Class Wrestling?????

[tspray1]

he doesn't former... he said that being sarcastic.... it was a tongue in cheek comment .. be careful what ya say y2 some people can't reason type very well.

[GladSwede]

Mr. Spray,

On average for far do your kids have to drive to find summer wrestling? Do you have an open gym? How many neighboring schools have open gym? What is the annual income of your community?

 

It seems reasonable to me that all these things affect how likely it is for a small school to field 14 decent wrestlers or even 1 wrestler that has a shot at winning state. Big schools have a better chance year in and year out to find more wrestlers whose parents can afford to get them involved in aau wrestling. If there's a 10% chance that a kids parents will be able to afford sending him to camps or summer wrestling activities, then a school with 10x more kids than another has a better chance of consistently having these kids wrestle.  I think this is the basis for why private schools are able to be small and competitive. If they can afford to go to a private school most of the parents can probably afford the camps and extra tourneys. 

[Hillbilly JIM]

Mr. Spray,

On average for far do your kids have to drive to find summer wrestling? Do you have an open gym? How many neighboring schools have open gym? What is the annual income of your community?

 

It seems reasonable to me that all these things affect how likely it is for a small school to field 14 decent wrestlers or even 1 wrestler that has a shot at winning state. Big schools have a better chance year in and year out to find more wrestlers whose parents can afford to get them involved in aau wrestling. If there's a 10% chance that a kids parents will be able to afford sending him to camps or summer wrestling activities, then a school with 10x more kids than another has a better chance of consistently having these kids wrestle.  I think this is the basis for why private schools are able to be small and competitive. If they can afford to go to a private school most of the parents can probably afford the camps and extra tourneys.   

 

so now its a money issues, as if big schools don't have kids that have parents who can't afford the extras

[BoilerUp]

Mr. Spray,

On average for far do your kids have to drive to find summer wrestling? Do you have an open gym? How many neighboring schools have open gym? What is the annual income of your community?

 

It seems reasonable to me that all these things affect how likely it is for a small school to field 14 decent wrestlers or even 1 wrestler that has a shot at winning state. Big schools have a better chance year in and year out to find more wrestlers whose parents can afford to get them involved in aau wrestling. If there's a 10% chance that a kids parents will be able to afford sending him to camps or summer wrestling activities, then a school with 10x more kids than another has a better chance of consistently having these kids wrestle.  I think this is the basis for why private schools are able to be small and competitive. If they can afford to go to a private school most of the parents can probably afford the camps and extra tourneys.   

 

so now its a money issues, as if big schools don't have kids that have parents who can't afford the extras

 

I agree, there will be poverty at both. 

[GladSwede]

Yes there will be. There will be more people in poverty. But there will also be more people out of poverty. That's how stats work. If a stat holds true for a whole and you break up the whole unevenly, then the more dense the area is the more people will be that fit into the stat. 10% of 5000 is always less than 10% 50,000.

Of course poverty is an issue. Those that can afford things can do it, those that can't...well can't. That's a pretty easy concept to understand.

And before anyone points out that so and so didn't have money and won state or whatever I'm well aware that like most stats there is going to be some overlap. But an individual does not negate the other 98% that povert negatively affects there ability to succeed.

I thought this was a pretty easy concept to understand. They use to teach it in 100 level soc classes. The example they always gave was with education. If I can afford to give my child a tutor, a computer, send him to a "good" school, or get him whatever help he needs with whatever then the odds of him succeeding are greatly increased.

[NickS]

So we should determine classes by financial stability then?

[GladSwede]

of course not. But if we are arguing the advantage of a large school vs small school, it's important to note the affect of money on wrestling and the advantage that large schools can have in this aspect. It also can help to explain why some bigger schools aren't as competitive and why some smaller schools are.

By no means would class wrestling solve poverty(before some wise guy decides to suggest I'm implying that)That's ridiculous.  But if a school like Delphi who right now seems to have the right mixture of great coaches and great wrestling families, in a class system they might be able to continue this trend for a couple of years instead of being competitive every 5 or 6 years or how ever long it takes to find that right combination of families who can afford it and wrestlers who want it. When was the last time you saw a public small school be competitive for more than a year or two? Western for a while there was pretty tough. But they eventually hit a dry spell and aren't the same as they were. You do on the hand see some big schools stay competitive for decades at a time. Now I know some of you are going to say that's coaching. I agree that coaching makes a difference. But I'm pretty sure winamac a 2a school that had a fantastic year in 95 or 96 and won a very tough twin lakes tourney hasn't changed coaches.  The number of state qualifiers and state champions has increased but the overall team just hasn't seen to be able to compete at the level it did then. I think they are a perfect example of what class wrestling could do for the sport. They had a decent team that made the papers and something like 10 years later they have their first state champion because a family decided to get their kid wrestling when he was young and could afford to send him to camps and nationals.  Last year they take three kids to state and I know one of them went to j robinson.I'm a firm believer that success breeds success. I dont' think you're going to change my mind on  that.  That's really where class wrestling would help our sport. You're going to see more parents who can afford it willing to spend money on their kids because of Chris Kastens and Ryan Pribbles.

[naco228]

607 posts.....jeez

[NickS]

Let's make it 608 posts then!!!  ;D

 

of course not. But if we are arguing the advantage of a large school vs small school, it's important to note the affect of money on wrestling and the advantage that large schools can have in this aspect. It also can help to explain why some bigger schools aren't as competitive and why some smaller schools are.

By no means would class wrestling solve poverty(before some wise guy decides to suggest I'm implying that)That's ridiculous.  But if a school like Delphi who right now seems to have the right mixture of great coaches and great wrestling families, in a class system they might be able to continue this trend for a couple of years instead of being competitive every 5 or 6 years or how ever long it takes to find that right combination of families who can afford it and wrestlers who want it. When was the last time you saw a public small school be competitive for more than a year or two? Western for a while there was pretty tough. But they eventually hit a dry spell and aren't the same as they were. You do on the hand see some big schools stay competitive for decades at a time. Now I know some of you are going to say that's coaching. I agree that coaching makes a difference. But I'm pretty sure winamac a 2a school that had a fantastic year in 95 or 96 and won a very tough twin lakes tourney hasn't changed coaches.  The number of state qualifiers and state champions has increased but the overall team just hasn't seen to be able to compete at the level it did then. I think they are a perfect example of what class wrestling could do for the sport. They had a decent team that made the papers and something like 10 years later they have their first state champion because a family decided to get their kid wrestling when he was young and could afford to send him to camps and nationals.  Last year they take three kids to state and I know one of them went to j robinson.I'm a firm believer that success breeds success. I dont' think you're going to change my mind on  that.  That's really where class wrestling would help our sport. You're going to see more parents who can afford it willing to spend money on their kids because of Chris Kastens and Ryan Pribbles.

 

I'm going to start off by posing this question.  Do quality wrestlers make strong programs or do strong programs make quality wrestlers?

 

You mention schools like Delphi, Western, and Winamac only being competitive or tough every few years or so and that class wrestling would help them.  I have to ask, what would be your definition of being competitive then?  If your definition is by number of state qualifiers/champions I guess a class system would help them.  But adding these labels doesn't improve the quality of wrestling for these schools.  Delphi is sending 5 to state this year from my count.  In a class system, they may send 8 or 9 (don't know really).  The point is the skill of each wrestler on Delphi's team will be exactly the same, regardless of which system they're in.

 

You also make an interesting argument about success breeds success.  I agree with this somewhat, but it's not that cut and dry.  The coaching staff and the way the program is structured is more of a determinant of kids staying and improving in the sport, not the number of state qualifiers the school has.  You make the program appealing to the child, then the parents will see the child's interest in wrestling.  Thus the parents will put money into the sport for the kid (hopefully).  Then when the child grows up to being an adult, he'll feel obligated to stay with the sport and it pretty much snowballs from there.

 

When I started out in the youth program (which was in Ohio), I fell in love with the sport.  I put alot of work into the sport and a part of my personal identity has derived from wrestling.  This is the reason why I'm still involved and love the sport, and it has NOTHING to do with any of my achievements or medals I won. 

 

This is where Indiana falls behind most of the "hotbed wrestling states."  There aren't alot of people that feel that obligation to the sport, but I feel we're getting better at.  Look at the Howes', Tsirtsis', Escobedos'.  We seem to be putting up a few all-americans consistently the past few years, collegiately.  My Indiana experience only goes back about 15 years, but have we ever had this type of national success before?

[Y2CJ41]

OK here goes..Class wrestling only for teams. Two classes split down the middle of enrollment, but.any school can bump up to the larger class for a 2-3 year period. No class for individual. As a coach here in Az. told me yesterday, I am a victim of the system. 6 classes brought on by football coaches who all wanted to be state chanps and the Az  athletic association made it mandatory in all sports. Win 7 matches over two weeks and you are a state champion. Are there outstanding kids in all classes you bet! Is the state tournament diluted? Sure thing! Are the coaches happy about the way it is? NO! For the life of me I just can't see what would be so terrible about bringing another 8 schools and communities to a team state wrestling finals. More people, more excitement, and a chance for the small enrollment teams to get a chance for some bragging rights.

Coach,

You went from one extreme to the other in terms of class wrestling.  Arizona would be fine with two classes and maybe three at the most.  In Arizona about 55% of the kids qualify for state, to me that is ridiculous and definitely does not do anyone any good.  Being a regional qualifier is more prestigious in Indiana than being a state qualifier in Arizona.  In Indiana, we allow 5.19% of the wrestlers in the state to qualify for state.  This is the lowest percentage in the nation.  We have the most exclusive state tournament in the nation. 

 

If we would double our state qualifiers by adding a second division, we would be in the top 8 of most exclusive state tournaments.  If you look at the states that would surround us, they have class wrestling and seem to being doing just fine.  The sport would grow at all levels because you would have more great match-ups throughout the state.  I would love to see the Garrett vs. Snider dual meet grow when you have a few 1A state placers that will be wrestling against some 2A state placers.  That would bring increased fan interest because they would want to know who the best is. 

 

Stats were compiled here

http://garrettwrestling.com/statebreakdown.html

[Y2CJ41]

An individual at a small school has the exact same opportunities to make it to state as a big school.  But the odds are 3x more individuals with the natural talent will be at a big school.  It is not, however, the size of the school that is causing an individual to have the natural talent.

Do you agree or disagree?

Agree, size of the school does not affect the natural talent.  Size of the school however does affect if the wrestler reaches the potential of that talent.  They will do this by generally having more and better coaches, more and better quality practice partner, more and better facilities, and a greater chance to specialize in one sport.

With that in mind, if individuals from big schools had some advantage just by virtue of the fact that they are from a big school that outweighed any advantages/disadvantages an individual from a small school has, it would skew the numbers so that there would be more qualifiers from big schools than could be predicted by the probability of where natural talent will happen to be.  Your numbers indicate that there is no such advantage.  Big schools are likely to have 3x as much of the natural talent and have 3x the number of individual state qualifiers.  Therefore, factoring in all the advantages/disadvantages of being from a big school and all the advantages/disadvantages of being from a small school, it all appears to balance out (big schools don't have more qualifiers than would be predicted just based on the probable distribution of natural talent). 

 

Do you agree or disagree? 

Disagree, my numbers show that big schools and small schools are allotted the same number of spots for a chance to generate state qualifiers and through the same number of spots there is a 3X more likely chance that a wrestler is from a big school.  Big schools have the ability to tap into the natural talent easier than small schools due to the reasons listed above.

 

Do you agree that an individual without any wrestling experience prior to high school from Garrett, South Adams, Bluffton, or Yorktown is more likely to be developed into a state qualifier than an individual without experience prior to high school from Marion?

I don't know enough about the Marion program to make a fair judgment.

 

What about an individual with experience prior to high school from Garrett, South Adams, Bluffton, or Yorktown (because those programs have middle school programs and USA clubs) versus an individual with no experience from Marion?

I don't know enough about the Marion program to make a fair judgment.

[NickS]

In Indiana, we allow 5.19% of the wrestlers in the state to qualify for state.  This is the lowest percentage in the nation.  We have the most exclusive state tournament in the nation.

 

I still don't get why the exclusiness of our state tournament has any negative effect on our state's wrestling.  Looking at your numbers, the top 3 most exclusive states are...

 

1. Indiana 5.19%

2. California 5.49%

3. Pennsylvania 6.60%

 

California and Pennsylvania aren't quite as exclusive as Indiana, but pretty darn close.  Yet, their wrestling is far superior to ours.  You mean to tell me that difference of .3% (California) and 1.41% (Pennsylvania) is the big reason why they're better than us?

 

 

If we would double our state qualifiers by adding a second division, we would be in the top 8 of most exclusive state tournaments.  If you look at the states that would surround us, they have class wrestling and seem to being doing just fine.  The sport would grow at all levels because you would have more great match-ups throughout the state.

 

What if we add a second division, but keep the same number of state qualifiers.  Do you think that would make the sport grow at all levels?

[trademak]

 

Do you agree that an individual without any wrestling experience prior to high school from Garrett, South Adams, Bluffton, or Yorktown is more likely to be developed into a state qualifier than an individual without experience prior to high school from Marion?

I don't know enough about the Marion program to make a fair judgment.

 

What about an individual with experience prior to high school from Garrett, South Adams, Bluffton, or Yorktown (because those programs have middle school programs and USA clubs) versus an individual with (no - I think this was unintended) experience from Marion?

I don't know enough about the Marion program to make a fair judgment.

 

 

Oooh, oooh, pick me!  I hate to say it because I am on the fence on this issue,  but those are two very good points.  Even knowing little about the program at Marion most of us can see the wrestlers from Garrett etc. have greater opportunities for development.  That may be the exception that proves the rule, I don't know.  But even a casual observer should be able to see the obvious here.

[Fabio Jr.]

wcs whats your obsession with having 16  state qualifiers?

 

the point is not to make us an instantaneous powerhouse, where its more of a fact of leveling the playing field so kids from smaller schools will have a much better chance of being able to go out and showcase their talents in the state tournament.

 

I want to know why 1 class is better than 2?

[BoilerUp]

An individual at a small school has the exact same opportunities to make it to state as a big school. But the odds are 3x more individuals with the natural talent will be at a big school. It is not, however, the size of the school that is causing an individual to have the natural talent.

Do you agree or disagree?

Agree, size of the school does not affect the natural talent. Size of the school however does affect if the wrestler reaches the potential of that talent. They will do this by generally having more and better coaches, more and better quality practice partner, more and better facilities, and a greater chance to specialize in one sport.

 

I would have to disagree with saying small schools do not have good coaches. I feel they are devoted and as dedicated as any and this is an insult.

[meto]

i would be for class wrestling if at the end there be a meet were all the champions meet and find out who the true champ is

[Y2CJ41]

I said generally they have more and better coaches.  More good coaches are going to go to a big school for factors such as talent pool and more money.  Its also a lot easier to find a teaching job at a bigger school since they will simply have more teachers leaving and retiring year after year.  Also add to the fact that they can have more assistants and pay them better as to why a coach would like to be at a bigger school.

[Y2CJ41]

i would be for class wrestling if at the end there be a meet were all the champions meet and find out who the true champ is

Say for instance there is no "true" champion declared.  What would happen, Armageddon, mass riots at Conseco or the world simply coming to an end?

[meto]

i would be for class wrestling if at the end there be a meet were all the champions meet and find out who the true champ is

Say for instance there is no "true" champion declared.  What would happen, Armageddon, mass riots at Conseco or the world simply coming to an end?

no but will give the wrestler from the smaller schools alittle more exposure for college recruiting

[Y2CJ41]

Why would we want that? 

[allyourbase]

i would be for class wrestling if at the end there be a meet were all the champions meet and find out who the true champ is

Say for instance there is no "true" champion declared.  What would happen, Armageddon, mass riots at Conseco or the world simply coming to an end?

 

Why have any champion at all, it would be better for the moral of all the kids if we considered them all winners.  Get rid of the State tournament, replace it with friendship meets.

[Y2CJ41]

So you say the Pennsylvania state tournament is a "friendship meet?"  There sure are a lot of fans that pack Hershey Arena for a damn friendship meet.

 

The same goes for Ohio, I guess people taking off of work Thursday AND Friday to go to a friendship meet is pretty cool.  I wish we had a friendship meet that would sell out Conseco every year!

[allyourbase]

Oh the language!

 

In any event, we know your stance, you should know all of ours.  Can we let this thread  die a painful death now? :'(

[Y2CJ41]

Nope, not until I watch the Ohio "friendship meet" finals again that was on TV last year.

[Silence Dogood]

An individual at a small school has the exact same opportunities to make it to state as a big school.  But the odds are 3x more individuals with the natural talent will be at a big school.  It is not, however, the size of the school that is causing an individual to have the natural talent.

Do you agree or disagree?

Agree, size of the school does not affect the natural talent.  Size of the school however does affect if the wrestler reaches the potential of that talent.  They will do this by generally having more and better coaches, more and better quality practice partner, more and better facilities, and a greater chance to specialize in one sport.

With that in mind, if individuals from big schools had some advantage just by virtue of the fact that they are from a big school that outweighed any advantages/disadvantages an individual from a small school has, it would skew the numbers so that there would be more qualifiers from big schools than could be predicted by the probability of where natural talent will happen to be.  Your numbers indicate that there is no such advantage.  Big schools are likely to have 3x as much of the natural talent and have 3x the number of individual state qualifiers.  Therefore, factoring in all the advantages/disadvantages of being from a big school and all the advantages/disadvantages of being from a small school, it all appears to balance out (big schools don't have more qualifiers than would be predicted just based on the probable distribution of natural talent). 

 

Do you agree or disagree? 

Disagree, my numbers show that big schools and small schools are allotted the same number of spots for a chance to generate state qualifiers and through the same number of spots there is a 3X more likely chance that a wrestler is from a big school.  Big schools have the ability to tap into the natural talent easier than small schools due to the reasons listed above.

 

Do you agree that an individual without any wrestling experience prior to high school from Garrett, South Adams, Bluffton, or Yorktown is more likely to be developed into a state qualifier than an individual without experience prior to high school from Marion?

I don't know enough about the Marion program to make a fair judgment.

 

What about an individual with experience prior to high school from Garrett, South Adams, Bluffton, or Yorktown (because those programs have middle school programs and USA clubs) versus an individual with no experience from Marion?

I don't know enough about the Marion program to make a fair judgment.

 

I understand that they are given the same number of spots from which to generate a state qualifier, but as you agreed, the natural talent isn't distributed evenly (big schools are 3x as likely to have the naturally talented individuals).  From an individual's perspective, however, this doesn't matter.  He is naturally talented or he isn't.  He can't change that by switching from a small school to a big school. 

 

Your argument is that big schools give an individual a benefit beyond natural talent (i.e., better opportunities to develop natural talent).  But if there was such an advantage to being from a big school it should skew the numbers to be different than what would be predicted from the probable talent distribution.  It doesn't appear that that is the case as the numbers remain 75%/25%.  So it would seem that any advantages/disadvantages of being an individual from a big school are balanced out against the advantages/disadvantages of being an individual from a small school. 

 

If you disagree, let me know where I am incorrect.

 

I'd like to know your thoughts on the following example.  In track, each school is allowed to enter 2 contestants for each event at Sectional.  So let's consider the 100 meter dash.  Probability would predict that 75% of the fastest individuals would be at big schools and 25% would be at small schools (because big schools have 75% of all students and small schools have 25%).  Would you expect, based on this information, that smalls schools would have 50% of the state qualifiers in the 100 meter dash?  If you do, how do you explain it - the big schools have 3x as many fast people?  If you don't, how is wrestling any different?