew their wrestling numbers a bit?

 

But number of athletes doesn't matter remember?  If you say number of athletes makes a difference in a state's number of top tier wrestlers, then aren't you saying that number of athletes has an affect on a school's number of top tier wrestlers?  In essence arguing that numbers do matter and thus supporting a reason for classed athletics?

[duck_and_run]

Duckworth vs Howe, Duckworth vs Stien, Phillips vs all his opponents, Janney vs Mish, Janney vs merriville, any matchup vs Matre Dei in the 1990's and 2000's.  Howe vs every single person he wrestled.  Any Ac kid from the 1980's.  I am just saying there is great small school competition out there and its bs to the small school individual and the big school individual not to let it happen.  Quroga had like 20 close matches in indiana last year that helped every single kid he wrestled.  McCray vs McMurray.

[duck_and_run]

How in the hell do you come to the conclusion that class wrestling was the cause for there jump.  You have no facts to back that up.  Your data is flat out crap.  It was from a time that no Florida wrestlers went to college to wrestle.  You fill this board with lies.  Answer me how you have data that doesn't account for 15 states and then say that its a good source to use?  I am getting fed up with your lies and exagerations.

 

 

[ENoblewrestling]

I agree Y2, but I think that shows that the team portion should be classed.  It doenst mean that a single individual from a small school, or small state can't compete.  

[Y2CJ41]

Duckworth vs Howe, Duckworth vs Stien, Phillips vs all his opponents, Janney vs Mish, Janney vs merriville, any matchup vs Matre Dei in the 1990's and 2000's.  Howe vs every single person he wrestled.  Any Ac kid from the 1980's.  I am just saying there is great small school competition out there and its bs to the small school individual and the big school individual not to let it happen.  Quroga had like 20 close matches in indiana last year that helped every single kid he wrestled.  McCray vs McMurray.

Duckworth vs. Stein and Duckworth vs. Howe would happen in a two class system.  Add to that Phillips vs. Petrov.   These match-ups could also have happened at tournaments or duals during the season or in offseason events.  Just like Howe vs. Cooper Samuals did.  

 

[Y2CJ41]

How in the hell do you come to the conclusion that class wrestling was the cause for there jump.  You have no facts to back that up.  Your data is flat out crap.  It was from a time that no Florida wrestlers went to college to wrestle.  You fill this board with lies.  Answer me how you have data that doesn't account for 15 states and then say that its a good source to use?  I am getting fed up with your lies and exagerations.

 

 

Have I ever said that class wrestling was the reason?  No, I have stated that class wrestling has not hindered their ability to produce top tier wrestlers.

 

Feel free to leave any time.

[AJ]

Duckworth vs. Stein and Duckworth vs. Howe would happen in a two class system.  Add to that Phillips vs. Petrov.   These match-ups could also have happened at tournaments or duals during the season or in offseason events.  Just like Howe vs. Cooper Samuals did.  

 

If matches like this happen during the season then we should be hughlighting them and creating exposure for the wrestlers.  We do this for the Traicoff and for the Al Smith.  We have venues that allow the wrestlers to get exposure and wrestle some great competition.  We need to do a better job of getting results and information to the small school in Indiana and surrounding Indiana.

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

I agree Y2, but I think that shows that the team portion should be classed.  It doenst mean that a single individual from a small school, or small state can't compete.  

So you want to hang on the notion that since a few can do it, everyone can do it?  The statistics don't lie, 75/25 over the past 11 years.  There is a great disparity between big schools and small schools.  Saying number of athletes matters one minute then saying it doesn't the next does not make sense.

[Y2CJ41]

If matches like this happen during the season then we should be hughlighting them and creating exposure for the wrestlers.  We do this for the Traicoff and for the Al Smith.  We have venues that allow the wrestlers to get exposure and wrestle some great competition.  We need to do a better job of getting results and information to the small school in Indiana and surrounding Indiana.

 

 

I know I would be more excited about wrestling Carroll if some class bragging rights were involved and it would create some more interest in that meet.  There would potentially be ranked match-ups at 135, 145, and 160.  Plus both teams would possibly be ranked in their team division too.  Boy that would be horrible for the sport, wouldn't it?

[bigdanteague]

How in the hell do you come to the conclusion that class wrestling was the cause for there jump.  You have no facts to back that up.  Your data is flat out crap.  It was from a time that no Florida wrestlers went to college to wrestle.  You fill this board with lies.  Answer me how you have data that doesn't account for 15 states and then say that its a good source to use?  I am getting fed up with your lies and exagerations.

 

 

Are you serious....You sound like such a tool.  It has to be an act.  No person that can find the on switch can type so much drivel.

[AJ]

  Boy that would be horrible for the sport, wouldn't it?

 

Wow, a good post until that last remark.  I love the sarcastic nature and undertones in your posts.

 

 

 

 

 

[AJ]

I know I would be more excited about wrestling Carroll if some class bragging rights were involved and it would create some more interest in that meet.  There would potentially be ranked match-ups at 135, 145, and 160.  Plus both teams would possibly be ranked in their team division too.  Boy that would be horrible for the sport, wouldn't it?

 

Why does it have to be class braggin rights?  I thought that people would not say one class was better than the other. I am not aware of the rivalries in your area, but if Carroll is a rivalry then what more braggin rights do you need?  If you have three weights with studs in them, what makes the difference that they are not each #2.  You, and everyone else, knows that two studs are going to battle at three weight classes.  I would get excited if I heard that.  I do not need all the numbers to make me excited about a dual. 

[ENoblewrestling]

I am one of those people who see the 75/ 25 break down as what it should be given that 75 percent of kids go to big schools.  I also do agree that numbers make a difference in how many indivduals a team takes to state, but what I dont agree with is that we need to have a separate tournament so that we can compete, I dont believe that to be true.  

Also if we are trying to get recognition to all of the deserving atheletes doesn't a classed system acctually screw the big school kids who would not be recognized for making because they dont make it to the big class state, when the same recognition of being a stater goes to a small school kid who was at such a disadvantage that a completly new tournament needed to be made for them, or would we justs have to recognize that making it in the small school tourny is not as much of an accomplishment?  You really cant have it both ways.

[Y2CJ41]

I am one of those people who see the 75/ 25 break down as what it should be given that 75 percent of kids go to big schools.  I also do agree that numbers make a difference in how many indivduals a team takes to state, but what I dont agree with is that we need to have a separate tournament so that we can compete, I dont believe that to be true. 

Also if we are trying to get recognition to all of the deserving atheletes doesn't a classed system acctually screw the big school kids who would not be recognized for making because they dont make it to the big class state, when the same recognition of being a stater goes to a small school kid who was at such a disadvantage that a completly new tournament needed to be made for them, or would we justs have to recognize that making it in the small school tourny is not as much of an accomplishment?  You really cant have it both ways.

I am sure Churubusco, like Garrett, would honor their state qualifiers no matter the class.  They would recognize that it is a great achievement for the individual.  Just as in Ohio where a former coach of mine has a sign outside the town saying "This is the home of state champion Bubba Taylor."