The Generals Dad Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I would like to hear more about how class wrestling would help the small schools fill their teams. Is there any data that suggests that numbers increased significantly AFTER a class system was implemented - I don't think you can justify it by saying states with class wrestling have more participants unless those numbers grew AFTER the system was changed. I am not saying it isn't possible, but I would personally be suprised if that is what would get a kid at a small school to come out for wrestling. Again, just my personal opinion, but you don't have to promise a kid a state championship to get them to come out for wrestling - a letter, a conference championship, a sectional championship would seem to be more than enough to get a kid to participate. If coaches are relying on class wrestling to automatically increase the number of kids who participate to increase, I think that is being a little naive. What is a bigger problem for small school coaches, competing with basketball in state that has built its reputation on that sport or kids thinking they are at a disadvantage when it comes to winning a state championship. If you want to increase your numbers, I think you should start figuring out how to get your best athletes to wrestle instead of playing basketball and I don't think that involves classes. I would suggest growing some relationships with kids at a young age so they might want to be a part of your team when they get older instead of playing basketball. How do small sections of the state become better than the rest of the state? Do they have more large schools, or do they have coaches who are working together to increase the talent and skill of the kids in that area. Ft. Wayne is the second largest city in the state and it has been performing worse than the southern portion of the state where the schools are generally smaller. You can call me a caveman because I don't believe the IHSAA will implement the class system in a way that will benefit very many kids. I think the current tournament is great for the kids and the fans - remember the kids who are eliminated in the earlier rounds count as fans at the state tournament also. They see what kids from small schools can do when given the opportunity. I don't like the idea of changing to a class system because the tournament is currently outstanding and trusting a bureaucracy with little accountability like the IHSAA to do something right is a pretty big leap of faith. I see a lot of complaints from coaches and the coaches association with wrestle-backs currently, what makes you believe they will set up the classed tournament and listen to the coaches in the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I would like to hear more about how class wrestling would help the small schools fill their teams. Is there any data that suggests that numbers increased significantly AFTER a class system was implemented - I don't think you can justify it by saying states with class wrestling have more participants unless those numbers grew AFTER the system was changed. I am not saying it isn't possible, but I would personally be suprised if that is what would get a kid at a small school to come out for wrestling. Again, just my personal opinion, but you don't have to promise a kid a state championship to get them to come out for wrestling - a letter, a conference championship, a sectional championship would seem to be more than enough to get a kid to participate. If coaches are relying on class wrestling to automatically increase the number of kids who participate to increase, I think that is being a little naive. Specific numbers will be hard to gather since most states went to classes in the 1970's or 80's or even before that time. I know Oregon has had significant growth, so much that they added two more classes because more schools added wrestling. No one has ever stated that class wrestling is a magic formula and coaches won't have to work hard to have success or to improve wrestling. It will still take work to help improve the wrestling in the state. Can you show me where class wrestling has hurt a state's participation numbers? Small schools in a two classed system would get 75% more state qualifiers. Tell me what team in the state wouldn't get more kids out if they are now getting 75% more state qualifiers. That will help promote the sport at the small school level and increase the numbers along with the number of kids that possibly stick around wrestling longer as a parent, fan, coach or even referee. What is a bigger problem for small school coaches, competing with basketball in state that has built its reputation on that sport or kids thinking they are at a disadvantage when it comes to winning a state championship. If you want to increase your numbers, I think you should start figuring out how to get your best athletes to wrestle instead of playing basketball and I don't think that involves classes. I would suggest growing some relationships with kids at a young age so they might want to be a part of your team when they get older instead of playing basketball. Lets see, our basketball team won sectional last year with a losing record. This year they won sectional with a barely over .500 record. Our wrestling team had a 20-1 record in 2004 and got 4th at sectional and this year we were 25-4 and were 3rd at sectional. You pretend to be a kid.... which sounds more enticing? Our two best teams in the history of our wrestling program can't even get a sniff of a sectional title while the basketball team contends for one each and every year. How do small sections of the state become better than the rest of the state? Do they have more large schools, or do they have coaches who are working together to increase the talent and skill of the kids in that area. Ft. Wayne is the second largest city in the state and it has been performing worse than the southern portion of the state where the schools are generally smaller. Actually the Fort Wayne semi-state has the least amount of students in it. I have the numbers at work, but it was quite surprising that the Fort Wayne area is not even close to being more populated than Evansville. You also must add into the mix that the biggest schools in Fort Wayne do NOT have middle school wrestling. You can call me a caveman because I don't believe the IHSAA will implement the class system in a way that will benefit very many kids. I think the current tournament is great for the kids and the fans - remember the kids who are eliminated in the earlier rounds count as fans at the state tournament also. They see what kids from small schools can do when given the opportunity. I don't like the idea of changing to a class system because the tournament is currently outstanding and trusting a bureaucracy with little accountability like the IHSAA to do something right is a pretty big leap of faith. I see a lot of complaints from coaches and the coaches association with wrestle-backs currently, what makes you believe they will set up the classed tournament and listen to the coaches in the future? If a classed system would be implemented in the same fashion the other tournaments are, I would see no way of messing it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Generals Dad Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 1. I am not saying it can't help participation, but I am not asking to change the system. If this is a reason for changing the system, I think someone should have to back it up with how it affected participation after a change. 2. Just pointing out that if you want to make a big change in participation, you would be better off figuring out how to get kids to participate in the current system than believing classes will magically do trick. You will still be competing with basketball for kids after classes are in place. 3. I was suprised to see Ft. Wayne had fewer kids than the southern portion of the state. I always thought in football there were more schools in the north than the south and you could see Indianapolis and surrounding areas placed in the south to balance out the sectionals. Not saying it is incorrect, just suprising. 4. You are more trusting than I. I like the current tournament. I really think if you want to change the system, you are going to have to talk money with the IHSAA. If they are making more money since they classed basketball, I would guess it is inevitable that they will class wrestling. If they haven't, we are probably safe for a while. Not sure how they see the current tournament as a money maker. I think the state tournament pulls in a decent amount for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 What I would like to see personally, is the expansion of the tournament from 224 to 448 qualifiers. I know we talk about class wrestling all the time, and wrestlebacks get shot down year after year. But has there ever been discussion or plan about expanding the tournament at one of those board meetings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Another question I would like to ask what will we do after the state starts consolidating all these schools like they say there going to. Everyone may be in one class in the next 10 years. Y2j you never look at the downsides because this issue would hurt your situation. People who hae have voted and your wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Another question I would like to ask what will we do after the state starts consolidating all these schools like they say there going to. Everyone may be in one class in the next 10 years. Y2j you never look at the downsides because this issue would hurt your situation. People who hae have voted and your wrong. Cap'n America: The state is not going to consolidate anything. Show me some data that classed basketball has hurt the sport. People have voted and there is still a difference of opinion. What is silly is your ranting and name calling all while trying to wrap yourself in the American flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 In the 1990's an estimated 1.55 million people attended high school state tournement games. Now the numbers are about one third of that. In 1990 41,046 fans attended the state finals where today only 31,828 fans watch all four of the games combined. There's your numbers. It hurts the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 In the 1990's an estimated 1.55 million people attended high school state tournement games. Now the numbers are about one third of that. In 1990 41,046 fans attended the state finals where today only 31,828 fans watch all four of the games combined. There's your numbers. It hurts the sport. Do you realize that both sessions at the basketball state finals are sold out? Therefore they cannot get any more people into the building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Even if thats the case the numbers for the whole tournement are down to about a third of what they were. They may be on a rise but I truly dought there will be anything close to how it was before the classing of the sport. Thats a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Even if thats the case the numbers for the whole tournement are down to about a third of what they were. They may be on a rise but I truly dought there will be anything close to how it was before the classing of the sport. Thats a fact. The IHSAA has not gone bankrupt in the last 12 years so it must not be hurting the bank account. I have never seen enthusiasium higher in places like Triton, Rochester and Oregon-Davis in the last few years. Overall attendance is down but I interest has never been higher in schools that had virtually no chance to compete in the one class system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 In the 1990's an estimated 1.55 million people attended high school state tournement games. Now the numbers are about one third of that. In 1990 41,046 fans attended the state finals where today only 31,828 fans watch all four of the games combined. There's your numbers. It hurts the sport. It would be nice if the numbers were correct. The all time record for attendance was 1,554,454 in 1962. There were under a million attendees in Damon Bailey's year of 1990. Class basketball's attendance and profitability has increased over the past few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Yeah it has risen in the past few years but is still way down since the classing of basketball has started. It may rise above it someday but we are still years away and there is no telling if it will ever happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Yeah it has risen in the past few years but is still way down since the classing of basketball has started. It may rise above it someday but we are still years away and there is no telling if it will ever happen Attendance was dropping after the Damon Bailey era, that is why they stopped having the state finals at the Hoosier Dome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Yeah it has risen in the past few years but is still way down since the classing of basketball has started. It may rise above it someday but we are still years away and there is no telling if it will ever happen In the 1990's an estimated 1.55 million people attended high school state tournement games. Now the numbers are about one third of that. In 1990 41,046 fans attended the state finals where today only 31,828 fans watch all four of the games combined. There's your numbers. It hurts the sport. It would be nice if the numbers were correct. The all time record for attendance was 1,554,454 in 1962. There were under a million attendees in Damon Bailey's year of 1990. Class basketball's attendance and profitability has increased over the past few years. Weren't you the one talking about skewed numbers? If the trend is upward I can't see how you can say it is hurting the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Actually a new stadium helped with that. Im not going to argue but the numbers are down on a whole. Just say that and whatever you like afterwards the key to me is the whole numbers. The Ihsaa is a business and it thrives by attendance and things like that so bottom line it isn't as proffitable as it was. Ps. I can scew whatever the numbers are still down on a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 In the 1990's an estimated 1.55 million people attended high school state tournement games. Now the numbers are about one third of that. In 1990 41,046 fans attended the state finals where today only 31,828 fans watch all four of the games combined. There's your numbers. It hurts the sport. It would be nice if the numbers were correct. The all time record for attendance was 1,554,454 in 1962. There were under a million attendees in Damon Bailey's year of 1990. Class basketball's attendance and profitability has increased over the past few years. Aren't you the one who keeps complaining about y2's skewed data yet you try to tell us that attendance was 1.5 million in the 90s? You then say that you DOUBT that attendance will rise to pre-class levels and then say that is a FACT? How are we to take you seriously with that kind of logic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Then why hasn't the IHSAA gone back to a single class system if the numbers are down and they are losing so much money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Im not going to argue . Ps. I can scew whatever Your not?!? Skew away. You have yet to provide any evidence that y2's data is skewed. In your first attempt at providing data I have proved you lied about numbers. You can back pedal all you want now but your credibility is diminished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Its because the Ihsaa won't change back once we have something we are usually stuck with it they have a bad time admitting fault. Y2 doesn't scew facts he just sees what he wants to in them and doesn't look at anything else. Ex. Illinois voted on a whole and they do not support class wrestling. Y2j: " women who smoke over the age of 45 did believe that class wrestling was a good thing for the sport." thats kinda far fetched but he took the coaches into account. By taking coaches many of those who voted on the results is kinda like taking a bill through congress right now that doesn't work and then asking the democrats what they thought of it. The answer is always to not turn your back on your descisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire77 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 does anybody think the fact the state championship games ( football, basketball ) are all on television hurts the attendance any. also the state basketball tourney used to be played in with a morning session and then finals in the evening. so 4 team competed for the title and the fans of the teams that lost in the morning already had tickets so they went to the finals. i have been on both sides of the morning sessions wins and loses. i already drove 3 hours so why not go to the finals while you are there. today the fans of the teams that get beat at the semi state ( reg for team wrestling) don't go the next weekend to indy for the finals and the attendance is less. team wrestling is still close because there are still 8 teams at state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Its because the Ihsaa won't change back once we have something we are usually stuck with it they have a bad time admitting fault. Y2 doesn't scew facts he just sees what he wants to in them and doesn't look at anything else. Ex. Illinois voted on a whole and they do not support class wrestling. Y2j: " women who smoke over the age of 45 did believe that class wrestling was a good thing for the sport." thats kinda far fetched but he took the coaches into account. By taking coaches many of those who voted on the results is kinda like taking a bill through congress right now that doesn't work and then asking the democrats what they thought of it. The answer is always to not turn your back on your descisions. You have said he skewed the data numerous times. For good or bad we don't live in a pure democracy and an internet poll does not determine decisions made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Basically i think that television exposure should help attendance. It gets people involved with the tournement and makes them want to be a part of it. Someone needs to get wrestling news out there better. That would help our cause I know. Classing is silly take 16 teams instead of 8 just don't class the thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Classing is silly take 16 teams instead of 8 just don't class the thing. Wouldn't that just water down the compeition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Im not saying there an internet poll will determine the outcome, but I am saying the people don't want it. If we elect you into office you have an obligation to listen to the peoples thoughts. You work for us after all. You can go your own route but then again the people will be electing the next tiem arround and it may be your last term in a lead position. So you work for us listen to us is all i am saying, and whoever votess it to class will have some serious outcry for them to loose at the next election cycle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Im not saying there an internet poll will determine the outcome, but I am saying the people don't want it. If we elect you into office you have an obligation to listen to the peoples thoughts. You work for us after all. You can go your own route but then again the people will be electing the next tiem arround and it may be your last term in a lead position. So you work for us listen to us is all i am saying, and whoever votess it to class will have some serious outcry for them to loose at the next election cycle The IHSAA executive board is not elected by the people, they are elected by high school principals and ADs. High school principals and athletic directors are not voted for by the people, they are selected by school boards. School boards are elected by the people. I did not see school board elections affected by the change to class basketball. There was every opportunity to elect school board members that would represent a single class view that would then carry over to the IHSAA. Why did this not happen? Because the majority of schools like the classed system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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