Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The status quo nationwide is to have classes. Reasons probably have nothing to do with the quality of wrestling but more about creating an equitable playing field (ala Div 1, Div 2 and Div 3 in the NCAA) and of course $$$. Besides, Indiana already classes other sports. Be consistant. We are talking about whether or not to class wrestling in Indiana. The status quo is not classed. Are there really no other ways to improve wrestling in Indiana that are less controversial than classing (especially when it's not entirely clear that classing will improve it)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I would like to see a survey sent out at the State Finals discussing various subjects (class wrestling, wrestlebacks to name a couple) for each head coach there. We could get a better gauge of where we stand on those subjects. Unless it's already been done, I don't know really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Last year we had a list of the members and their schools. Could a little survey and questions as to the attitudes done in house answer some of the membership questions. A few area rep meeting might be nice rather than a onetime shot in Indianapolis. An excellent idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I counted 136 schools represented. I don't care what kind of proposal you are submitting or who you are submitting it to, its going to be hard to get it passed with 44% supporting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The status quo nationwide is to have classes. Reasons probably have nothing to do with the quality of wrestling but more about creating an equitable playing field (ala Div 1, Div 2 and Div 3 in the NCAA) and of course $$$. Besides, Indiana already classes other sports. Be consistant. We are talking about whether or not to class wrestling in Indiana. The status quo is not classed. Are there really no other ways to improve wrestling in Indiana that are less controversial than classing (especially when it's not entirely clear that classing will improve it)? Status quo from who, fans, coaches, wrestlers, principals, administrators? I believe that the coaches association voted for classed wrestling in 2001 with an overwhelming majority. I highly doubt that the opinions have changed back to single class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The status quo nationwide is to have classes. Reasons probably have nothing to do with the quality of wrestling but more about creating an equitable playing field (ala Div 1, Div 2 and Div 3 in the NCAA) and of course $$$. Besides, Indiana already classes other sports. Be consistant. We are talking about whether or not to class wrestling in Indiana. The status quo is not classed. Are there really no other ways to improve wrestling in Indiana that are less controversial than classing (especially when it's not entirely clear that classing will improve it)? I don't think it would be controversial to have classes....the rest of the country figured it was the right thing decades ago. The controversy is why we still have one class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I counted 136 schools represented. I don't care what kind of proposal you are submitting or who you are submitting it to, its going to be hard to get it passed with 44% supporting it. True... might of been best to do such a thing at the sectional meetings or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The thing is by joining the IHSWCA you are saying you support the organization and by not joining you are directly or indirectly(you decide) stating you do not support them. Until we get a stronger membership base the proposals will be shot down each and every time no matter how common sense they may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The status quo nationwide is to have classes. Reasons probably have nothing to do with the quality of wrestling but more about creating an equitable playing field (ala Div 1, Div 2 and Div 3 in the NCAA) and of course $$$. Besides, Indiana already classes other sports. Be consistant. We are talking about whether or not to class wrestling in Indiana. The status quo is not classed. Are there really no other ways to improve wrestling in Indiana that are less controversial than classing (especially when it's not entirely clear that classing will improve it)? Status quo from who, fans, coaches, wrestlers, principals, administrators? I believe that the coaches association voted for classed wrestling in 2001 with an overwhelming majority. I highly doubt that the opinions have changed back to single class. The status quo for everyone in Indiana. The current set up we have is a single class system. Therefore a single class system is the status quo. Status quo - noun. the existing state or condition. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/status%20quo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The status quo for the surrounding states is classes.... why is our status quo so different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Is it possible that coaches are not joining the IHSWCA because of the organization? There was a topic earlier in the year where some coaches discussed how the felt jaded by the organization. Maybe we need to overhaul our organization, or possibly tweak it a little. When that few coaches are a part of the coaches organization, there will be more than 1 or 2 reasons for the low enrollment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The status quo for the surrounding states is classes.... why is our status quo so different? Well eventually everyone around us will come to their senses and see our way of thinking. ;D Ah, this topic is just too much fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The status quo nationwide is to have classes. Reasons probably have nothing to do with the quality of wrestling but more about creating an equitable playing field (ala Div 1, Div 2 and Div 3 in the NCAA) and of course $$$. Besides, Indiana already classes other sports. Be consistant. We are talking about whether or not to class wrestling in Indiana. The status quo is not classed. Are there really no other ways to improve wrestling in Indiana that are less controversial than classing (especially when it's not entirely clear that classing will improve it)? I don't think it would be controversial to have classes....the rest of the country figured it was the right thing decades ago. The controversy is why we still have one class Your last sentence admits that there is a controversy. Some are on the side of one class, others are on the side of multiple classes (just look at this thread - there are already 24 pages of discussion). Surely there are solutions to improving wrestling in Indiana that everyone can support. For example, programs like CIA undoubtedly help improve it. So do USA wrestling clubs around the state. Granted, those things take a lot of time and hard work from a lot of individuals, but they are the types of things that the entire Indiana wrestling community will support. Do other states that have more success than Indiana have more of such programs and clubs? What else are they doing to maintain an edge over us? Is class wrestling the best or only answer? Does it even provide the answer? What's the best evidence that it does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 There are numerous reasons for such a low membership, feel free to survey Tony Abbot as to why he's not a member or any of the other 170+ head coaches that aren't members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Your last sentence admits that there is a controversy. Some are on the side of one class, others are on the side of multiple classes (just look at this thread - there are already 24 pages of discussion). I do admit there is a controversy but I what I don't understand is why? Would it not follow that there would be groups in other states clamoring for 1 class and 1 true state champion if this is so controversial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The status quo for the surrounding states is classes.... why is our status quo so different? Because the definition of status quo is the "existing state or condition". Our "existing state or condition" is a single class. The "existing state or condition" for other surrounding states is multiple classes. My point is that supporters of a class system in Indiana have the burden of proof with regard to whether we should change Indiana's status quo. The only proof that has been provided is apparent benefits that other states have realized after going to a classed system that may or may not have been caused by the change to a classed system. On the other hand there are states with class systems don't appear to have realized any significant benefits after the conversion. Have we ruled out other less controversial methods which have a proven track record to improve wrestling in Indiana? If not, why spend our time focusing on the controversial ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I do admit there is a controversy but I what I don't understand is why? Would it not follow that there would be groups in other states clamoring for 1 class and 1 true state champion if this is so controversial? Maybe there is but the state associations are saying, "We would like to go back to a single system... but gosh darnit. Look at all the money we're making!!!" ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I do admit there is a controversy but I what I don't understand is why? Would it not follow that there would be groups in other states clamoring for 1 class and 1 true state champion if this is so controversial? Maybe there is but the state associations are saying, "We would like to go back to a single system... but gosh darnit. Look at all the money we're making!!!" ;D Or maybe not. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The status quo for the surrounding states is classes.... why is our status quo so different? Because the definition of status quo is the "existing state or condition". Our "existing state or condition" is a single class. The "existing state or condition" for other surrounding states is multiple classes. My point is that supporters of a class system in Indiana have the burden of proof with regard to whether we should change Indiana's status quo. The only proof that has been provided is apparent benefits that other states have realized after going to a classed system that may or may not have been caused by the change to a classed system. On the other hand there are states with class systems don't appear to have realized any significant benefits after the conversion. Have we ruled out other less controversial methods which have a proven track record to improve wrestling in Indiana? If not, why spend our time focusing on the controversial ones? The fact that Oregon has out performed Indiana at Fargo the past 5 years with half the population and has seen increased fan and wrestler interest is one piece of evidence to look at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The status quo for the surrounding states is classes.... why is our status quo so different? Because the definition of status quo is the "existing state or condition". Our "existing state or condition" is a single class. The "existing state or condition" for other surrounding states is multiple classes. My point is that supporters of a class system in Indiana have the burden of proof with regard to whether we should change Indiana's status quo. The only proof that has been provided is apparent benefits that other states have realized after going to a classed system that may or may not have been caused by the change to a classed system. On the other hand there are states with class systems don't appear to have realized any significant benefits after the conversion. Have we ruled out other less controversial methods which have a proven track record to improve wrestling in Indiana? If not, why spend our time focusing on the controversial ones? Class wrestling isn't a magic formula for us to be like Ohio or Illinois. Class wrestling will help promote the sport at the small school level and help grow it where it is stagnant at best right now if not dying. If class wrestling does not hurt those other states is it necessarily bad for them then? The results might not be seen at events like Fargo, but they could possibly been seen at the meets in those states or the retention of coaches and wrestlers in that state that come back to coach or ref or be a big fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midget5589 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 i think this thread went to like 80 pages last year or two years ago but 25 in about a day is nuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The fact that Oregon has out performed Indiana at Fargo the past 5 years with half the population and has seen increased fan and wrestler interest is one piece of evidence to look at. I know my data only goes back 5 years, but where has Oregon wrestling stood at before their class movements? I really don't know, but is Oregon just recently making this run or have they always been a solid wrestling state? I'll be back later, got to eat. I expect this thread to be 35 pages when I get back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The status quo for the surrounding states is classes.... why is our status quo so different? Because the definition of status quo is the "existing state or condition". Our "existing state or condition" is a single class. The "existing state or condition" for other surrounding states is multiple classes. My point is that supporters of a class system in Indiana have the burden of proof with regard to whether we should change Indiana's status quo. The only proof that has been provided is apparent benefits that other states have realized after going to a classed system that may or may not have been caused by the change to a classed system. On the other hand there are states with class systems don't appear to have realized any significant benefits after the conversion. Have we ruled out other less controversial methods which have a proven track record to improve wrestling in Indiana? If not, why spend our time focusing on the controversial ones? Class wrestling isn't a magic formula for us to be like Ohio or Illinois. Class wrestling will help promote the sport at the small school level and help grow it where it is stagnant at best right now if not dying. If class wrestling does not hurt those other states is it necessarily bad for them then? The results might not be seen at events like Fargo, but they could possibly been seen at the meets in those states or the retention of coaches and wrestlers in that state that come back to coach or ref or be a big fan. What's the proof that wrestling is dying at small schools? Are participation numbers that much different compared to past years? Is it different from school to school (are some growing their program and some shrinking)? How do the numbers work out for big schools? Are some big school programs growing and others shrinking? What is the difference between the ones that are growing and the ones that are shrinking (both at big and small schools)? How does class wrestling address this? Will it help or hinder big schools? Can a classed team tournament solve address most of the problems without being as controversial (based on the responses here, it seems that a classed team tournament would be less controversial than an classed individual tournament)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 What's the proof that wrestling is dying at small schools? No statistical proof, just what I see at the small school level as a coach. Are participation numbers that much different compared to past years? I don't have the stats, but to me it seems many small schools are struggling mightily fielding full teams more than they did 10 years ago. Is it different from school to school (are some growing their program and some shrinking)? Of course, some schools are doing better and some worse. How do the numbers work out for big schools? Some are struggling, some are doing well, just not at the same rate as small schools. Are some big school programs growing and others shrinking? Yes, but not at the rate of the small schools. What is the difference between the ones that are growing and the ones that are shrinking (both at big and small schools)? The numbers of the schools that are having problems is greater at the small school level. At the small school level when 10 kids are out for the team its an easy target for downsizing or elimination. How does class wrestling address this? Class wrestling will help promote the sport at the small school level and increase the interest there. More interest means more butts in the seats, more kids out for the teams and more exposure to more people. Will it help or hinder big schools? Maybe help a little bit, but in all honestly big schools will see little advantage to a classed system. They would see a 25% increase in state qualifiers compared to 75% at the small school level. Can a classed team tournament solve address most of the problems without being as controversial (based on the responses here, it seems that a classed team tournament would be less controversial than an classed individual tournament)? Somewhat, but at the same time it won't address it to the fullest potential. How would you explain a state championship team without any state qualifiers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midget5589 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I don't have the stats, but to me it seems many small schools are struggling mightily fielding full teams more than they did 10 years ago. wouldnt this explain why theres more state qualifiers from big schools? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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