swain358 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 But wouldn't that be watering down our state tournament by letting undeserving kids that don't work hard or dedicate 300+ days a year to wrestling into the state finals? I think that we should allow less kids into the state finals, because I want to make sure none of those lowsy lazy kids make it with a good draw. Then why were there only 19 1A schools represented at state, while there were 60 3A schools. Are the coaches at 1A schools just not building programs the right way? You are right Y2.. Now that I reassess that idea I think we should just stay with 16 or down to 8 or 4 or 2.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I did not teach at Anderson Highlang High School I only coached there (was in college finishing up my degree). I attended and wrestled at Anderson High school. I think I have a good idea of how things go at a big high school as well. Thank you. I apologize, I read back through your post but must be numb in the brain and couldn't glean that info. I just like to know how I am compiling the opinions of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 You are right Y2.. Now that I reassess that idea I think we should just stay with 16 or down to 8 or 4 or 2.. Exactly, glad we are on the same page. Let's give LESS recognition to kids in the sport instead of more! Only exemplary kids should get recognition and no one else. Heck, I think we should limit our state tournament to ONLY those kids putting in 300+ days a year of work into wrestling and wrestling only! On top of that, less weight classes so that we don't water it down with kids that might get away with being good based on size alone. I'm saying like four weights with only 4 state qualifiers each. That will make our sport better and will increase numbers at all schools. Coaches and kids will work harder to achieve these dreams and goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 60% of the 3A teams had an individual at state this year that accounted for 62.9% of the state qualifiers 35% of 2A teams had an individual at state this year that accounted for 27.7% of the state qualifiers 18% of 1A teams had an individual at state this year that accounted for 9.4% of the state qualifiers In 2 classes 53% of 2A teams had an individual at state this year that accounted for 19.2% of the state qualifiers 23% of 1A teams had an individual at state this year that accounted for 80.8% of the state qualifiers Even though the said team had the most qualifiers, they didn't have the most placers, nor did they finish in the top 10 as a team. Picking one team out of 100 is only showing you can find an outlier and not something consistent. I was not trying to find an outlier... I was just showing that certain schools are dominating state qualifiers... I think the data that 9 schools have 25 % of the qualifiers and 15 schools have over 35% of the qualifiers is an important piece of data to include in the discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Exactly, glad we are on the same page. Let's give LESS recognition to kids in the sport instead of more! Only exemplary kids should get recognition and no one else. Heck, I think we should limit our state tournament to ONLY those kids putting in 300+ days a year of work into wrestling and wrestling only! On top of that, less weight classes so that we don't water it down with kids that might get away with being good based on size alone. I'm saying like four weights with only 4 state qualifiers each. That will make our sport better and will increase numbers at all schools. Coaches and kids will work harder to achieve these dreams and goals. I gave you my opinion. You guys routinely rip people who say "kids that don't qualify for state are not working hard enough" and then you guys normally claim that small school kids work as hard if not even harder. Then karlhungus just said that the same thing (small school kids don't work as hard at wrestling as big school kids). I don't get it. If you want an easier tournament then come out and say it and I will respect your opinion. My opinion is that I like the tournament as it is and gave you guys examples of things that we are trying to do at a small school to enhance our chances of going to state. If other small or big school kids do not want to wrestle in off season as much as possible or needed to get to that state qualifier level then that is their choice. Those that do want to be at that level will. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 But wouldn't that be watering down our state tournament by letting undeserving kids that don't work hard or dedicate 300+ days a year to wrestling into the state finals? I think that we should allow less kids into the state finals, because I want to make sure none of those lowsy lazy kids make it with a good draw. Then why were there only 19 1A schools represented at state, while there were 60 3A schools. Are the coaches at 1A schools just not building programs the right way? Possibly less than 3a, but not a question for me. I have enough of my own problems trying to build a 3a program over the last 8-9 years. I can only imagine how hard it is to get kids to come out, let alone help with coaching. There is probably plenty of people saying how things can be done, but don't help out (I know we get plenty of that). Schools like Triton seem to be doing a good job. Maybe call them and ask! I was just giving my thoughts and I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, which I'm guessing I did with your condescending answer/question. This is the second time you asked a question trying to bait me in a statement that had nothing to do with the direction of my response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I was not trying to find an outlier... I was just showing that certain schools are dominating state qualifiers... I think the data that 9 schools have 25 % of the qualifiers and 15 schools have over 35% of the qualifiers is an important piece of data to include in the discussion... That is finding an outlier. When the average 2A school at state has 1.7 state qualifiers and one has 7 that is an outlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 That is finding an outlier. When the average 2A school at state has 1.7 state qualifiers and one has 7 that is an outlier. No, that is how you are choosing to look at that data. I was showing how a small number of schools are dominating state qualifiers this year. My focus was not on 3A or 2A but rather the small number of schools having such a high overall percent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I gave you my opinion. You guys routinely rip people who say "kids that don't qualify for state are not working hard enough" and then you guys normally claim that small school kids work as hard if not even harder. Then karlhungus just said that the same thing (small school kids don't work as hard at wrestling as big school kids). I don't get it. If you want an easier tournament then come out and say it and I will respect your opinion. My opinion is that I like the tournament as it is and gave you guys examples of things that we are trying to do at a small school to enhance our chances of going to state. If other small or big school kids do not want to wrestle in off season as much as possible or needed to get to that state qualifier level then that is their choice. Those that do want to be at that level will. End of story. There is more to it than an "easier" state tournament as you want to put it. Wouldn't it be an easier state tournament if we added 56 more state qualifiers? Small school kids and coaches work hard, the coaches and kids also coach multiple sports. If you want to encourage your team of 25 kids to only wrestle all year you aren't going to last long at a small school. Either you'll be run out of town by the other coaches or you'll leave when you only have 4 kids on the team. You fail to see this and realize this sport isn't growing, especially at the small school level. The question is do you care about this sport beyond the top tier kids. Giving more recognition to the hard working kids of the state won't hurt anyone and it can in turn GROW the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I gave you my opinion. You guys routinely rip people who say "kids that don't qualify for state are not working hard enough" and then you guys normally claim that small school kids work as hard if not even harder. Then karlhungus just said that the same thing (small school kids don't work as hard at wrestling as big school kids). I don't get it. If you want an easier tournament then come out and say it and I will respect your opinion. My opinion is that I like the tournament as it is and gave you guys examples of things that we are trying to do at a small school to enhance our chances of going to state. If other small or big school kids do not want to wrestle in off season as much as possible or needed to get to that state qualifier level then that is their choice. Those that do want to be at that level will. End of story. If you feel you are being "ripped", I am sorry, that is not my intention. The working hard point might be a legitimate point of confusion. I have always defended the hard working small school kid with the understanding that that kid is much more likely to be working hard at 1 or 2 other sports while still trying to get in as much off season wrestling as possible. Is he working 365 on wrestling...no. Is he working hard....yes. It would obviously be an easier tournament. That should go without saying. But that is not the reason for classing sports. Keeping the sport alive is the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Outlier: In statistics, an outlier is an observation point that is distant from other observations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Possibly less than 3a, but not a question for me. I have enough of my own problems trying to build a 3a program over the last 8-9 years. I can only imagine how hard it is to get kids to come out, let alone help with coaching. There is probably plenty of people saying how things can be done, but don't help out (I know we get plenty of that). Schools like Triton seem to be doing a good job. Maybe call them and ask! I was just giving my thoughts and I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, which I'm guessing I did with your condescending answer/question. This is the second time you asked a question trying to bait me in a statement that had nothing to do with the direction of my response. You said "I truly believe a program can be built at any sized school." That is a direct quote from YOU. If that is true why are only a "few" small schools able to do it? Is it the coaching, the kids, the community, the location? Why does it seem 99% of the top programs are at schools with 1000+ kids? Is it an eerie coincidence or just plain luck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 You said "I truly believe a program can be built at any sized school." That is a direct quote from YOU. If that is true why are only a "few" small schools able to do it? Is it the coaching, the kids, the community, the location? Why does it seem 99% of the top programs are at schools with 1000+ kids? Is it an eerie coincidence or just plain luck? I don't know you tell me.....Penn last state champ was when and how big are they. Or are they an outlier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I don't know you tell me.....Penn last state champ was when and how big are they. Or are they an outlier Are you implying that a program must have a champion to be considered a top program? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I don't know you tell me.....Penn last state champ was when and how big are they. Or are they an outlier A state champ does not make a program....I can attest to this. Y2CJ41 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 There is more to it than an "easier" state tournament as you want to put it. Wouldn't it be an easier state tournament if we added 56 more state qualifiers? Small school kids and coaches work hard, the coaches and kids also coach multiple sports. If you want to encourage your team of 25 kids to only wrestle all year you aren't going to last long at a small school. Either you'll be run out of town by the other coaches or you'll leave when you only have 4 kids on the team. You fail to see this and realize this sport isn't growing, especially at the small school level. The question is do you care about this sport beyond the top tier kids. Giving more recognition to the hard working kids of the state won't hurt anyone and it can in turn GROW the sport. Obviously you did not read my entire post or you only choose to take part of my quote. I said that my kids make the CHOICE to wrestle in the off season because THEY want to be at a State Qualifier level. Nowhere in my post did I say that I MAKE kids wrestle all year. For the record 4 of my 27 kids are one sport athletes (only wrestling) which is fine with me. The others play another sport and some play two other sports which is fine with me as well. I also coach Football as well. So you have no idea what you are talking about when referencing my school and team. Fact is, according to Karlhungus and you, you would like an easier tournament to accommodate kids that play other sports or for whatever reason can't put in enough time to get to the state level. I am ok with your opinion. My opinion is that it's possible for small school kids to compete at the state level they just have to make some of the same sacrifices that those of big schools are making or what other state qualifiers are making. And I can only speak for at my school, the sport of wrestling has grown over the past 3-4 years. Hopefully it continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Obviously you did not read my entire post or you only choose to take part of my quote. I said that my kids make the CHOICE to wrestle in the off season because THEY want to be at a State Qualifier level. Nowhere in my post did I say that I MAKE kids wrestle all year. For the record 4 of my 27 kids are one sport athletes (only wrestling) which is fine with me. The others play another sport and some play two other sports which is fine with me as well. I also coach Football as well. So you have no idea what you are talking about when referencing my school and team. Fact is, according to Karlhungus and you, you would like an easier tournament to accommodate kids that play other sports or for whatever reason can't put in enough time to get to the state level. I am ok with your opinion. My opinion is that it's possible for small school kids to compete at the state level they just have to make some of the same sacrifices that those of big schools are making or what other state qualifiers are making. And I can only speak for at my school, the sport of wrestling has grown over the past 3-4 years. Hopefully it continues. And we are saying that the IHSAA should recognize what most other states recognized 40 years ago and class all sports to keep them alive. If kids at small schools "make the same sacrifices" to become state level wrestlers, they stop participating in other sports. This kills programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Fan Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) You said "I truly believe a program can be built at any sized school." That is a direct quote from YOU. If that is true why are only a "few" small schools able to do it? Is it the coaching, the kids, the community, the location? Why does it seem 99% of the top programs are at schools with 1000+ kids? Is it an eerie coincidence or just plain luck? Because the probability of a school with 1000+ kids of having good wrestlers is much higher compared to a school that has 500 kids... Without doing much math since the school would be twice as big i would assume the numbers would come out to be about 66.5% prob for larger schools and 33.5% for smaller schools. Edited March 4, 2015 by Super_Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Obviously you did not read my entire post or you only choose to take part of my quote. I said that my kids make the CHOICE to wrestle in the off season because THEY want to be at a State Qualifier level. Nowhere in my post did I say that I MAKE kids wrestle all year. For the record 4 of my 27 kids are one sport athletes (only wrestling) which is fine with me. The others play another sport and some play two other sports which is fine with me as well. I also coach Football as well. So you have no idea what you are talking about when referencing my school and team. Fact is, according to Karlhungus and you, you would like an easier tournament to accommodate kids that play other sports or for whatever reason can't put in enough time to get to the state level. I am ok with your opinion. My opinion is that it's possible for small school kids to compete at the state level they just have to make some of the same sacrifices that those of big schools are making or what other state qualifiers are making. And I can only speak for at my school, the sport of wrestling has grown over the past 3-4 years. Hopefully it continues. I read your post fine, you tell your kids if you want to be a state qualifier don't do any other sports. Would you have no problem with your all-conference linebacker and maybe two-way starter to come up to you this week and tell you he's quitting football to be a state qualifier in wrestling? Of if he did the opposite and quit wrestling to focus solely on football. I read where Kaine Luginbill played football and Sawyer Miller was a state qualifier in cross country. These kids at the 1A level that qualify for state are great athletes and work hard with limited resources like coaching, practice partners, scheduling, etc. It should be more than just the very elite of these kids that get recognized for their hard work and sacrifices they make. We aren't doing the sport, nor the kids any favors when we must tell a kid he needs to specialize or he's not going to state. Your kids that do multiple sports work hard, they make sacrifices, just as the ones that wrestle year round. Should this sport only be about year round wrestlers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) Are you implying that a program must have a champion to be considered a top program? Of course not you can tie for 6th place without one. #5 106 Results 1st Place - Colton Cummings of Lowell #6 113 Results 1st Place - Garrett Pepple of East Noble #9 120 Results 1st Place - Brock Hudkins of Danville #17 126 Results 1st Place - Chad Red of New Palestine #3 132 Results 1st Place - Nick Lee of Evansville Mater Dei #14 138 Results 1st Place - Tommy Cash of Lawrence North #4 145 Results 1st Place - Jacob Covaciu of Merrillville #18 152 Results 1st Place - Tommy Forte of Mishawaka #5 160 Results 1st Place - Drew Hughes of Lowell #10 170 Results 1st Place - Dylan Lydy of Ben Davis #1 182 Results 1st Place - Chase Osborn of Penn #2 195 Results 1st Place - Blake Rypel of Indianapolis Cathedral #1 220 Results 1st Place - Kobe Woods of Penn #4 285 Results 1st Place - Shawn Streck of Merrillville 1.Penn 2.Indianapolis Cathedral 3.Evansville Mater Dei 4.Merrillville 5.Lowell 6.East Noble 6.Perry Meridian 8.Portage 9.Danville 10.Ben Davis 11.Yorktown 12.Crown Point 12.Richmond 14.Lawrence North 15.Lebanon 16.Warren Central 17.New Palestine 18.Mishawaka Edited March 4, 2015 by warsawwrestling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Because the probability of a school with 1000+ kids of having good wrestlers is much higher compared to a school that has 500 kids... Without doing much math since the school would be twice as big i would assume the numbers would come out to be about 66.5% prob for larger schools and 33.5% for smaller schools. Then that is why we should class the sport....right? Isn't that the reason we class the other sports? The probability of Carroll with 2000 kids fielding 22 studs in football is greater than the 400 students of Churubusco...right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 And we are saying that the IHSAA should recognize what most other states recognized 40 years ago and class all sports to keep them alive. If kids at small schools "make the same sacrifices" to become state level wrestlers, they stop participating in other sports. This kills programs. What you don't recognize is now we have a promotional product, because we can say we only allow the best of the best (LOL if there were wrestle backs) so almost the best of the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Of course not you can tie for 6th place without one. #5 106 Results 1st Place - Colton Cummings of Lowell #6 113 Results 1st Place - Garrett Pepple of East Noble #9 120 Results 1st Place - Brock Hudkins of Danville #17 126 Results 1st Place - Chad Red of New Palestine #3 132 Results 1st Place - Nick Lee of Evansville Mater Dei #14 138 Results 1st Place - Tommy Cash of Lawrence North #4 145 Results 1st Place - Jacob Covaciu of Merrillville #18 152 Results 1st Place - Tommy Forte of Mishawaka #5 160 Results 1st Place - Drew Hughes of Lowell #10 170 Results 1st Place - Dylan Lydy of Ben Davis #1 182 Results 1st Place - Chase Osborn of Penn #2 195 Results 1st Place - Blake Rypel of Indianapolis Cathedral #1 220 Results 1st Place - Kobe Woods of Penn #4 285 Results 1st Place - Shawn Streck of Merrillville 1. Penn 10. Ben Davis 2. Indianapolis Cathedral 11. Yorktown 3. Evansville Mater Dei 12. Crown Point 4. Merrillville 12. Richmond 5. Lowell 14. Lawrence North 6. East Noble 15. Lebanon 6. Perry Meridian 16. Warren Central 8. Portage 17. New Palestine 9. Danville 18. Mishawaka Is this saying you only judge the good programs by their finish at state? What you don't recognize is now we have a promotional product, because we can say we only allow the best of the best (LOL if there were wrestle backs) so almost the best of the best. Has this helped the quality and quantity of wrestling in the state? Heck, there is a post on here that a dad said his kid wanted to win an Illinois state title over an Indiana one...Illinois is CLASSED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Fan Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Then that is why we should class the sport....right? Isn't that the reason we class the other sports? The probability of Carroll with 2000 kids fielding 22 studs in football is greater than the 400 students of Churubusco...right? You are talking about a team sport though. First off... but besides that point this just shows that INDIVIDUALS from small schools don't have a disadvantage because of work ethic, size of the school or anything of the sort. The TEAM has a disadvantage because they don't have the same probability of having AS MANY wrestlers. This does not limit the INDIVIDUAL from being state placing quality. ENoblewrestling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 You are talking about a team sport though. First off... but besides that point this just shows that INDIVIDUALS from small schools don't have a disadvantage because of work ethic, size of the school or anything of the sort. The TEAM has a disadvantage because they don't have the same probability of having AS MANY wrestlers. This does not limit the INDIVIDUAL from being state placing quality. I've shown the individuals are at a disadvantage.... only 1.7% of the 1A wrestlers that enter sectional qualify for state, while 11.2% of 3A wrestlers do! I'll propose a bet with you like I did Sam. You pick 700 1A wrestlers at sectional, I'll pick 100 3A and we'll see who gets the most state qualifiers. Wanna take me up on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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