Coaches changing schools

[pin2win1]

Not only because most quality large school wrestlers don't play play spring sports but also because they have more athletes to choose from.  More athletes and more time spent in the room will lead to more nationally ranked wrestlers.

 

ok, I can accept that is another reason why they have more athletes in the room.

 

any examples to support this perceived benefit?

 

I do not know who is and isn't nationally known, I do not follow wrestling on a national level. I was just using logic, one would think a college recruiter hearing about a nationally recognized wrestler getting beat by a national nobody would turn heads. Would it not? Now I do believe DNR gave an example of this happeneing, but I doubt you will be hearing from him again ;-).

 

98% of the class wrestling debate has been classless folks trying to discredit the perceived benefits of a class system.  But the moment someone discredits the other side, this strategy somehow becomes taboo?

 

No, i just do not see how class wrestling on an individual level would benefit the individual more. I can see how it would help the team aspect. I have heard arguements from both sides and I just do not see benefiting the individual. What i think is that neither class wrestling nor classless wrestling  is of any advantage for the wrestlers themselves, i mean one system may have a small advantage in one aspect over the other, but they also have small disadvantages that eventually even it out for the most part. therefore, since there is not a big benefit one way or the other, i say keep it the way it is. By doing this we have the best wrestler winning state in each weightclass and wrestling will not fall into an attendance issue like basketball. that being said, MD and Belmont better get their butts back to state, or else we could be in alot of attendance trouble anyway.

 

I guess in short, I am not trying to discredit individual wrestling classes, rather I have yet to see a good arguement that convinces me that on a whole an individual classed stte will be of a great benefit.

[Y2CJ41]

How many nationally known wrestlers do you think there are in Indiana?  Say top 15 in their weight class between all grade levels.

[pin2win1]

Can't say i know how many are nationally known, as i stated earlier, I don't follow wrestling on a national level. That being said, I would guess there is atleast 1 wrestler in each weightclass who wrestles nationally and others know of them. Which would give everyone a chance at state to beat someone who has wrestled on the national scene.

[Silence Dogood]

Quite frankly, I want to see if i have gathered what y2 and karl's positions are on the issue. Karl and y2 want a class for everything based off of the fact and that: in general there are less practice room partners for the smaller schools which means there are less top notch wrestlers in these rooms to make the wrestlers on the team better, That small school athletes in general are unable to put in the time to become outstanding wrestlers like the large schools due to the fact that the athletes are forced to play more sports than the larger schools,and they believe it should be classed due to the fact that the good coaches leave and go to the better schools, thus putting the teams and athletes from the small schools at a disadvantage.

 

One problem I have with this whole argument (and have repeated this point ad nauseum) is that the statistics cited by Y2 with regards to the number of state qualifiers do not demonstrate that an individual from a small school is at a disadvantage. 

 

The number of state qualifiers from big schools is exactly the same as would be predicted by the probable talent distribution.  Apparently any advantages/disadvantages of going to a big school vs. a small school net out in the end at the individual level - at least when it comes to becoming a state qualifier. 

[KarlHungus]

One problem I have with this whole argument (and have repeated this point ad nauseum) is that the statistics cited by Y2 with regards to the number of state qualifiers do not demonstrate that an individual from a small school is at a disadvantage. 

 

The number of state qualifiers from big schools is exactly the same as would be predicted by the probable talent distribution.  Apparently any advantages/disadvantages of going to a big school vs. a small school net out in the end at the individual level - at least when it comes to becoming a state qualifier. 

 

the argument often cited is that small schools just need to work harder, devote more time, etc.  and then the field will somehow become more level.  I agree with you, 75% of the kids are at big schools so 75% of the hard workers and talented are likely in the big schools.  This in itself is a reason for class wrestling IMO.

[Silence Dogood]

the argument often cited is that small schools just need to work harder, devote more time, etc.  and then the field will somehow become more level.  I agree with you, 75% of the kids are at big schools so 75% of the hard workers and talented are likely in the big schools.  This in itself is a reason for class wrestling IMO.

 

My point is that based on the statistics cited by Y2, the field already is level between an individual from a big school and an individual from a small school.  If going to a big school gave an advantage to an individual, there should be a greater percentage of state qualifiers from big schools than would be predicted by the probable talent distribution.  Why is this not the case?

[pin2win1]

the argument often cited is that small schools just need to work harder, devote more time, etc.  and then the field will somehow become more level.  I agree with you, 75% of the kids are at big schools so 75% of the hard workers and talented are likely in the big schools.  This in itself is a reason for class wrestling IMO.

 

So are u saying that you support a system in which those who don't work as hard are recognized for their acheivment? ;-)

 

In all honesty, this will make some kids from the larger schools, or even the smaller schools look as if they are not as good as some of the other class's wrestlers. I mean think about it, this could go either way but would more than likely go something like this.

 

larger school kid may actually be better than 75% of the state qualifiers from the smaller schools, but he fails to make state in the large school class. So what we end up doing is we recognize a bunch of kids who are not as good as a kid who does not even make state. Why do kids that are not as good as him get recognized? To me that seems unfair.

 

Now, I know this already happens on a much smaller scale with one area in the state having a 5 strong wrestlers in a weight class at semi state, while another may have only 2 or 3 that are as good as one semi-state's 5th best wrestler. But atleast this way the 4 top wrestlers in each at each semi state are definately recognized instead of the top 4, the 6th, 9th, and 12th. In short, I believe with the format we have, only the best get recognized, and I feel that under a class system this may not be the case.

[pin2win1]

Also kids from small schools have a better shot at getting 3 or 4 years of varsity experience, kids from large schools may only get 1 or 2 do to their larger numbers. I would think this is one of the advantages smaller schools have over the larger schools.

[KarlHungus]

My point is that based on the statistics cited by Y2, the field already is level between an individual from a big school and an individual from a small school.  If going to a big school gave an advantage to an individual, there should be a greater percentage of state qualifiers from big schools than would be predicted by the probable talent distribution.  Why is this not the case?

 

I believe his point is that talent should not be factored in because the prevailing argument of single class supporters is that hard work, etc. can over come the talent disparity.  If that were truly the case then small schools would have 50% of the state qualifiers because they have 50% of the entrants.

 

I agree with you that big school have the inherent advantage of having more talent.  I feel this is the reason other sports are classed and should be the reason why wrestling should be classed.

[pin2win1]

I don;t think it would even it up to 50/50 between large schools and small schools. But don't small schools have a majority of the forfeits? I mean if that is the case, then the ratio of entrants between small and large schools is no longer 50/50 but possibly 55/45 or even 60/40. I mean that still wouldn't make it 75/25 like the ratio is for large schools and small schools at state, but it does narrow the gap some.

 

 

[KarlHungus]

So are u saying that you support a system in which those who don't work as hard are recognized for their acheivment? ;-)

 

In all honesty, this will make some kids from the larger schools, or even the smaller schools look as if they are not as good as some of the other class's wrestlers. I mean think about it, this could go either way but would more than likely go something like this.

 

larger school kid may actually be better than 75% of the state qualifiers from the smaller schools, but he fails to make state in the large school class. So what we end up doing is we recognize a bunch of kids who are not as good as a kid who does not even make state. Why do kids that are not as good as him get recognized? To me that seems unfair.

 

Now, I know this already happens on a much smaller scale with one area in the state having a 5 strong wrestlers in a weight class at semi state, while another may have only 2 or 3 that are as good as one semi-state's 5th best wrestler. But atleast this way the 4 top wrestlers in each at each semi state are definately recognized instead of the top 4, the 6th, 9th, and 12th. In short, I believe with the format we have, only the best get recognized, and I feel that under a class system this may not be the case.

 

Jimtown was not as good as Penn this year in football yet Jimtown brought home sectional and regional hardware.  Did Penn see this as unfair?  I don't know but I doubt it.

 

A class system would increase the number of kids going to state from big schools because the small schools would not be taking up 25% of the slots.

 

Would there be state qualifiers from small schools that were beaten by big school kids that did not qualify?  I'm sure there would be.  But that is the case now.  A kid I coached this year  who was a state qualifier had 5 losses.  3 of the losses were to non-qualifiers. 

[littlevito]

Wow!! Last time I looked at this thread it was at like 3 pages, and since has taken off in quite a spin.  Since I saw my name and schools I coach/coached at, I guess I will go ahead and throw out my thoughts on this topic.

 

Two years ago I left Homestead as an assistant to take over the head coaching position at Bluffton.  It took me probably 2-3 months to finally make the decision to do so.  I absolutely loved what I had at Homestead with Coach Pursley, and the kind of team and individuals we had started to make together.  But I felt like it was my time to try and pursue my own program.  When I took over the Bluffton job, it was in a downwards spiral like I had never seen before.  Especially since everything I was told was not true: Numbers of the high school team, numbers of the middle school team, and numbers of the club.  After taking the job I realized I was a little over my head with what was really in place there, but I knew that there were some outstanding individuals that I was going to be able to work with.

 

In my first season we finished with a team record of 9-12 which consisted of only 10 guys, and of those 12 losses, I believe 6-7 were by more than the 24 points we were already giving up.  And of the 10 guys I had 2 that got pinned in every single match.  So every meet we had a huge hole to dig out of.  I also had the same thing this year as I only had 11 guys, and lost 2 state wrestlers to graduation.

 

Now with that being said, things still aren't looking good as we had to cancel our middle school season due to only having 4-5 guys on the team.

 

The question some people are wondering is would I leave Bluffton to go back to Homestead if that job was available.  The answer is YES I would take that job. But I won't right now cause I don't want to leave a program in despair for someone else to deal with I had to deal with.

 

Reasons why I would choose to go back to Homestead:

 

1. Numbers: Homestead has way more to choose from, and has more kids that could care less about being in basketball or swimming. At Bluffton I have to deal with a basketball program that is looked upon as if they were Gods...yet they can't get out of sectional. But we were able to have 2 state streeters last year and 4 SSQ this year.

 

2. Community: It is hard to get anything going at Bluffton as I have no help at all from the town. I don't even live in Bluffton and either does my assistant.  I come from the good old town of Decatur home of the great Bellmont program.  You can always count on wrestlers coming back and trying to help out or at least supporting the program. At Bluffton, once a wrestler is gone, he is gone and never comes back. Right now I know of 5 coaches from other schools that are Bluffton Alumni.  It is hard to establish anything or get anything going when all I have is ME trying to run the high school, middle school, and club with no help.

 

With all this being said, I am happy where I am at with Bluffton and I don't see myself leaving Bluffton anytime soon. I feel that I out of the 7 guys returning I have enough talent to get a few state streeters which is the focus right now until I am able to start getting younger kids back and involved. 

 

I think I may have got lost in typing this, and it might be hard to follow and understand so sorry about that.  But there is a lot more benefits for success within a bigger school, especially when you get the right person involved.  So yes I would go back to Homestead, but not right now.

 

[KarlHungus]

Also kids from small schools have a better shot at getting 3 or 4 years of varsity experience, kids from large schools may only get 1 or 2 do to their larger numbers. I would think this is one of the advantages smaller schools have over the larger schools.

 

What is better training, being in Mishawaka's room training with state placers and going to JV tournaments all year long or being forced to wrestle varsity before they are physically ready because they are the only kid at that weight class at a place like LaVille.

 

Kids like Al White, Dick Morin, Christain Lentz, and Travis Thomas make me think being a big school's room is more beneficial, even if you only get a year or two of varsity competition.  I am not saying some kids don't develop by being in a varsity line-up but I also don't see it as detrimental to big school kids.

 

You also can factor in the fact that many small school kids quit the sport because they are thrown to the wolves before they are ready due to the lack of numbers.

[pin2win1]

Jimtown was not as good as Penn this year in football yet Jimtown brought home sectional and regional hardware.  Did Penn see this as unfair?  I don't know but I doubt it.

I am talking about individuals, not teams. I believe individuals can overcome their small school "disadvantages." You are using a team as an example, I have alread stated that team state SHOULD be classed. Therefore your example is not going to fly with me or many others who want a classed team state but not to an individual state, because you are using a team as your example, even though we already agree with you that small school TEAMS as a whole are at a disadvantage and but the INDIVIDUALS are not.

 

Would there be state qualifiers from small schools that were beaten by big school kids that did not qualify?  I'm sure there would be.  But that is the case now.  A kid I coached this year  who was a state qualifier had 5 losses.  3 of the losses were to non-qualifiers.

I already said it happens now but on a much smaller scale. Were the 2 losses against teams in your semi-state? If not, then I already stated that atleast we get the top 4 from each semi-state. If the losses were to people in the same semi-state, could it be posible your wrestler got better than them over the course of the year?

[pin2win1]

What is better training, being in Mishawaka's room training with state placers and going to JV tournaments all year long or being forced to wrestle varsity before they are physically ready because they are the only kid at that weight class at a place like LaVille.

 

Kids like Al White, Dick Morin, Christain Lentz, and Travis Thomas make me think being a big school's room is more beneficial, even if you only get a year or two of varsity competition.  I am not saying some kids don't develop by being in a varsity line-up but I also don't see it as detrimental to big school kids.

 

You also can factor in the fact that many small school kids quit the sport because they are thrown to the wolves before they are ready due to the lack of numbers.

 

Well first off, many wrestlers have the chance to travel to Mishawaka during the year to wrestle the Al Whites, Dick Morins, Christian Lentzes and Travis Thomases at Mishawaka during the off season, so that negates some of the "advatages" Mishawaka has. Secondly you are assuming that all large schools have these types of guys. YT which is a rather small schools has these types of guys as well, in fact they had a couple guys better than some of those you listed from Mishawaka. I'd be curious for someone to chime in and see how many 3 year guys they had on their team. It's possible that YT had the best of both worlds.

 

fact is, small schools can have a rather strong wrestling room, it is not only the larger schools that have strong wrestling rooms.

 

But let's be realistic here, you did pick a team who was arguably had the 2nd best decade between 2001-2010, behind Mater Dei obviously. You could have very easily choosen anothe large school like a SB wrestling room, or Penn, or and elkhart team. All there are many avg to good teams in that list, but none that would have a room that knocked your socks off like Mishawaka's room. I guess what i am saying, is that whether you are a big or small school, you are not going to find much better than Mishawaka's room for those 3 1/2 months over the last 10 years. So using Mishawaka as your example is a little unfair ;-)

[Silence Dogood]

I believe his point is that talent should not be factored in because the prevailing argument of single class supporters is that hard work, etc. can over come the talent disparity.  If that were truly the case then small schools would have 50% of the state qualifiers because they have 50% of the entrants.

 

I agree with you that big school have the inherent advantage of having more talent.  I feel this is the reason other sports are classed and should be the reason why wrestling should be classed.

 

I don't think you understand my point.  I am not arguing that smalls school individuals aren't working hard or that they need to work harder.  I am saying that 75% of the state qualifiers coming from a group that has 75% of the student population and therefore likely has 75% of the natural talent to begin with doesn't demonstrate that the system provides an unfair advantage to individuals from big schools.  If going to a big school provided an individual from a big school with a net advantage over an individual from a small school, more than 75% of the state qualifiers would be from big schools.  

 

Let me use a hypothetical to demonstrate my point.

 

Let?s say right before sectional, we took every student in Indiana and randomly assigned them to a new school such that after the redistribution each school still had the same number of students (and the same number of male and female students).  Big schools still have 75% of the individuals and small schools still have 25%.  We then have the state tournament series.

 

Wouldn?t you predict that close to 75% of the state qualifiers would come from the new big school group since they would likely have 75% of the individuals that had the talent to become a state qualifier at the start of the tournament series?  

 

That's all I am arguing.  Big schools start with 75% of the talent because they have 75% of the students.  If going to a big school provided an individual with an advantage over an individual from a small school, more than 75% of the state qualifiers would come from big schools.

[ace2212]

Pin2win1, you really need to talk to a math guy.  The larger the sampling, the closer to the actual value you will get.  Look at a coin for example.  Flip it 10 times, you may get 8T,2H's. Does this mean the coin was weighted or unfair?  Flip it 40 more times, now you have 29T,21H.  The more times you flip the coin, the closer you will get to 50%.  Same applies for polls.  The more people polled, the closer you would get the the theoretical value, in your example 35%.

 

Buscowrestling, you are a fairly new coach in the area, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt here, but if you put Whitko's coach at Carroll or Homestead for 3-5 years, there is little chance Garrett and Whitko would compete with them.  If you could clone him, put him at Carroll and Whitko at the exact same time, Carroll would DOMINATE!!!  If you don't believe that, you have much to learn.  You are in a good situation at Busco because of the other coaches you work with outside of the wrestling program.  They are phenomenal coaches and avid wrestling supporters, maybe that is part of why you like it there.  When you put in the time that Y2 does in the off season with your kids, then he will probably listen to your points.

 

I have coached at both a large school and a small school, both of which had moderate success, both as a team and on an individual basis.  I can tell you this, our best team at the small school (which would have competed with most school in the state that year) would have been smashed by our average teams when I was at the big school.  The year after the best season in school history at the small school, we lost 20-25% of our wrestlers (not counting ones that graduated).  That is the life of a small school, that doesn't typically happen at large schools.  If it does, there is a ton more depth, so you reload, not rebuild.

 

Y2 and Karl have never made excuses for their kids losing and they work harder than anyone I know for kids,not their own personal gain or ego.  I believe that is why they are passionate and a little irritated when someone says "Just work harder" or the best one "We wouldn't know the REAL champion or have the SPOTLIGHT".  I'm not sure those two reasons for classless wrestling have anything to do with doing what is best for kids.

 

I will say though that I don't agree with them that a lot/many/most (whatever word you want to insert) go from small school to larger schools for pure wrestling reasons - hope I'm not interpreting incorrectly.  However, I will say that larger schools typically pay more, which would account for some of the movement.

 

Just acknowledge large schools have a competitive advantage over small schools.  Even if you don't agree with class wrestling, at least acknowledging this FACT (not opinion) would give you credibility to this debate.  To deny this fact is absurd.

 

And lastly, I'd be happy to meet Karl and Y2 face to face, I can take you both.

 

"You ain't tough, you have/want class wrestling"

[Silence Dogood]

Just acknowledge large schools have a competitive advantage over small schools.   Even if you don't agree with class wrestling, at least acknowledging this FACT (not opinion) would give you credibility to this debate.  To deny this fact is absurd.

 

 

I admit that this is true for the team portion and argue that it's not true (based on the statistics Y2 has cited) for the individual portion.  Where does that fall on the sanity-absurdity scale?

 

 

*Editted to show that it was not my post

Y2Cj41

[pin2win1]

acee2212, karl and i figured out the whole issue of where we differ on the polling idea...... when i say a random sample i mean a truly draw names out of a hat, with no scientific method sample. Karl however views random sampling in a more scientific method than I do to get a mini snap shot of america. I am fairly certain under karl's idea he would come very close to 35 percent, mine however would not, it would be based on odds which were based off of chance and odds based off of chance tend to be inconsistent. If odds based off of chance were were consistent, the gambling industry in vegas would be in trouble, especially at the roulette wheel.

 

Just acknowledge large schools have a competitive advantage over small schools.  Even if you don't agree with class wrestling, at least acknowledging this FACT (not opinion) would give you credibility to this debate.  To deny this fact is absurd.

 

I acknowledge that large schools as a team do have an advantage, they have a larger talent pool to choose from and can fill their weight classes alot easier than small schools.... I do not believe this carries over to the individual though.

[Y2CJ41]

Silence Dogood,

Take out Mater Dei from the small school numbers of state qualifiers and it is a very different ratio.  Mater Dei has accounted for 3.2% of the state qualifiers the past 11 years.

[ace2212]

While I do not have the time to debate like Karl and Y2, I will stoop to there level one time, but I'm glad you at least admit the one point.  Are you saying that you don't believe that having a better team, helps individuals get better.  For example, I sucked my first two years in high school, but as a result of being JV and having success in JV matches while getting pounded on in the practice room, I got better.  I had a good Junior year because I still had practices partners on a daily basis.  As a senior there really weren't wrestlers in the practice room that challenged me on a daily basis, and my performance in matches suffered.  I worked as hard as I could, but I didn't have people in the room that could really challenge me.  That is one example where the bigger schools make a difference vs. a smaller school.

 

"You ain't tough, you have class wrestling"

[Silence Dogood]

A little digression here, but I noticed that Y2 and Ryan Pribble both stated that they were not in favor of classing the individual tournament when they were competing, but do now that they are coaches. 

 

Here is Y2's comment on the matter:

 

No I didn't care about it, I wrestled in the system that was presented to me and had no control over things like class, wrestlebacks, who my coaches were, etc..  I have stated in the past I was a single class supporter through and through until coaching at Northrop(2000 students) and Garrett(550 students).  I have also stated as a competitor I love the single class format, but as someone that cares about the sport as a whole I see a class format as something that would be good for the sport.

 

Here is Ryan Pribble's comment (via a post from Y2):

 

You know I have and his response is he would like to have won it in a single class system, but now that he is coaching in Iowa he loves the class system and what it has done for wrestling in that state.

 

Here is part of his response

"Coming from a small school, reaching state was an almost unreachable goal and state champ was not even spoken(A lot of my friends talked crap about me b/c I said I would win). Well here almost every team has a state qualifier if not many. Our Kids see state qualifiers and placers all the time. So it puts them in reach therefore our kids work harder become better. At the same time the SQ are not as good as Indiana as in 2a we had to win four matches to make it and 3a two or three matches(only one tournament before state) Another thing is there is a lot of animosity between the classes as 3a feels they are better and 2a the same and 1a is just ***potty mouth*** on but actually are pretty good. So that was just a bunch of random thoughts but as an athlete I loved the one class and would want nothing different. But I feel it takes a lot of things to happen right for someone from a small school to win, and the way i thought about it was I had to be ten points better then my opponent to win by one and i had to put in three times the hours for every one they put in. There is just so many small advanages big schools have(One big one is nervousness in the go to state match, also depending on the kid,but in general i see many better kids from small schools lose just because its just a different thought process for them). As a coach and a wrestling fan interested in improving overall wrestling in the state probably classed wrestling is the way to go."

 

My question is whether this is generally the case? Did people who now favor classing the individual tournament like the single-class tournament when they were competing?  What about those competing today?  Do the individuals actually competing generally favor a single class for the individual tournament? 

 

 

[pin2win1]

While I do not have the time to debate like Karl and Y2, I will stoop to there level one time, but I'm glad you at least admit the one point.  Are you saying that you don't believe that having a better team, helps individuals get better.  For example, I sucked my first two years in high school, but as a result of being JV and having success in JV matches while getting pounded on in the practice room, I got better.  I had a good Junior year because I still had practices partners on a daily basis.  As a senior there really weren't wrestlers in the practice room that challenged me on a daily basis, and my performance in matches suffered.  I worked as hard as I could, but I didn't have people in the room that could really challenge me.  That is one example where the bigger schools make a difference vs. a smaller school.

 

If this were 10 years ago or even longer I would agree, but individuals now have more opportunities to wrestle others outside of their team than they used to. I mean look at all the RTC's for these wrestlers to go to now? Look at all the tournaments and clubs that are available. If an individual wrestler is going to be great in this day and age, it is going to be largely based on the work outside of the actual wrestling season, and not on who he gets to wrestle in the wrestling room.

[Silence Dogood]

Silence Dogood,

Take out Mater Dei from the small school numbers of state qualifiers and it is a very different ratio.  Mater Dei has accounted for 3.2% of the state qualifiers the past 11 years.

 

Where does that put the final numbers then? Somewhere close to 75/25?  Do you agree that expecting it to be 50/50 doesn't make sense based on the probable talent distribution?

[Y2CJ41]

A little digression here, but I noticed that Y2 and Ryan Pribble both stated that they were not in favor of classing the individual tournament when they were competing, but do now that they are coaches.  

 

Here is Y2's comment on the matter:

 

Here is Ryan Pribble's comment (via a post from Y2):

 

My question is whether this is generally the case? Did people who now favor classing the individual tournament like the single-class tournament when they were competing?  What about those competing today?  Do the individuals actually competing generally favor a single class for the individual tournament?  

 

 

I was not a fan of class wrestling until I coached at Garrett and saw the huge differences in Northrop and Garrett.  Before that I was very anti-class wrestling.  

 

The difference between when I was 17 years old and when I am 30 is maturity and seeing a bigger picture.  That bigger picture being this sport as a whole.  Pribble and I both have the exact same feelings in that we want what is best for the sport and both believe classing as something that would help the sport in our state.  

 

Most kids that are competitors would want nothing more than a single class system, but in all honesty they really wouldn't care as much as you would think.  Kids that play sports don't really care about classes they play or wrestle whoever is in front of them.