GrecoCoach

Carmel has hosted freestyle dual events the past 2 years. These would be considered invitationals because an individual cannot not sign up without a team that is entered. Last year, it counted as a qualifier for state. Penn had one this year, as well, that is also counting. Some of the southern clubs have had Greco duals for many years. They were never used or needed as qualifiers, but they did exist before this year and were never listed on the ISWA schedule. And trackwrestling isn't required for open events, either. The 3 clubs that did this probably didn't have many wrestlers who haven't already qualified. Those clubs go to a lot of events. If they set this up for the wrestlers to get more experience and ended up also being a qualifier, then it would just be a bonus for a few kids. If they did this to be another qualifier, then they found a creative way around the rules as written. I understand why people would be upset, but progress and change have to start somewhere. It would be great if more of these type of events pop up next year. Now that the ISWA is aware of them, guidelines and requirements can be put in place for what can be considered a qualifier (weigh-ins, officials, # of matches, etc.).

Yes, the IHSAA likes to show that they are "united" and decide how they are all going to vote even before the arguments and discussions take place. At least that is how it appears. Mostly they like to squash any hope that a proposal that gets voted down might have a chance of passing in the future.

I'm confused why he only chose cross county and swimming. They also have track, golf, and wrestling. Why not include those (along with tennis, which they don't have a team)? My only guess is that cross country and swimming state championships have been dominated by big schools (mostly Carmel) for over a decade.

I never blamed you for the downfall. The loss of teams is what created the openings for other teams like the gorillas. I am saying that the prestige of this event has fallen, so other states are not going to bring their best, either. We can keep it as a good regional dual event to get younger wrestlers more experience or we can take a lot of effort to bring it back to what it once was. It would be nice to have a real folkstyle national duals event, whether it's this one or a different one.

If the host state can't even put together all their best on one team, then why would other states waste the effort and travel here with their own best? We are left with an average regional tournament instead of the premier event it used to be. (Even when it was in Delaware with their screen door factories)

What if... The IHSWCA and IndianaMat cooperate and coordinate to field 3 teams all entered as state association teams sponsored by IndianaMat with the same cost for everyone. The top 2 teams are based on the normal criteria. The 3rd team can be chosen by a committee with Joe as chairman. All 3 teams get the same Gorillas gear (different singlet colors for each team). Bigger bulk ordering would lower the cost for everyone. The staff of coaches could float to other mats in order to coach their own wrestlers. It might be necessary to have one head coach or team leader per team that would stay with them for all the duals. But the rest of the hall of famers and good lookers could help work with everyone. Could this be a solution?

They aren't crowning a champion. They are selecting who would best represent their country at the sport's most elite competition. Just because a guy has a good day doesn't mean he will compete better against the rest of the world. A better comparison would be a returning state champ not having to wrestle-off for the spot on his high school team the next year.

Here's my suggestion to the ISWA for a solution... First, don't change anything this year. It is what it is, and the ISWA will be permanently tarnished if they change it. Next year, move up folkstyle state to the week after IHSAA state (basically the last week of February) and push back freestyle/greco state a week (middle of May). That gives about 9 or 10 weeks for freestyle season, which should be plenty to get 2 qualifiers in. Side note, add middle school state as a separate division of folkstyle state on that Sunday to qualify for the middle school duals team. Many middle school teams are already still in season with the way it is now. Less experienced wrestlers could choose between competing in the middle school qualifying division or their normal age division (novice, schoolboy, or cadet). Just a thought because it would be silly to have middle school state and then folkstyle state 2 weeks later. That's what I've got. Bash away at it or be constructive and add to it. The ISWA finalizes next year's state schedule in June. If a final draft of something like this gets proposed to them before then, they will discuss and consider it.

I stated that it would be helpful to have state before regionals, not that it is required. Some regionals are earlier than ours, and there are state tournaments after them. However, it makes more sense to build to higher level tournaments (state then regionals then nationals), thus "helpful". Having a separate schoolboy duals qualifier would cause more work for those volunteers that is unnecessary. It also adds another weekend that people would be forced to attend a tournament, pay for hotels, etc. This whole thread is about people complaining about that.

Here are a couple more... d) Schoolboy Duals are the beginning of June, which doesn't leave much time to organize and fill those teams e) Central Regionals, which we host some years, is middle of May. Helpful to have state before it. When we were at the State Fairgrounds, we were locked into the first weekend of May each year. Now that it is at a high school, it could be moved but not easily. Bumping it to one week later would help as long as Central Regional can be bumped, too.

15 minutes was not set by the ISWA. It has been a USAW rule for quite a few years now. It was researched and determined to be safe by the insurance company that covers the sports insurance for the wrestlers and the liability insurance for the tournaments. It's also the way the Olympics and World Championships operate, and they have a lot more intense matches with less 30 second pins. If the IHSAA (who follows the NFHS rules) ever hosted a tournament with 2100 wrestlers and over 20 mats, they would run into a huge problem with the 45 minutes wait time causing longer tournaments with idle mats at the end of the day. Some sectionals have to take a break after the first pigtail round to make sure they get 45 minutes. To me, that is "ridiculous".

I was an ISWA board member for 12 years. No decision is made lightly. Lots of thought, discussion, and debate goes into everything they do. For your specific circumstances, it might not make sense. For the good of the future of the state, it does. If I was still on the board, I would have voted for this. I hope the ISWA doesn't repeat what they did last year and give last second waivers. Two years in a row will completely ruin their reputation for a long time. They should stand by the decision they made that is best for the whole state in the long run, not just what is good for your wrestler now. Again, all these tournaments you're referring to are folkstyle, not freestyle. Practicing freestyle and competing in freestyle are very different training and preparation for the bigger tournaments. The point is to get more and better competition at the local tournaments to help everyone improve. It's not a change that is going to happen overnight. It's going to take a couple of years to get local tournaments back to the way they were 10+ years ago. I remember easily getting 6-8 matches every Saturday at the local events. We can get back to that, but not with your mindset that your kid is too good for that. When I coached Sliga, he had to attend local tournaments to qualify for state. That's the way it was so he did it. He didn't ask for an exemption because he was on travel teams and won national championships. He simply found a way to meet the requirements as they were set.

Mike Lehman of Carmel was also a Fargo champ (cadet freestyle) who never qualified for state.

That is your right to make that choice. Not everyone attends all those events. Probably very few will do all of them, so most people do not have to make the same choice that you are having to make. Continually calling for a boycott because you have an issue is getting old. Also, those three tournaments are not freestyle events. You're not going to become elite freestyle wrestlers by competing in freestyle once per year at state. Qualification/requirements for freestyle state is not new. It's been around a long time. It was gone a few years, but steps are being taken to improve freestyle across the state. It's not going to be perfect for everyone but it will help the state as a whole.

The point is not to compare our own big school vs small school. (not all small school champs and placewinners are going to be "inferior" to the big school ones) The point is to compare our small school wrestlers with the achievements of small school wrestlers from other states. Indiana's are just as good, if not better, than most from other states. But those small school wrestlers from other states with classed wrestling are getting the attention and offers that ours are not. This will result in more college opportunities for our wrestlers now. When they graduate and (some) come back to Indiana, that will increase our overall level in the future.

Ignore the Statistics - The results change based on personal agendas, starting points, who goes where, etc. (sorry Joe). Over 10 pages of posts and multiple topics each year show that people are going to disagree about which statistics are the most valid and should be used. Ignore the Emotions - History and tradition are great, but times change. If we never make progress and try new things, then we'd still be walking to school uphill both ways. The "good old days" are just that - good but old. What Is Important - College coaches across the country want us to go to classes. It's not to water down our tournament. It's so they can better compare Indiana's best to wrestlers from other states. A kid who maybe qualifies for state once or twice could become a 2 or 3 time placewinner or state champ. That wrestler is going to end up on multiple college coaches' radars. College coaches from schools of all sizes are going to know to watch that wrestler at national events and contact him. When I was in high school, I qualified for state three times and placed twice. I got to wrestle in the IN-IL duals. The guy I wrestled was a 3-time small school state champ in the same weights that I was at. I majored him, even though he had gotten DI offers from schools I was also interested in but never heard from them. The college exposure that classing our state tournament would provide would help our wrestlers immediately and improve our talent level in the future when some of those college wrestlers come back to Indiana to coach. I know we are way behind the best states when it comes to high school and junior high coaches with college wrestling experience. Who Makes the Decision - We can argue all we want here, but the IHSAA ultimately has the final decision. One way to convince them is to have almost all coaches to agree. That obviously isn't going to happen with this, and without 100% membership in the coaches association, the IHSWCA doesn't have as much influence as they do in other sports. There is another way to convince the IHSAA that a change is needed, but I don't know what that is. Basketball changed to classes with similar split opinions. Something changed the minds of the IHSAA. If we can find out what that was, then that's the best avenue to take to make it happen again. It will probably take a group effort with the other "individual" sports to change the stubborn old school beliefs of the IHSAA. We might have to wait until the next regime change, though.

I believe you can add Westfield to that list from the HCC, as well. Their state runner-up a few years ago (Schaeffer) was their first ever finalist. 4 of the 7 schools in a tough conference haven't had a state champ. Brownsburg, Avon, and Fishers are the only 3 that have. (and Fishers has only been around 10 years)

You really don't know what a "darkhorse" is. You also seem confused about what an "upset" is. Nobody can really call Parris, Davison, or Lee "darkhorses" or "upsets" when about half of the predictions have them winning. (You're mention of Sliga over Berry easily falls into the same category.)

Early in the video, the ref stopped the action and talked to both of them before the restart. If the ref was warning both of them about the aggressive "heavy hands", then the DQ is definitely warranted.

Tournament directors being able to change the order of weights is a fairly new NFHS rule. It wasn't an option for Alex and Lance. It is an option now. If I remember correctly, the purpose of the rule was for team score drama. If the top 2 teams had guys facing each other in the finals, it could be moved to the end to add to the suspense of which team would win. Dake/Taylor followed that because Penn State and Cornel were both in contention for the team title.

Here's a story... I was at our school's football game and was sitting with a group of wrestling parents whose kids also played football. Throughout the whole game, one parent kept yelling at our own coach, complaining about play calls, time management, etc. (complaining is the nice way to put it) At one point I leaning over to him and asked "Do you yell like this at me during wrestling meets?" He just said "Of course not, coach." Some fans just can't see the difference between positive cheering and negative booing. You can go to any pro sporting event and hear boos about controversial calls from the refs. That's how some people perceive rooting for their team. The sportsmanship mission that the IHSAA has begun is helping, but there will always be that trickle-down effect from pro sport fans that will keep the boos around. Just please don't boo high school kids.

Does the survey mention anything about handshakes after matches during individual tournaments? Will all teams have to meet at the center of the gym after the tournament is over and shake everyone's hand? Because handshake = sportsmanship

I know one year there was a big presentation of all the examples where a highly ranked wrestler (sometimes undefeated) randomly drew another highly ranked wrestler (sometimes with only 1 loss at Regionals and not from an upset). As compelling as that presentation was, it still didn't change the IHSAA's mind about what they think is right or fair.

I love the ticket round. Not much compares to it. To me it's as exciting as the state finals, mostly because so many kids get to be part of it. I wouldn't want to lose it. Wrestle backs to 5th to qualify still allows the opportunity for "good draws" while giving "bad draws" another chance they deserve.

Our best chance at getting any form of wrestle backs is to use the IHSAA's own idea of wrestling back to 5th, just like they did a few years ago. Top 5 qualify for state. No extra time at semistate than they have done before. 4th & 5th placers wrestle first round of state before the winner faces a semistate champ. Adds about 2 hours to Friday night, but would bring in more money with ticket sales for the IHSAA. It would actually take less time Friday night if they did this and put 8 mats down - I've been told that is possible at Banker's Life. It's not full wrestle backs, but does give a chance for terrible draws to have a chance to still qualify. And those 4th/5th matchups would be fun to watch. I'm guessing a majority of 5ths would beat 4ths. That data could be used to try to get full wrestle backs in a few years.