Class Wrestling?????

[NickS]

Considering you can have a quality wrestler from a non quality program but you can't have a quality program without quality wrestlers I reason that quality wrestlers make quality programs.

 

So according to your reasoning, Mater Dei's program was built by quality wrestlers. So I have to ask, how did these kids become quality wrestlers? If you take out Mater Dei's current coaching staff/program structure and replaced them with the poorest coaching staff/program structure in Indiana (not going to mention names). Where do you think Mater Dei would be in 10-15 years: better, worse, or the same as now?

 

The idea isn't that adding classes itself will make the wrestlers better but that having success will encourage more wrestlers to wrestle and more wrestlers to spend extra time wrestling. If those three extra delphi state qualifiers in the class system decide that they want to spend extra time because they believe they can be state champions having made it state instead of regional qualifiers and put forth more effort then Indiana wrestling has improved by 3 wrestlers. Granted this doesn't affect the quality of wrestling in Indiana as a whole, but as you pointed out it's more likely that these wrestlers that invest a ton of effort in the wrestling will likely return to the sport and contribute.

 

If those 3 Delphi wrestlers are very passionate for the sport, they will stay involved with the sport regardless if they were state qualifiers or not. So I don't buy the notion that if they were state qualifiers they'd be more inclined to work harder and stay longer. Also being a state champion is relative to the person who's accomplishing their particular goal.

 

My freshman year, I won sectionals and had to beat a guy that I lost to twice and hadn't beaten. After I won, I felt like a "state champion" and was on top the world. Did I actually win state? Heck no, but I didn't feel any less deserving of my goal, and I worked my butt off to reach that goal. Being an actual state champion isn't the only goal for wrestlers to strive and put the extra mat time in for. Your goal can be sectional, regional, semi-state champion and feel just as good about it as someone who does win state.

 

I would define being competitive as having some success in the state tournament since generally that's what is celebrated the most with banners in the rafters and trophies in the trophy cases.

 

We should have 310 different classes then. Indiana would have the most successful high school wrestling in the country. My definition of being competitive is your ability to take on the toughest competition in the state. 75% of state qualifiers come from big schools in Indiana. I'm willing to bet that if Ohio was single-classed, that they would see similar numbers for their big schools. A class system won't change which schools will be superior and the schools that are inferior.

 

Now I agree that it takes more than success to breed success, but for those programs that already have a coaching staff and structure that promotes wrestlers growth if success can up their numbers, I don't see the downside of this. If Delphi were to win state this year and their coaches decided to try encourage their team to attend a particular camp, do you believe the state championship would have an effect on how many parents agree to send their kids? It would be real interesting to see if there is an increase in numbers for all ages of the program after a team wins a state championship.

 

I agree that there would be growth for Delphi if they won state, AND IF the coaches encouraged their wrestlers to do off-season activities and what not. Heck, they don't even need to win state I bet. Just getting this far will probably grow their program IF the coaches put the time in on the off-season. What good would a state title be for Delphi if the coaches packed it in, didn't have open mats, didn't encourage their wrestlers to attend summer camps, and eliminated youth programs after this season?

 

This is what I'm trying to get at. The program structure determines the turnout and interest, not state titles. State titles don't precede the dedication, dedication precedes the state titles. How many years did it take Mater Dei to reach the level of being the premier wrestling program for Indiana? How long did it take Mishawaka to reach the level of state champion? If I had to guess, no less than a decade.

 

-Why did you join youth wrestling? Did your parents come from wrestling families?

-Did you have siblings or friends that wrestled?

-What caused you to pick wrestling?

-What caused your parents to agree to let you do it?

 

These are things we need to be examining to promote growth in our sport. The more kids we can get interested in wrestling the better the chances of finding a kid who will love the sport and contribute back to it.

 

I'm not sure if you were asking me these questions or just making a statement, but I will answer anyway.

 

-I joined youth wrestling for the same reason I joined football, soccer, and baseball. For the activity and fun of it.

-I'm the oldest of my siblings, so they've fallen in my footsteps and no as far as friends.

-I picked wrestling because I enjoyed the the work I put into it and the one-on-one aspect of it. You control your own destiny, no partner to help you or place blame on.

-They allowed me to do it, because they enjoyed watching me wrestle and knew how much I loved doing it.

 

None of the answers that I gave you involved the accomplishments that I attained during my or anyone else's career. I'd be hard-pressed to think that anyone that's still involved with wrestling when they're adults would say it's because they were state champions/qualifiers.

 

To those of you who argue about having one champion over having two champions in a weight class I say it's not about you, it's about the kids. I highly doubt that if you ask a state champion from a state with class wrestling if it diminishes his achievement he'll answer no. He won't care that he was the state champion in such and such class, only that he stood atop the podium under the lights.

 

I've never criticized the class system and wouldn't say it diminishes anyone's achievement. A kid that does win a class title should feel great about his accomplishment. But I bet if you asked him if he'd rather have a shot at being the ONLY state champion, he'd take it in a heartbeat.

 

I've already read the comments about friendship tourneys and understand that this is the nature of competition...not everyone can win. But to ignore the inequalities of the system we have in place without taking into the consideration the affect it has on the people in the system that it affects (small school wrestlers) because we want one champion is arrogant. Y2's data suggests that wrestles of bigger schools are 3x more likely to make it to state without ever wrestling. This shows an inherent flaw with the current system that for whatever the reason. We need to fix this.

 

I don't know what flaw you're talking about here. Big schools dominate other states as well. The difference is, our system reveals it, while class systems tend to conceal it.

[mayerna]

I really can't believe true wrestlers would be in favor of class wrestling. Isn't it 2 men enter, 1 man leaves? One man wins. I am from a small school and loved wrestling against the bigger schools. No way should Indiana ever put wrestling into classes. If they did that for Individual, there would be no meaning in state champ. And for Team State? Do we really want to hurt how great this tourney has become? You wouldn't have the PM-MD or MD-Mishawaka duals from a couple years ago. Instead you would have a finals that appear more like a team regional. I like the team regional but nowhere near as much as I like Team State

[Y2CJ41]

So I guess you don't call kids that go to DII, DIII or NAIA colleges and wrestle "true" wrestlers then huh?

[mayerna]

I would call them "true" wrestlers. College wrestling is so much different than High school, that it I don't think it should be compared to Indiana State wrestling. I wrestled D2 and I can tell you the difference between that and D1, D3, juco, and the rest. College divisions have to do with the amount of money and scholarships that can be given to the wrestler. Also, we are talking about a national level. I can bet you no D2 wrestler would want you to put the D2 wrestling into classes based on how many people attend their university. Any college with less than 5000 can be 1a of D2 and any over can be 2aa of D2. I don't think may would go for that

[Y2CJ41]

Did you or your teammates throw their accomplishments in the trash because they weren't the "true" champions or All-Americans?  I know none of my teammates did that. 

 

In college instead of enrollment differences, its a difference in how much money a school is wiling to put into a program.  It still works on the same level, as there are no "true" college wrestling national champions and it is "classed."

[mayerna]

Of course we didn't throw away our awards. But we also knew we were awarded those AA's based on the D2 model. Would most of us rather have went D1 one a full ride? You bet ya.

I also know I shouldn't be getting into a typing conversation/ arguement about "true" wrestlers and with Y2( I've followed the board long enough). My comment was not very well thought out. I personally respect everyone who puts on wrestling shoes and tries to go out and win a match. I guess what I meant by that is the competitive spirit of wrestling makes you/me want to beat everyone I can in my weight in that year. My opinion is that we shouldn't do class wrestling. And, yes, people who disagree with me and think we should have class wrestling are also "true" wrestlers. I shouldn't have posted the comment that way.

[Y2CJ41]

Good choice not to get into a typing argument with me

 

In all seriousness, its not the competition that we are afraid of, all of the coaches and wrestlers want to face and beat the best competition.  The #1 reason I am for class wrestling is to help the sport grow.  I personally believe its dying at the small school level here in Indiana.  Why not grow the sport at the small school level?  The more kids that have success or even a little taste of it(semi-state qualifiers or regional qualifiers) the more that will come out for the sport AND more importantly stay with the sport for a longer period of time as a coach, parent, or fan. 

 

[1oldwrestler]

I wrestled  high school in IL when it was still a 2 class system and was in the A, or smaller school, division.   I went to state my junior year and placed 3rd at 145 my senior year and always wondered how I would have fared in AA.  I believe I would have made the tourney in AA but placing would have been difficult.  Shortly after I graduated the IHSA moved a Catholic powerhouse (Providence New Lenox) to AA.  Their 105 lbr had won a title at at A as a junior and then, for his senior season, had to compete in AA where he placed 5th.   However, a few short years later, after they faced AA competition week in and week out, Providence once again became dominant in AA and they are still a force today.  If Indiana goes to a class system and schools like Bellmont and MD are moved to the small school class, they will run rough shod over the competition.  Will their programs begin to suffer?  Not sure.  Their conferences will still be in tact where they'll face lager schools and they'll be able to still go to tourney's like the Al Smith in the regular season but eventually, maybe 25 years down the line, if they were thrown back into the big school class, they'd probably take their lumps because their post season experience won't be as rigorous as it is now.  Being a transplant I think the single calss system is unique and pretty cool but I can also tell you that class wrestling won't drive spectators away from the sport.  The Assembly Hall in Champaign is jammed for every state finals and I have memories that will last my lifetime.  Exposure for more wrestlers is also, probably a benefit by going to a class system.  I will say, however, that, to this day, I do wonder how I would have done in AA.  Kind of rambling, I know, but just a few thoughts and experiences to share

[mayerna]

I do agree with you that the sport is dying in small town Indiana, but it is also dying, imo, throughout the U.S. How many D1 programs are there now? 50-60? D2? Last I heard there was 45. I guess that is off the topic. Anyways, I am all for growing the sport, but I think that you would take away to much by going to a class system. I wrestled for MD and wouldn't want them to be in the small school division now, but what if their program started falling, then where do you put them? I just have a ton of questions on how this would improve the overall quality of Indiana wrestling, not just adding numbers to smaller schools. 

[Y2CJ41]

I wrestled  high school in IL when it was still a 2 class system and was in the A, or smaller school, division.   I went to state my junior year and placed 3rd at 145 my senior year and always wondered how I would have fared in AA.  I believe I would have made the tourney in AA but placing would have been difficult.  Shortly after I graduated the IHSA moved a Catholic powerhouse (Providence New Lenox) to AA.  Their 105 lbr had won a title at at A as a junior and then, for his senior season, had to compete in AA where he placed 5th.   However, a few short years later, after they faced AA competition week in and week out, Providence once again became dominant in AA and they are still a force today.  If Indiana goes to a class system and schools like Bellmont and MD are moved to the small school class, they will run rough shod over the competition.  Will their programs begin to suffer?  Not sure.  Their conferences will still be in tact where they'll face lager schools and they'll be able to still go to tourney's like the Al Smith in the regular season but eventually, maybe 25 years down the line, if they were thrown back into the big school class, they'd probably take their lumps because their post season experience won't be as rigorous as it is now.  Being a transplant I think the single calss system is unique and pretty cool but I can also tell you that class wrestling won't drive spectators away from the sport.  The Assembly Hall in Champaign is jammed for every state finals and I have memories that will last my lifetime.  Exposure for more wrestlers is also, probably a benefit by going to a class system.  I will say, however, that, to this day, I do wonder how I would have done in AA.  Kind of rambling, I know, but just a few thoughts and experiences to share

Bellmont wouldn't be a small school if the IHSAA split into two classes.  They would however be a middle sized team if there were three classes.  The cut-off based on last year's enrollment numbers would be 741 students.  Bellmont had just under 900 students, so they would have to lose over 150 students to be considered a small school.  Also, if a school wants to compete up a division, the IHSAA allows them to do so for either 2 or 4 year span at a time before they have a choice to do it again.

[Y2CJ41]

I do agree with you that the sport is dying in small town Indiana, but it is also dying, imo, throughout the U.S. How many D1 programs are there now? 50-60? D2? Last I heard there was 45. I guess that is off the topic. Anyways, I am all for growing the sport, but I think that you would take away to much by going to a class system. I wrestled for MD and wouldn't want them to be in the small school division now, but what if their program started falling, then where do you put them? I just have a ton of questions on how this would improve the overall quality of Indiana wrestling, not just adding numbers to smaller schools. 

Generating more interest in the sport at the small school level is how it will help.  Our basketball team gets tons of interest when they won sectional with a record below .500 last year.  We win our conference, take a kid to state and get barely any recognition.  More kids that have a taste of the success or near that will help draw others to the sport.  At the small school level its even bigger because many of the youth get to see the high school stars in all sports more often. 

 

How many of the youth at MD looked up to you when you were in high school?  Did you ever go to a youth practice and think you might have been a movie star with the attention the kids gave you?  How do you think those kids would react if you were a 2x regional qualifier?

[mayerna]

Oh yea, we were "movie stars" and yes they looked up to all of us because we were winners, but do you want to lower the threshold of the winner to increase participation?

[Y2CJ41]

If you want to call it lowering the threshold, call it that, but I consider it giving more kids an opportunity for success and growing the sport.  Right now Indiana allows the least percentage of the wrestlers in any state to be state qualifiers.  Other states that have lowered the threshold have done quite well with it.  My question is why can't we?

 

For stats look at this

http://www.garrettwrestling.com/statebreakdown.html

[Boilermaker]

For team state I think class wrestling makes sense (2-3).  But for individual state, wouldn't it be better to do like NJ and qualify 24 or even 32?

[Y2CJ41]

Would that help as much as going to separate classes and guaranteeing half of the qualifiers are from small schools?

[BoilerUp]

Personally, I got into wrestling because the older kids in my grade school did.  I wanted to be like them but their success didn't play into it.  I couldn't wait to get to HS and wrestle. I really looked up to the HS guys, but in retrospect they were only slightly above average wrestlers for the most part and the team was average as a whole.  I can't say that a team being a state champ won't get another kid to want to try out, because I think it would help some.  However, I do not think switching to class wrestling will solve our problems and be worth it.  Just an opinion.

[Boilermaker]

Would that help as much as going to separate classes and guaranteeing half of the qualifiers are from small schools?

 

I'm assuming that the sectional, regional, semi-state and state tourneys would push more kids through which would improve the chances of advancing small school kids.  Seems like its worth a shot and if it doesn't work then maybe at most 2 classes can be tried.

[Y2CJ41]

Lets just say for the purpose of the argument that there will be 8 extra spots at state now, top six from semi-state now get through.

 

With the stats that were presented(75% of the state qualifiers from big schools, 25% from small schools), would that mean that those extra spots would all go to small schools?  Or would they most likely go to the big schools like the 16 spots go right now?

 

Would that improve the numbers closer to the ideal mark of 50/50 that a single class system promotes?

[Boilermaker]

Lets just say for the purpose of the argument that there will be 8 extra spots at state now, top six from semi-state now get through.

 

With the stats that were presented(75% of the state qualifiers from big schools, 25% from small schools), would that mean that those extra spots would all go to small schools?  Or would they most likely go to the big schools like the 16 spots go right now?

 

Would that improve the numbers closer to the ideal mark of 50/50 that a single class system promotes?

 

If I very high percentage of state qualifers come from the same 50-100 schools year after year I'd reconsider because that means 200-250 schools are being left out of the picture every year.  However, I don't have these types of numbes.

[Y2CJ41]

There are 60 teams in the past 11 years that have not had a state qualifier. Of those teams 12 are big schools, 48 are small schools.

 

The 1/3 smallest schools have accounted for 301 state qualifiers

The 2/3 middle schools have accounted for 745 state qualifiers

The 3/3 biggest schools have accounted for 1417 state qualifiers

 

The 1/2 smallest schools have accounted for 669 state qualifiers

The 2/2 biggest schools have accounted for 1794 state qualifiers

 

If everyone was equal and this was a perfect world, over that span of time each school would have had 7.971 state qualifiers. Rounding that up to 8, there have been 15 schools that are right on the average, there are 95 that are above the average and......198 that are below the average. Of those teams that fall below the average, 131 of them are small schools.

[NickS]

Good choice not to get into a typing argument with me

 

In all seriousness, its not the competition that we are afraid of, all of the coaches and wrestlers want to face and beat the best competition.  The #1 reason I am for class wrestling is to help the sport grow.  I personally believe its dying at the small school level here in Indiana.  Why not grow the sport at the small school level?  The more kids that have success or even a little taste of it(semi-state qualifiers or regional qualifiers) the more that will come out for the sport AND more importantly stay with the sport for a longer period of time as a coach, parent, or fan. 

 

You could be right about wrestling interest deteriorating (I hate you using the word dying) at small schools.  But I was under the impression from what I've read on themat.com, that wrestling interest is deteriorating as a whole, not just at small schools.  Not sure if it is true or what, just my impressions.

[Boilermaker]

There are 60 teams in the past 11 years that have not had a state qualifier.  Of those teams 12 are big schools, 48 are small schools. 

 

The 1/3 smallest schools have accounted for 301 state qualifiers

The 2/3 middle schools have accounted for 745 state qualifiers

The 3/3 biggest schools have accounted for 1417 state qualifiers

 

The 1/2 smallest schools have accounted for 669 state qualifiers

The 2/2 biggest schools have accounted for 1794 state qualifiers

 

If everyone was equal and this was a perfect world, over that span of time each school would have had 7.971 state qualifiers.  Rounding that up to 8, there have been 15 schools that are right on the average, there are 95 that are above the average and......198 that are below the average.  Of those teams that fall below the average, 131 of them are small schools.

 

If we had 2 classes where would you draw the line.  If already discussed, sorry but 45 pages is too much to read thru.

[Y2CJ41]

I would draw the line straight down the middle as they do other classed sports in the IHSAA.  The cutoff enrollment would be 741 students per last year's data.

[Boilermaker]

I would draw the line straight down the middle as they do other classed sports in the IHSAA.  The cutoff enrollment would be 741 students per last year's data.

 

741 is fairly small; not my preference but i'd be open to 2 classes.  However, 3 classes and IMO it would become a bad idea.  I didn't realize that IN was at the extreme compared to other states.

[Y2CJ41]

http://garrettwrestling.com/proof2008.htm

 

Go to the All Schools tab and you can see the breakdown into two and three classes.