AJ Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 We have entered the point of no return! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBolt Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Then I say that if wrestling is only a indvidual sport then we should outlaw all use of the "dual meet" It is built on a team format and, in the sport of wrestling its all about hard you as an individual train.. Wrestling is unlike any other individual sport we battle another person we need another person to train with. Track, Swimming, Golf those sports you are competing against a clock or a course.. Yes...and of course one can take ANYTHING to any conclusion they may want. If you go back a read my previous posts you will find the following statement: "To keep the point in perspective, wrestling is by it's very definition an individual sport first...and a team sport second. If the individual steps on the mat and does what he has worked to do, then the team outcome will follow if all are working as hard as they can as individuals. No one there to pick up the slack or lend a hand. It's just the wrestler and that six minute monster he has to tame. " This statement seems rather clear in stating that it IS a team sport that is primarily based on each individuals performance AS an individual. I am NOT saying wrestling doesn't have a team componant to it. The old addage of "You are only as good as your drill partner makes you" is very true. I am betting we have all seen schools that have enrollments far below that of the others near by that have a superior wrestling programs. Thus the concept of "Class Wrestling" does not actually seem be the answer for Wrestling. Of course this is just one man's opinion. It seems the arguments FOR Class Wrestling are based in the myth that the "Little Guys" can't beat the "Big Guys". Unless you have been living under a rock for the last few years I am pretty sure you would have to agree that the dominate force in Indiana Wrestling has been one of the smaller schools (per enrollment). This applies to both the Individual and Team Tourneys BTW. Each year at the Individual Semi-State the gains by smaller schools are noted by the consistent appearance by schools that have not been present before. At least the Evansville Semi-State seems to be that way. Schools like South Spenser, Heritage Hills and Wood Memorial have moved wrestlers into the Semi State and beyond. Other schools have punched there first tickets to the State Tourney after appearing at the Semi-State Toruney a few times before and even crowned their first State Champions. It's about the QUALITY of the programs, NOT the massive numbers in each wrestling room. Of course I would love nothing more than to see every kid in every school wrestling. It would do them a lot of good! But it's just not realistic to even consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBolt Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 agreed we should just have 1 weight. I mean its an individual sport why should we have sperate weight "classes"? Wait I know its because of the size diferential. Actually this is to keep the 285 kids from eating the 103's like candy bars ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspray1 Posted December 8, 2008 Author Share Posted December 8, 2008 Your arguement is all about evansville mater dei... Yes small school by enrollment that just happens to be in a larger cirty and plays by different rules than public small schools. Please tell what other small school has had such tremendous success under the dual meet format? Oh and Y2 if that 103 doesn't happen to beat those 285's its because the coaches don't work hard or they are not good enough and or he didn't come through the feeder system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBolt Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Your arguement is all about evansville mater dei... Yes small school by enrollment that just happens to be in a larger cirty and plays by different rules than public small schools. Please tell what other small school has had such tremendous success under the dual meet format? Oh and Y2 if that 103 doesn't happen to beat those 285's its because the coaches don't work hard or they are not good enough and or he didn't come through the feeder system Actually No...It's not at all. As for Mater Dei and all the rehashed crap about "following the rules" and all that...They have one hell of a program. Love them or Hate them, you have to respect the accomplishments. Personally I could care less if they ever see Center Grove again...but the message "Class Wrestling" sends seems to be "We can't win in this format, so let's change it". In the real world where are these kids going to hear "Hey Bob, I noticed you can't get promoted because that smart guy in accounting keeps testing better than you, so we are going to put in a special "Bob" class so you to can be promoted!"? Seems to be the same message... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 So Jimtown football says "golly gee whiz we can't beat Penn every year, so we are glad we can win this tainted championship?" Why do almost every other state have class wrestling then? Are they just all sissies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 But not all states have huge wrestling numbers. That kinda goes against your point that class wrestling will help the sport grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Yes...and of course one can take ANYTHING to any conclusion they may want. If you go back a read my previous posts you will find the following statement: "To keep the point in perspective, wrestling is by it's very definition an individual sport first...and a team sport second. If the individual steps on the mat and does what he has worked to do, then the team outcome will follow if all are working as hard as they can as individuals. No one there to pick up the slack or lend a hand. It's just the wrestler and that six minute monster he has to tame." This statement seems rather clear in stating that it IS a team sport that is primarily based on each individuals performance AS an individual. I am NOT saying wrestling doesn't have a team componant to it. If it is a team sport then the IHSAA should class it just like it does other team sports. The old addage of "You are only as good as your drill partner makes you" is very true. I am betting we have all seen schools that have enrollments far below that of the others near by that have a superior wrestling programs. Thus the concept of "Class Wrestling" does not actually seem be the answer for Wrestling. By this logic, there should be an equal number of small schools at team state as large schools. This is not the case. It seems the arguments FOR Class Wrestling are based in the myth that the "Little Guys" can't beat the "Big Guys". Unless you have been living under a rock for the last few years I am pretty sure you would have to agree that the dominate force in Indiana Wrestling has been one of the smaller schools (per enrollment). This applies to both the Individual and Team Tourneys BTW. Each year at the Individual Semi-State the gains by smaller schools are noted by the consistent appearance by schools that have not been present before. At least the Evansville Semi-State seems to be that way. Schools like South Spenser, Heritage Hills and Wood Memorial have moved wrestlers into the Semi State and beyond. Other schools have punched there first tickets to the State Tourney after appearing at the Semi-State Toruney a few times before and even crowned their first State Champions. When was Wood Memorial, South Spenser or Heritage Hills' last appearance at team state, or team semi-state, or even team regional. Are you saying that only recently these school have produced their first Semi-state qualifiers? I would like to see some data to back that up. It's about the QUALITY of the programs, NOT the massive numbers in each wrestling room. Of course I would love nothing more than to see every kid in every school wrestling. It would do them a lot of good! But it's just not realistic to even consider. Of course it is, but I'm certain the 'massive numbers' would be considered an advantage in developing a QUALITY program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspray1 Posted December 8, 2008 Author Share Posted December 8, 2008 Blue I understand your arguement but if that is the standard we are going to go by then no sport should be classed. Not this sport and oh yea this sport, oh but not these sports. Class wrestling has thrived in other states and to me, Im all for expanding the sport in anyway we can if that means a more small schools and even big schools get more success then so be it. I could care less if we had three team state champs yearly. Its for the fans anyways. Some five year old who will be in high school in ten years, will really care if we have class or not when his 1a team is winning a state title and he looks up and he can see all 400 hundred people from his town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBolt Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Blue I understand your arguement but if that is the standard we are going to go by then no sport should be classed. Not this sport and oh yea this sport, oh but not these sports. Class wrestling has thrived in other states and to me, Im all for expanding the sport in anyway we can if that means a more small schools and even big schools get more success then so be it. I could care less if we had three team state champs yearly. Its for the fans anyways. Some five year old who will be in high school in ten years, will really care if we have class or not when his 1a team is winning a state title and he looks up and he can see all 400 hundred people from his town. TSpray...I respect your views on this...I honestly do...but I am not saying I sure I understand the point of just because other sports have this format, Wrestling should too. I for one have never been a fan of the Team State concept for exactly the reason you listed. Back in the dark ages when I was in school, Delta was the school to beat for the old Team Title at the Individual Tourney. It WAS possbile for a hand full of kids from a small community to give that community something it will never forget! It made those two days in Market Square Arena even more exciting! AND it gave EVERY wrestler in the state the same chance from their first sectional match to where ever their path took them to win not only an Individual Championship, but to bring home the Team title to his school. You could literally start the year off with a team of 6 kids and win a state championship based on the performance of the team you could field. It embodied the idea of Individual working for Team concept. Don't get me wrong, I am 200% all about whatever gets more kids on the mat as many more times as possible, and I do see the benefit from the team aspect...but awarding a State Title to a team that may have 4 or 5 kids who don't win even one match from Team Regionals on seems odd to me. I know that sounds harsh, but think about it. How is that really any different than the old individual tourney determining the State Champions? You still have a few wrestlers pushing their team forward. I do sincerely respect your opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 An interesting idea i heard recently about class wrestling would be to not have seperate State Titles, but just Championships for the class say we have 2 classes A and AA you have a A and AA tournament to decide the top 8 in each class then they move on to the STATE FINALS which is a combination of the classes. that way you dont have 2 champs a year but small schools can get a kid to state and have a shot at gold. I dunno it probably has a lot of flaws but in theory is not a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhomburg Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 For the record: I am in favor of a classed Team Tournament. I am opposed to a classed Individual Tournament. Agree 100%. If I have to choose to have both the same, then undoubtedly leave it unclassed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatChick76 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 This subject seems to stir people up every year. I am not in favor of class wrestling...Keep Indiana Wrestling Classless!!!...I do not think that class wrestling is going to get more kids interested in wrestling. The major themes dominating most of these threads are 1) building a better wrestling culture in your area, 2) getting more kids into the wrestling room, 3) building a better "Indiana Wrestling" program. That being said...I don't see how class wrestling accomplishes ANY of those 3 things. Dedicated coaches, TONS of volunteers to help wrestlers from the age of 4 up (coaching, taking to tournaments, working pairings, etc.), and a LOVE of wrestling are just some of the things it takes to build a strong wrestling culture. This post..... ?You take a young man in the prime of life, wearing next to nothing, and put him in front of hundreds of fans ? with no teammates around him. And it?s either you or me. To lose is humiliating. It?s a huge blow to your pride and you are half naked. You are so exposed.? ?Some kids can?t deal with public defeat,? Deckard said. ?It?s different than team sports. In team sports there is somebody else to help you share it.? Didn't say.... "Ah, but to win...to win is like NOTHING you've ever felt. You alone on the mat, with hundreds of fans, and you've just been through perhaps the most brutal 6 minutes of your life...the feeling just can't be explained. Your teammates are on the sidelines, win or lose, there for you no matter what. The unique thing about wrestling is that you're all a part of the whole. Yes, it's an individual sport, but each weight class is a unique piece of an intricate puzzle that comes together so beautifully, that it sometimes leaves you speechless. Fourteen men each doing their part to ensure success." Do you see the difference...one passage BUILDS a wrestling culture, and one sends kids running with fearful thoughts of public humiliation (the greatest fear of all high schoolers.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper1 Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Kudos to Eric Mcgill on his stance on ( NO) Class wrestling. He said everything that I believe in and is against it. Read his article if you get a chance, he has some interesting commentary about it and on some other topics as well. Individual Class wrestling will not accomplish anything good in Indiana and anyone who believes in it is looking for the easy way out of doing something hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Kudos to Eric Mcgill on his stance on ( NO) Class wrestling. He said everything that I believe in and is against it. Read his article if you get a chance, he has some interesting commentary about it and on some other topics as well. Individual Class wrestling will not accomplish anything good in Indiana and anyone who believes in it is looking for the easy way out of doing something hard. So all those football coaches that coach at the 1A and 2A levels are looking for "an easy way out." Tell that to Bud Wright, Bill Sharpe or any coach at the small school level. They work just has hard if not harder than any 4A and 5A coach. Coaches that want class wrestling want a level playing field for their athletes. No one gets into coaching for "an easy way out." An easy way out for a coach is to give up coaching and have a lot less stress in their lives. As far as Eric goes, we have had this discussion at the NCAAs the past two years and while we are on opposite sides we both agree that we have different opinions on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlock37 Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Im against it as I am against all class sports in Indiana. I want to see who the very best is regardless of what the sport is whether its football,basketball,vollyball and etc. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper1 Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 As stated in my earlier post, I am against class wrestling for the INDIVIDUAL TOURNAMENT. a quote that I like to tell my wrestlers that was told to me long ago " anything that's easy is usually not worth doing". Turning Indiana into an individual Class Wrestling state is just making things easier. 14 weight classes 14 State Champs Just the way it should be kept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 So would you be a fan of decreasing the number of weight classes to say 7 so things would be "tougher?" Its too easy to win with 14 weight classes, why not have less so its tougher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper1 Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 So would you be a fan of decreasing the number of weight classes to say 7 so things would be "tougher?" Its too easy to win with 14 weight classes, why not have less so its tougher? Thats Silly! : I say lets add an 86 lb and a 350 lb weight class and give everyone a chance, including midgets and Sumo's..... ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 I'm glad you see the point Everyone that wants to say they want to keep it as "tough" as possible should be advocating one weight class and have a TRUE state champion like we have in golf or cross country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper1 Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Y2, You are obviously very passionate about the sport of wrestling, as I am. I say we just agree to disagree and call it even.... because arguing with you is like arguing with my wife, It never gets me anywhere and I usually end up " banned" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmikeydet20 Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 I for one am against class wrestling. Indiana kids are recruited alot more due to how tough a one class system can be. Andrew Szymborski V.M.I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 I for one am against class wrestling. Indiana kids are recruited alot more due to how tough a one class system can be. Andrew Szymborski V.M.I. I'd like to think Indiana kids get recruited because of their level of skill, not necessarily because we've got a one class system. Moving to a class system shouldn't be determined by whether it's easier or harder to win a state title. It's about what's best for wrestling to grow. Y2 has suggested that moving to a class system would make the sport grow in Indiana. I just happen to disagree with it. In my mind, evidence has shown to be inconclusive from states that do have a class system. So I say stay with what we've got. Making the sport grow should be THE ONLY reason to move to a class system... unless your an IHSAA respresentative, then it's about the money. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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