allyourbase

I think I heard Marco Rubio use the same logic last night trying to explain why he's still going to win the Republican nomination 

So if you were a state qualifier in a classed system, would you have been any better of a wrestler or recruit? 

I'm just hoping to hear that he's back on the mat for some of the national events that are happening this spring.  The school situation we can wonder about later this summer.

Y2, I want to first admit that you are a really good debator, maybe even a masterdebator?  I don't know that's up for debation.  After I compliment your skills of arguing I'm going to try and learn from what you have done many many times in these class wrestling arguments.
 
First, you break down peoples post into paragraph and dissect peoples sentences out of context to try and expose different meaning out of what they are saying... which is what you will more and likely do to this post.
 
Second, you skew data by consistently calling MD class 3A which they are not!  I'll agree 100% that they are an outlier based off the fact that what surrounds that school is an insane wrestling community that live, breed, breathe wrestling, however when someone suggest a fact that does not promote class wrestling, you throw that fact out the window and call it an outlier. Also, couldn't you say the top 5 wrestling states that have class wrestling are an outlier?  How about we throw them out and consider them states with 1 class because they come from a community with strong ties to a great wrestling background.  We then use this argument to say states that class wrestling ruin the sport.  It makes no sense, you can not skew data. 
 
You will argue point 2 by saying MD will bump up.  Doesn't this also go against many of your other points about classing the sport?  You're gonna tell me that the MD coach will bump up his individuals from class A where they could have an absurd amount of champs and dominate the field (which would probably grow the confidence of 1A right).  MD will bump up to 3A for team but would not take the opportunity away from the individuals to wrestle at 1A.  That point being said brings me to point number 3 which you consistently mention kids in small schools are not as talented because of your "statistics."  You then go on to mention that classing Indiana Wrestling will not water down the state tournament.  Basically what you are proposing is classing state wrestling according to skill level.  You are bumping up MD to 3A in all your stats and assuming that's what they will do because it fits your argument and because they're good.  So 3A is not Big Schools?  You will be proposing that we have State Champ of Good Schools, State Champ of ok Schools and State champ of Struggling Schools.  This will then make struggling schools better and grow the sport.  I believe you would say that statement is Ludacris!
 
I want to leave a space so you have room to dissect this without taking it out of context.  My fourth point has to be the fact that you claim people who argue for class wrestling primarily base there argument around emotion. I will make a thesis to this paragraph containing two points: wrestling is about emotion as it is a sport that teaches many life lessons, and I believe this is another place where you hypocritically contradict yourself as you use emotion in your argument.  I don't care what any person for a one class system that we have says, you consistently come up with some reason to dispute it because you love to argue.  They could say a fact that in a one class system semi-state qualifiers do get recruited and yes those coaches from private schools send letters, I might also add that it might seem that a person who places at state will be recruited by colleges more, all of this depends on other circumstances. I have not read very many if any post where you admit that there are pro's and con's to both systems?  You fail to see anything benefical about our current system: true champ, exciting finals, feeling of accomplishment of being a state placer in this system?  On to second point of my thesis so you can follow, the supporters of the one class system support what it stands for be it small school or big school.  It has been stated earlier that wrestling in this system no matter how far the wrestler goes means a lot to that wrestler.  This is coming from past wrestlers so it's first hand experience of their emotion of how our system is.  To class our system by means of point 3 which is how you are proposing it by including MD in 3A is such a non-wrestling attitude at looking at this it sickens me.  I can't beat the best at the system we currently have so let's class it and give me a medal anyway and then maybe college coaches will notice me and sport will grow.  Is that your ideology? You argue that those kids won't know the difference and that a medal is a medal.  A medal is just a piece of material.  I saw an old teamstate medal on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-2003-Indiana-High-School-Wrestling-State-Championship-Medal-Mater-Dei-W-Box-/381337728206?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368
You can buy that and put it on a shelf if that's how much the medal would mean to you.  A medal is a symbol for all the hardwork and dedication that wrestler put in it.  I believe wrestling probably tought the owner that lost that medal more than what the medal itself meant to him.
 
My actual thoughts on the topic besides pointing out many of what I consider to be flaws in your argument would obviously be that I am for the single class system.  I am aware of some of the advantages that a multi-class system might have when you look at Illinois, but I don't feel that Indiana has as much depth of wrestling at each level.  There are not consistently enough wrestling communities, or ties to each background throughout our state to consider this a solid option for our sport.  This is also backed by your "statistics".  If there were a great majority of wrestling depth throughout the state to make each class very competitive then it would be a different story.  Separating studs from the rest of the group does not sharpen the other wrestlers skills.  In my opinion,  I feel Indiana wrestling fans love the traditional setup we have. There might be houses for sale over in Illinois however if class wrestling emotionally means that much to you.

Well said yet again.

Sure, but I'm still not drinking the class Kool-Aid!! I could explain further but it's time to go home and my mom makes a killer meatloaf....

Yes, I am familiar.  It's called lazy recruiting.  It's the same reason kids with measurables get scholarships, and the HS stud who's an inch too short or a tenth too slow can't get a D1 offer.  It a sad reality.

How many kids looking to go to a D3 school to wrestle are being turned away?  The financial package might be cost prohibitive but I don't think coaches are going to turn them away. 
 
As for me not mentioning class wrestling, isn't that what this thread is about? I am just trying to put a broader perspective on things.  For the record I am not a proponent of class wrestling if you're looking for a definitive answer. 

Three things:
 
1. I agree with you that they prefer Wrestler A, and I think you're making the same points I was.  Small schools can't recruit "blue chippers" with sub par academics. 
2. Your wrestler A has a 1700 SAT. I assume that's a typo?
3. NAIA and D3 are different animals 

No, what I am saying is whether he's a state placer in a two class system or a semi-state qualifier in a one class system a D3 program will recruit him regardless. Going back to what I stated earlier, most D3 programs use their sports teams as marketing tools to recruit kids to go there.  I am also not suggesting that large colleges are better than small colleges and vice versa; that's a personal choice for each person to decide.  What I am saying is a multi class system is not going to be the boon to recruiting that is being alleged, IMO.  As mentioned earlier by someone else in this thread - most D1 schools are looking at the bigger national tourneys so they can compare apples to apples.  Kind of like how colleges want to see an SAT/ACT score more than high school GPA.  

Schools offer financial aid too athletes in two parts, (Academic and Athletic). Also need based scholarships are also available, but very limited.     Note the athletic team is restricted to a certain budget and scholarships depending on level.  Keep in mind private schools have a significantly higher sticker price but offer dramatically larger scholarships to bring in line with public schools.
 
The academic awards are based on a grid between SAT/ACT score and GPA.    So the higher your GPA and SAT, you fall in a higher reward spot on that grid.
 
Here's a more realistic comparison for a small NAIA school offering a scholarship.
 
 
Small Private NAIA School:
Wrestler A :  3.8 GPA,  1700 SAT  ( Semi State Qualifier)
 
Tuition +Room and Board          $43,000
   Academic Scholarship            ($25,000) (based on predetermined formula)
   Athletic Scholarship                ($4,000)
 
Total Cost wrestler A                 $14,000
 
 
Wrestler B:  3.0 GPA  1000 SAT  (State Placer)
 
 Tuition + Room & Board            $43,000
 Academic scholarship               ( $8,000) (based on pre-determined formula)
 Athletic Scholarship                ( $12,000)
 
Total Cost Wrestler B                $23,000
 
Yes,  coach would have wrestler B, the state placer and is offering him $8K more scholarship,  but his chances of recruiting him is going to more difficult because it costs him more to go to school there.    Wrestler A can go to private school for less than the local public school.   Wrestler B is paying more than the local public school.   Also factor in that wrestler A is more likely to succeed at the academic institution and more likely to stay around for four years.   I argue that the college coach would more likely recruit wrestler A.

True, and he might be in deeper college loan debt because of it.  

I'm sure you're able to follow the conversation nonetheless.

Even if they don't receive any money at all just by getting the chance to wrestle in college might be what helps get that kid through school... I know if it wasn't for sports in high school I probably wouldn't have ever made good enough grades to get into college...
 
Now whether college is right for that kid or not is a whole different topic of discussion... Lots of kids take on huge amounts of debt just to go to college and it ends up hurting them even more in the long run.

But in your humble opinion is this a true indicator of how good said "3-time champ" is on the next level? Because that's what this whole argument is geared towards, the next level, not high school competition.
 
Is the University getting their "money's worth" on a 3-time 1A champion vs. a 2-time place winner on the 3A level? Which wrestler is better? For that matter, which "class" is better? Who is the better investment? How do you compare without like opponents?

But it doesn't...
 
 
Is it really THAT important? lol I get your point but you're searching for things here... I would say its the same thing as you guys putting out data for 3 classes yet arguing for a 2 class system...
 
This is a solid point but the fact of the matter is that is up to the college recruiter to decide. (Thinking about the kids here...) Does it really matter? As long as it is another one of INDIANA's kids going to wrestle and not IL or PA. What if you have a DIII college there who can't offer athletic scholarships so most "GOOD" kids wouldn't want to attend there but they find a 1A kid who doesn't have any other offers and this is the one opportunity he has to go to college? This is how I could see more kids going to college to wrestle from a classed system. Yes I would agree most DI programs aren't going to be heavily recruiting 1A high school kids but maybe smaller schools will...

My argument is that I can't understand why some feel that it's necessary for an inferior wrestler to get "exposure" over a superior wrestler, and only because the inferior wrestler was a "disadvantage" because their school is small and they don't have the same resources / practice partners / etc
 
We could apply an arbitrary label to a kid saying he's a 4-time small school champion, but if he still gets his butt kicked 8 out of 10 times by the large school kid that can't get out of the semistate ticket round, then why do you feel he's more deserving to get that exposure and college attention?  Why not make 6 classes, so we have 6 kids that can apply the "state champion" label every year and get exposure?
 
Joe, you mention that a college coach will want to come and watch 672 kids instead of 224.  That sounds like a 2-day event to me.  So why not keep the same 672 wrestlers, but expand the state finals by 2 rounds, or add 1 round and add wrestle-backs (32 kids per weight class = 448 wrestlers).  Now, the "best" wrestlers are there for the college coaches to watch.  Cody Crary from Munster didn't make it to state this year -- lost in the ticket round to Jack Tolin.  So with your premise, it would make more sense for a college coach to see a small school guy (not the small school state champ, who would likely make it to state under any format, but those #8-16 small school wrestlers) to have college exposure more than Crary.
 
Again, I say we focus on raising the technical abilities of all wrestlers, keep the classed team state, and expand the individual state to see Indiana wrestling really take off

I remember Lincoln McIlravy won 5 in SD. When they announced it at the Big Tens we wondered if he'd been held back and how he got a 5th year. (found out later he won his first as an 8th grader)

Good One!
 
With the "classic robe" warm-up.

Jon McClain from Webo. He finished 5th 4th and 2nd. In the early 90s. Comes into the Avon room and still beats everyone up!

Idk if Chad Red and Nick Lee were his only problem after the Rumph match. That kid will be a force.

In freestyle, slams are legal....

#TheCounty is starting to sound more like #TheKanye

No change of heart here.
I try my best to listen to the sales pitch of the size class supporters but sorry no sale.
Please do not water down the Indiana State Championships, just as Indiana  is finally getting more respect every year.
I hate to be a downer but college coaches look at National tournaments more than any state tournament.

Very well said.