KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 DNR: Calling it bogus and proving it are too different things. You are good at one and the other...not so much. But i really liked the homosexual reference...please don't let up on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Where did you find your statistics? Are you going by what the colleges in the state have done or the wrestlers from that state. Something tells me there is no info on where the individuals were from prior to the 1970's. Another thing is most programs did not start up till after WW2 so yes Indiana is going to have more success when there is less competition. So much has change since the 1960's. I am calling this study bogus. I am saying he went on how the college did and not how the state did. There is not information out there on where a 1928 wrestler was from. Karl I can tell you its not class wrestling. Its that more teams were added after 1943. Indiana had a national championship team and a runner up when there were very few teams wrestling for the title. Thats where I would guess they got the majority of there AA. Wrestlingstats.com It is based off of home state of the individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 The stats don't back up you or DNR. the stats dont back up Y2 or you. If the argument is class wrestling because you can not say it was class wrestling that was the determining factor in those stats. If saying Michigan wrestling is better than Indiana wrestling than maybe the stats shown earlier have some merit. Show me the stat withing the data how it was class wrestling that elevated the other states and how single class has hindered Indiana....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 What about the other 35 states? How many of them have class wrestling and have dropped the number of AA's they have? The other 35 state's numbers are not big enough to garner any type of a coorelation, here is the data though 1961+ Rank 1960 Rank Change AA's 1961+ AA's 1960- 1 3 Pennsylvania 2 488 96 2 2 Iowa 0 337 113 3 10 Ohio 7 305 13 4 1 Oklahoma -3 268 256 5 4 Illinois -1 236 63 6 13 California 7 231 7 7 5 New York -2 201 29 7 6 New Jersey -1 201 28 9 8 Michigan -1 174 23 10 9 Minnesota -1 121 22 11 20 Oregon 9 120 4 12 17 Wisconsin 5 79 4 13 15 Colorado 2 67 6 14 13 Virginia -1 56 7 15 28 Washington 13 52 0 16 28 Florida 12 42 0 17 26 Missouri 9 39 1 18 7 Indiana -11 38 26 18 28 South Dakota 10 38 0 20 28 Arizona 8 37 0 21 11 Kansas -10 35 13 22 28 Montana 6 34 0 23 16 Maryland -7 32 3 24 28 Idaho 4 29 0 25 28 Utah 3 23 0 26 12 Nebraska -14 18 10 27 28 Tennessee 1 16 0 28 28 Nevada 0 14 0 29 28 North Dakota -1 13 0 30 22 North Carolina -8 11 2 31 16 Wyoming -15 10 5 31 22 New Mexico -9 10 2 31 26 Texas -5 10 1 31 28 Georgia -3 10 0 35 26 Massachusetts -9 9 1 35 28 Delaware -7 9 0 37 22 West Virginia -15 8 2 38 28 South Carolina -10 6 0 38 28 Hawaii -10 6 0 40 20 Rhode Island -20 4 3 41 26 Louisiana -15 3 1 41 28 Kentucky -13 3 0 41 28 New Hampshire -13 3 0 44 28 Alaska -16 2 0 45 22 Connecticut -23 1 2 States without an All-American EVER Alabama Arkansas Maine Mississippi Vermont Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 I thought class wrestling discussions were banned until after state. I think everyone that has been involved in this discussion should be suspended from the board for a week for violating board rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 They have said that class wrestling will not decrease quality. but it wont increase quality either They have said that class wrestling will allow more wrestlers to appear on the college radar earlier in their career. (all levels) but it is National tournaments that place kids on the radar....our own Y2 had a wrestler place at Fargo one year, and not make it to state that year, and he recieved some college attention. They have said that class wrestling could be a shot in the arm to those schools struggling to fill rosters because they may have a realistic chance at post season success. cutting weight classes and making it more competitive to make the varsity team would also prove as a solution to this. take it from 14 to just 12 would supply a huge equalizer as well. I dont hear anyone pushing that idea.... They have said if more Indiana wrestlers get noticed by colleges of all levels earlier in their career, there is a higher likelyhood of Indiana kids wrestling in college, giving back to the sport by coaching, thus raising the level of coaching quality in the state. I am all for improving the coaching n Indiana. However, I hope most of the young men would also consider going into other professions that would benefit their society and community...doctors, lawyers, vets, detectives, school administration, etc... still helping in the wrestling room though when they have a chance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Alex, Reece, and Andrew, etc. were all going to be great no matter what system they wrestled under. They were all wrestling national competitions for years. They were all nationally ranked due to this competition. That is the culture we need to work on. Being in a class system with four timers in the bottom class who have 50 career losses and a 30-15 senior season is really not going to help indiana compete with states like michigan for all american wrestlers. If you want to lobby the IHSAA for rule changes to make indiana wrestling better, ask them to remove the travel restrictions for tournaments and let our best go to the Beast of East and tournaments like that. So you are saying our elite wrestlers are good because of something other than the single class system....hmmm. Where are there 15 loss kids winning state? I just looked at the smallest class in Michigan's state champions last year and they all had 4 or less losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 I know that pre WW2 college wrestling did not have many teams. I also know that Indiana University had 6 in the semis in 1939 and still lost the team title. THats 6 AA in one year previous to WW2. There were only 15 states on the list with over 6 AA prior to 1961. Y2 didn't care to mention that because is shows that wrestling wasn't popular in 35 other states untill after 1961. Congrats to Y2 skewing the data to make it look like everyone else was an idiot. Skew the facts truth is your just fudging the data to make it look like its something its not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 How did Florida, Washington and South Dakota jump over us then? Those states don't have 3 top 10 states on their boarders like we do. How come Illinois, Michigan and Ohio either stay the same or get better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 but it wont increase quality either Never was a big argument of mine, but classless supporters have gone on and on about how it would decrease the quality. That's all that data was attempting to show. but it is National tournaments that place kids on the radar....our own Y2 had a wrestler place at Fargo one year, and not make it to state that year, and he recieved some college attention. read in the parentheses. that is why I said all classes. Wabash, Trine, Findlay, and Indianapolis are not recruiting based on fargo results. If we had a system where kids got on the radar of these other schools we might have more wrestlers actually compete in college and that would increase the future coaching quality. cutting weight classes and making it more competitive to make the varsity team would also prove as a solution to this. take it from 14 to just 12 would supply a huge equalizer as well. I dont hear anyone pushing that idea.... Maybe that is why other states have class wrestling. To equalize opportunity? Has not proven to be an issue in those states. Why is Indiana different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 the stats dont back up Y2 or you. If the argument is class wrestling because you can not say it was class wrestling that was the determining factor in those stats. If saying Michigan wrestling is better than Indiana wrestling than maybe the stats shown earlier have some merit. Show me the stat withing the data how it was class wrestling that elevated the other states and how single class has hindered Indiana....... Your the one that said DNR speaks the truth about his unqualified statement that "class wrestling shows no corelation"...in your opinion. Y2 shows actual data indicating a possible corelation. DNR and yourself show nothing but unqualified opinion. Sorry but the data wins in this case. Quality of wrestling is but one factor in a host of positives about class wrestling. Classless wrestling is a personal preference with very little redeeming value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md85 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 So you are saying our elite wrestlers are good because of something other than the single class system....hmmm. Where are there 15 loss kids winning state? I just looked at the smallest class in Michigan's state champions last year and they all had 4 or less losses. Was over in Missouri and the school there had a state champ 40-11. Bet the colleges were climbing all over him. "I'm a state champ. The best in the state, well accept for those other 7 guys." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 State Individuals AAs 1928-1961 Oklahoma 256 Iowa 113 Pennsylvania 96 Illinois 63 New York 29 New Jersey 28 Indiana 26 Minnesota 22 Michigan 23 Ohio 13 Kansas 13 Nebraska 10 Colorado 6 California 7 Virginia 7 These are the real numbers of AA 1928-1961. I have some big problems with these stats. If anything doesn't is show that wrestling wasn't popular in several states till after the 1960's? Y2 chose to use the jump in teams compared to the real numbers because he knew it would look bad. Florida did not even have a single AA. How can Y2 say that they jumped us because of class wrestling? Truth is wrestlling most states were 20 to 40 years behind us in starting into the sport heavily. They jumped us because they got into the sport as a state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 College recruiters are not going to be fooled by people who win state titles that are not college level wrestlers. Class wrestling does nothing for recruiting purposes at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Was over in Missouri and the school there had a state champ 40-11. Bet the colleges were climbing all over him. "I'm a state champ. The best in the state, well accept for those other 7 guys." Still not 15 losses and a .667 winning percentage. We had a kid in Indiana that is top 4 with 13 losses. WOW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 State Individuals AAs 1928-1961 Oklahoma 256 Iowa 113 Pennsylvania 96 Illinois 63 New York 29 New Jersey 28 Indiana 26 Minnesota 22 Michigan 23 Ohio 13 Kansas 13 Nebraska 10 Colorado 6 California 7 Virginia 7 These are the real numbers of AA 1928-1961. I have some big problems with these stats. If anything doesn't is show that wrestling wasn't popular in several states till after the 1960's? Y2 chose to use the jump in teams compared to the real numbers because he knew it would look bad. Florida did not even have a single AA. How can Y2 say that they jumped us because of class wrestling? Truth is wrestlling most states were 20 to 40 years behind us in starting into the sport heavily. They jumped us because they got into the sport as a state. I have stated this numerous times, these stats show class wrestling has not hurt those states. Class wrestling has not hindered their ability to produce high quality wrestlers. Something has happened where states that are not known as good wrestling states to jump over us. States like Florida, South Dakota, Washington and Oregon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 College recruiters are not going to be fooled by people who win state titles that are not college level wrestlers. Class wrestling does nothing for recruiting purposes at all. John Smith does not agree with you. You think of college only at the Div. 1 level. I think of all levels. If we had class wrestling, kids might think find the right level for them sooner in their HS career rather than the current trend of winning a state championship, walking on at IU or PU, then not wrestling at all after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 South Dakota??? I mean...come on. If South Dakota is outperforming us, we should blow up the system and start all over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 . Y2 shows actual data indicating a possible corelation. D possible correlation means nothing.. it is specualtion as well. you just have a higher opinion of the data so you see a "possible" correlation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 possible correlation means nothing.. it is specualtion as well. you just have a higher opinion of the data so you see a "possible" correlation. I know...crazy me to prefer data to personal feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Short Jay Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 We also need to look at the sports that are being offered in some states. South Dakota doesn't offer swimming/diving in the winter months or baseball in the spring. Also, more schools wrestle in SD than play football. Less competition for athletes amongst coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Never was a big argument of mine, but classless supporters have gone on and on about how it would decrease the quality. That's all that data was attempting to show. as a single class supporter, I have always maintained that the system should not be changed unless it will improve the quality of wrestling, not only quantity. read in the parentheses. that is why I said all classes. Wabash, Trine, Findlay, and Indianapolis are not recruiting based on fargo results. If we had a system where kids got on the radar of these other schools we might have more wrestlers actually compete in college and that would increase the future coaching quality. I read the parenthesis but wasnt sure exactly what it meant. What happened to the system of a coach and a wrestler sending out materials to schools? That is how my brother recieved his scholarship to DII Limestone College in South Carolina. Also, those local state schools do a good to great job of recruting in Indiana as it is. Simply look at their rosters, they are full of Indiana wrestlers. Maybe that is why other states have class wrestling. To equalize opportunity? Has not proven to be an issue in those states. Why is Indiana different? I used the phrase equalize opportunity because many proclass wrestling supporters talk about it bein an unequal system. Just pointing out that there are other solutions to their percieved problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikev Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 michigan uses the class system......my friends son was the state champ one year (from a 2A sized school) but had 5 losses that year all to 3 kids from 5A sized schools that didn't even place at their state tournament...... so he's a state champ but billy, bobby and buddy (who all beat him) aren't.......does that make any sense?.....if you're the best at your weight it makes no difference how big your school is.......now, from a team standpoint, i think in most cases size does matter - more kids give you more to choose from - there will always be the small schools here and there that are good.....but that is mostly because they have top notch programs and coaches......my vote is no class system....let the best be the best and everyone else licking their chops wishing they were on top....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 I know...crazy me to prefer data to personal feelings. it is NOT data...it is numbers that show nothing yet you keep saying they do. you use them to try and back up your personal feelings.. not one piece of data that has been shown has backed up anything you or Y2 have said about class wrestling. you have an opinion and you use numbers to create an illusion that it actually supports your point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 College recruiters are not going to be fooled by people who win state titles that are not college level wrestlers. Class wrestling does nothing for recruiting purposes at all. DI coaches mainly care about national success and credentials. DII and DIII schools are going to look at in-state success. They are looking for the kids that are diamonds in the rough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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