Y2CJ41

I think we will just have to agree to disagree. The lack of an opportunity to wrestle at state is not killing wrestling. The hard work and amount of effort that goes into becoming a state quality wrestler might be. Kids are different today and that's a fact. Many would rather have it handed to them than to get any satisfaction from the effort it takes to get there. You want numbers, check Ben Davis wrestling numbers, how about Southport and Decatuer Central are a few big schools that I have seen this year that aren't carrying full rosters. It's easy to see in your results page with the large amount of forfeits from these schools. The inner city Indianapolis schools have trouble fielding full teams.

 

Attendance at basketball has dropped for years, to say it's thriving, I would say is a stretch.

That's a pretty sad attitude to say kids won't work hard. I had teammates 20 years ago that wouldn't work hard and the old folks then said the same thing the old folks say now. Kids will work hard if pushed, kids want to succeed and saying that they are lazy and want everything handed to them is an easy out because you can't prove it. 

The quality of wrestling in this state is better than 20 years ago, but with lazier kids? I don't buy it.

You can point out big schools with forfeits, good for you. I can probably name 70 of the 1A teams with forfeits... can you name 70 3A teams with a forfeit?

If the focus isn't on 3A as you say Y2, then why were they placed in the middle during team state.  Why wouldn't it be laid out 1, 2, 3.  Seems like most of the hype is focused on 3A, also a lot of comparing whether or not 1A Prairie Heights can beat any of the 3A teams.  The fact that people are asking the question brings me back to why would we change.  People want to know who the best is when you go to state, if not we would give everyone a metal that goes to it.

If the focus was on 3A then we wouldn't have any classes at this event anyway and it would have been done similar to how the IHSAA did it.

We would change to grow the sport...are we really coaching just for the state champs? If I were I would have hung up the whistle a long time ago. People in other states know who the best is because of in-season and out of season events. How much more lore would it add to the Al Smith when a 1A and 2A champ are battling it out in the finals? 

I will always want to compete in a one class system. If you look at basketball for example: I have seen a rather down turn in attendance since they went to classes but then again I live near New Castle and I was around in the hay days when we filled their gymnasium with 9500 people during the sectionals. They are lucky to have a quarter of that now.

Basketball is thriving still. State tournament attendance was dropping drastically after the Damon Bailey years. It wasn't the class system.

Many large schools are finding it difficult to field full teams. Wrestling is hard, it's a grind and kids have so many outside distractions so I don't think classing wrestling is gonna see a huge explosion in numbers. Small schools only have so many athletes and many that might turn to wrestling at a big school are often basketball players at these schools.

"Many" is a rough word when you can't back it up with stats and facts. The numbers were posted on here within the past two years and 3A teams had close to 13 roster spots filled, while 1A had closer to 9 or 10. I'll try to find the stats.

Also it won't be an explosion, it will be an increase over 10-15 years in which you would see the affects.

Even with that, bigger schools will still see the same amount or more success in a two classed system. They would be affected very little.

I think expanding to 32 might get a few more thru to state but I don't think that's the answer either. Why change a good thing if it's working. We are one of 2 states that have one state champion and I think that's pretty awesome. Crowning state champs aren't the best thing about wrestling anyways, it's the life skills we want the kids to pick up. You know dedication, hardwork, responsibility, the drive to succeed and being accountable. Outwork your competition is what we preach. Get to a premium club, compete in the off season, do what it takes to make you successful.

Is our system working? Small schools are struggling to fill teams, big schools are struggling to fill full teams. We are NOT one of two states to have a single class champion. New Jersey, Kentucky, California, Vermont, Hawaii, and Delaware also have a single class state.

What would it hurt the sport if more kids were able to see the results of the dedication, hard work, responsibility, etc? The current wrestlers are our future coaches, parents, refs or super fans. More kids experiencing state will rub off on their teammates and others around them. What you don't see is if a kid from a small school qualifies for state his teammates will want to join them, they will experience state and be a lot more inclined to do more work to join them the next year. More kids will experience the ticket round and thus feel more inclined to go one step further. Not only would we help participation, but we'd also help our quality of wrestling.

On top of that, if you have ever noticed our state finals has very little appeal to college coaches. We have many kids that lose at semi-state that are capable small school college wrestlers. What coach would go to Indiana to see 224 kids, with half only having one match when they can go to Ohio(3 classes), Michigan(4 classes), Illinois(3 classes), etc and get a lot more bang for their buck. 

The tuff guy "one state champ" pride of our state is not helping our sport grow at the small school level, it is actually killing it.

Looks like some kooky internet in Wolcottville.....

I like being the underdog and over achieving, it creates a challenge which I am always up for. I remember an undefeated state champ from Turkey Run, 2 state champs from Union County and 1 from Winchester, last 3 all in the same year. So I know it can be done. Once again, we have confidence in several of our guys and their ability to compete against the best. I would never tell them that they aren't on a level playing field.

Preface: I am only in support of two classes.

Here are some stats to look over

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1r-4OoK27f6-4cfQlPpjYA--6h4Z9IbyXwmAwnAeo9cc/edit?usp=sharing

First and foremost I'm a fan of wrestling, as a fan of wrestling I like that we have our true champion, our spotlight, etc. However as someone that has coached at both big and small schools and someone that now promotes the sport I am left to wonder how much damage we are doing by having a single class system. There is no question that it "can happen" and "does happen."

Are we in this sport for just the state champs though? Are we only here as coaches and parents of this great sport for the state champs? I would hope not, I would think we are here to give our kids a great experience in this sport in hopes of they continue the great tradition with their kids. With that said does it really matter if you have to share a state title with others? Does Prairie Heights or Bellmont feel slighted by their titles this week? Do those in other states feel their state titles are "cheaper?" I wrestled in Ohio in college and when you'd ask a kid how he did at state he would say "champ, "3rd", "4th", etc...and very rarely would they include what division.

Now let's say we go to two classes and double the number of state qualifiers. Now we'd have about 10% of the varsity wrestlers qualifying for state, up from just over 5%. Note that this would still be one of the top 7 most difficult state tournaments in the country, so we would lose very little prestige. With an added 12 qualifiers for small schools(note approximately 4 qualify already) per weight we will see many more teams represented at the state finals. Many more kids, coaches, families, teams, and communities will get to participate in the parade of champions, enjoy a parade through the school halls, and all the other fun stuff that goes with going to state. Let's say 50 more schools are now represented at state each year(up from around 100). This means the sport is getting more attention at those schools, more attention then will trickle to the other students, parents, youth, and community. That kind of attention will help grow the sport.

When I was at Garrett as an athlete I was literally the SECOND semi-state qualifier in school history...that was in 1997! We were extremely mediocre and going to regional used to be a BIG DEAL. With a change of attitude and some hard work it is now expected that Garrett take athlete(s) to the state finals. After we got our first state qualifier the flood gates opened and it helped grow the program from the youth level up. Can that be done with the current setup? Of course, but again what are we sacrificing for our spotlight? Are we really hurting more than we are helping?

Lastly one typical comeback is, why not just increase the number of state qualifiers to 32? It would help, but in reality only four more small school athletes would get to state rather than 12 if you split into two classes.

@Y2, why are you so worried about classing individual wrestling? For a big school you sure seem worried about it, I don't see many small school coaches pushing for it. Why because to be the best you have to beat the best and like I said that's what my guys want. To compete against the best.

I was at Garrett, which has around 600 students for 10 years as a coach and many more during my glory days.

I see the difference in each school with my own two eyes and can identify Garrett isn't playing with the same deck of cards that Carroll is.

Any chance the IHSAA takes this back over with the big attendance now?

The immediate answer is no, but if this continues to grow it will open their eyes that class wrestling(and other sports) might not be too bad after all.

Bad things about using track to help seed high school folkstyle events is that most tournaments in the off-season are age group oriented, majority of incoming freshman are schoolboy and are not allowed to make the jump and wrestle a junior level in the tournaments I have gone to.  It also incorporates freestyle and greco results (this could be good or bad).  

 

Common sense between the coaches is probably the best criteria to keep in (as previously stated).  Lately, thanks to sites like this one, more and more people know the freshman as they are entering high school and are quick to recognize these high performing middle schooler's in the seeding meeting.  

Two years ago it was suggested I use the TrackWrestling ratings to seed the IHPO. For the most part everything was pretty good. HOWEVER, at one weight it had an 8th grader seeded first over numerous others with state placements. While the 8th grader is a very talented wrestler he wasn't even close to being seeded.

Amazing if it is true that the small schools are getting more kids out for the team due to team state, why wouldn't this help if our individual state was classed?

Would their finish at middle school state count?  Or, freestyle state?  Maybe Indianamat open...Fargo?  

Going to play devil's advocate here....because seeding meetings are always FUN

Insert middle school state, ISWA, IHPO, etc before placement

How do we judge a placement vs. going to semi-state or placing at the Al Smith the previous year? 

How do we judge a placement at 105lbs vs. one at 220lbs?

How do we judge an ISWA schoolboy state vs. cadet or junior?

Remember this has to be objective and something that a random coach with a kid sporting a fine record(1 or 2 losses) can't argue with.

So what are your criteria?

You have 30 coaches in a meeting trying to get their kids seeded, you have to have something objective to go upon or else mass chaos would ensue. Then on top of that you have coaches that miraculously don't know all their kid's losses or will literally LIE about their kids..but if the right person is in there he will call them out.

While Rooks was underseeded, it is never an easy task to get everyone seeded in an event like the Al Smith that brings together teams from all corners of the state. The only way is to have a separate entity seed the event based on rankings and such.  Rooks got a lot more favorable seed than Drew Hughes did as a freshman...he was 8th and that was like pulling teeth to get him THAT seed.

How would you think kids should be seeded? Please don't tell me about using records. Teams like Portage or Bellmont wrestle very good schedules or don't have 25+ matches like some teams. Should that eliminate a kid from being seeded because of some quality losses?

Does anyone know how the proposed downtown Ft Wayne arena would work? Not sure what size they're thinking if it even passes to be brought into fruition.

That isn't even close to being investigated at this time. Most of it is just talk and no action.

The Pepsi coliseum has been brought up more than once. It was investigated and the price tag was too much and they couldn't even guarantee the date

too bad New Castle don't have enough mat space . The best spectators view in the state .

what about Warren Central

There is very little room for fan and wrestler seating at Warren Central.

Westfield and Ball State both had a "two gym" setup with four mats in one main area then 8 in another 

Avon has a bigger field house with an indoor track around it. Not that it really matters

How many Expos did they use Y2?

I believe this venue has came up before:

 

40 minutes north of Fort Wayne, Prairie Heights has a great school farm with exceptional seating

Ok, so Westfield can't. does that eliminate all other schools in the state? 

Schools Avon size in the state have way better seating than the Coliseum. Even with 3K

Avon's fieldhouse is smaller than Westfield's. 

If it has to stay in Ft. Wayne, fix the seating. The fans can't see. If it staying the same you will have a riot on your hands next year. People were mad. 

The configuration can be fixed. If they opened a few more rows up top I think it would have lessened the issues, but I'm sure there was some issue with space from the walls and such. I have faith that the IHSWCA will make adjustments for next year.

Last year's attendance was also low due to a snow storm that kept a lot of fans home. I believe the attendance in the three previous years has hovered around 1000. You can expect growth, but doubling in size is something that is hard to plan for.

I am sure cost would be a factor but what about the convention center downtown Indy.

Cost is a HUGE factor there. I can't remember the numbers, but Fort Wayne was probably HALF as much.

Here are the rates for Fort Wayne

 http://www.memorialcoliseum.com/data/uploads/2016%20Space%20Rental%20Rates%20Web.pdf

Several High schools, but mats would not all be on one floor. Easier to watch your team. WC and Avon host big events. Seating is better at Avon. Those are just 2 examples. I am sure there are plenty of others. The 12 mats together should not be a priority. Fans being able to see should be. Wrestlers will wrestle on any mat, any where. 

It was more than cramped at Westfield and that was with half as many people there. There is no way they would have been able to accommodate 3000 people. 

Avon probably gets around 1500 total...using split sessions for freestyle state. Double that and see how cramped it gets.

What facility would be one that could hold 12 mats with great seating? 

I was in the bleachers all day. Hard to see, people had to stand and lots of complaining. From the bleachers you could hardly watch the 1 mat your team was on let alone 12 mats. Every time the announcer would tell people to get closer together without opening all the seats in the bleachers the fans got more upset. Many people asked for their money back. I was at Ball State last year and it was much easier to watch our team. I am not complaining, love the event. Just reporting facts. 

You also had half as many people at Ball State.

It was great to see this match along with a bunch of others where kids bumped up for the team. I loved seeing the lineup shuffles as it shows what a team event is really about.

It might be better to have blocks of 4 mats with teams sitting in the middle so the fans have an unobstructed view. However it would seem that they would need to open another expo center for that to happen. By no means is this something that CANNOT be done, with 2,300 fans at $15 a pop, it's only about an extra $1k for another expo.

There aren't many facilities in the state that can handle an event like this. There were well over 3000 people there(2300 fans and 700 wrestlers and coaches), which makes it very difficult to secure the right type of venue. There will be speed bumps along the way, but this year was finally a step in the right direction. I certainly hope they aren't thinking of expanding the number of teams quite yet until they get other things figured out.

By STEVE KRAH

A bunch of happy Bulldogs, Braves and Panthers left Fort Wayne’s Memorial Coliseum Saturday, Jan. 2.

Brownsburg (Class 3A), Bellmont (2A) and Prairie Heights (1A) each earned Indiana High School Wrestling Coaches Association State Duals titles before a record crowd of 2,331 in the fourth annual event.

For the second straight year, there were 12 teams in each division.

Coach Darrick Snider watched his Brownsburg team take down Warren Central 34-24 in the 3A final after taking down Perry Meridian 36-22 in the semifinals. Warren Central advanced to the championship by beating semifinal foe Evansville Mater Dei 36-19.

“Wow, it’s really been an emotional day,” Snyder said. “We felt like we belonged. We felt like we could wrestle anyone. We had a lot of people questioning whether we could compete with the top teams in the state. I’ve got a great group of kids who have worked hard.”

Snyder took over a program that had finished near the bottom of its conference and turned it into a championship team.

“We have turned the Titanic around,” Snyder said. “I have awesome support from my team and from my superintendent who was here all day. “We break on ‘state champions’ everyday from our 5 year-olds all the way to the high school program, we don’t break on ‘state runner-up.’ We’re here to win it. I have incredible respect for every team and every coach here, especially those last couple programs.”

Brownsburg moved to 12-0.

Coach Paul Gunsett’s Bellmont squad topped Jimtown 46-23 for the 2A crown after a 54-14 win against North Montgomery in the semifinals. With a dramatic 31-30 semifinals triumph, Jimtown handed Yorktown its first State Duals loss in four years.

Gunsett, in his first season as Braves head coach after 22 years as an assistant, talked about unfinished business.

“Since we finished second (in 2A) last year, our goal was to come back here and win the whole thing,” Gunsett said. “We had the core of our team back and every opportunity to do it. That was our focus.”

Gunsett’s team won its title just two days after the grueling two-day Al Smith Classic at Mishawaka.

“Our kids came here ready to fight and ready to wrestle,” Gunsett said. “They were prepared today. They knew what was on the line.

“We had excellent senior leadership.”

Bellmont improved to 15-1.

Jimtown coach Mark Kerrn talked about his squad’s determination.

“They are typical Jimtown Jimmies — no quit in them ever,” Kerrn said of his young lineup. “We had five freshmen in our lineup today (including Brayden Curtis who helped Jimtown edge Yorktown by taking the final match to overtime and avoid giving up a major decision or higher). It’s awesome. That took a lot of courage. Some other guys, we were just throwing in there into different weight classes. We had guys 10 and 15 pounds underweight today. They didn’t care, they just kept stepping up and battling. That’s what they do.”

The next-to-last match against Yorktown, saw Jimtown heavyweight Nick Mammolenti rally for a 4-3 overtime victory.

Coach Brett Smith’s Prairie Heights club walked off with the 1A hardware by besting Southmont 39-29. In the 1A semifinals, Prairie Heights bettered Adams Central 45-19 and Southmont downed Monrovia 34-30.

Prairie Heights had enjoyed runner-up and fourth-place finishes at the State Duals and now takes a title back to Brushy Prairie.

The Panthers went 30-3 in the 2014-15 and improved to 28-0 in 2015-16 with Saturday’s title-taking performance.

“These kids have been together since eighth grade,” Panthers coach Brett Smith said. “They’ve just bought into everything we’ve been doing. The kids are hungry. We were close to Yorktown last year. We were close to Lafayette Harrison. The kids have been really positive and upbeat.”

IHSWCA STATE DUALS

(At Memorial Coliseum, Fort Wayne)

Class 3A

Championship

BROWNSBURG 34, WARREN CENTRAL 24

106 — Ty Mills (BR) pinned Keyuan Murphy 1:11. 113 — Skylour Turner (WC) pinned Nick Weaver :56. 120 — Blake Mulkey (BR) dec. Dylan Culp 6-0. 126 — Joel McGhee (WC) dec. Ryan Bigelow 7-4. 132 — Connor Allen (BR) dec. Tim Wright 9-4. 138 — Brayton Lee (BR) pinned Marcus Scott :33. 145 — Matthew McKinney (WC) dec. Troy Owen 6-4.

152 — Trent Pruitt (WC) pinned Quienton Ingram 1:29. 160 — Dominic Herrick (WC) dec. Arkee Glover 6-3. 170 — Nathan Walton (BR) pinned Dezmen Goddard :31. 182 — CJ Damler (BR) maj. dec. Devon Blount 12-3. 195 — Tristen Tonte (WC) dec. Anthony Cicciarelli 9-2. 220 — Isaac McCormick (BR) dec. Cornelius Knox-Abbott 5-3. Hwt — Rickie Clark (BR) dec. Jasion Brogan 2-1.

Third Place

PERRY MERIDIAN 45, EVANSVILLE MATER DEI 18

106 — Sam Fair (PM) dec. Clay Egli 4-2. 113 — Blaine Mayer (MD) dec. Kolton Overley 14-8. 120 — Kyle Luigs (MD) pinned David Clayton 2:42. 126 — Jack Servies (PM) maj. dec. Joe Happe 11-3. 132 — DJ Brookbank (PM) pinned Kyle Embry1:31. 138 — Wyatt Montgomery (MD) dec. Logan Hurley 2-0 (ot). 145 — Kain Rust (PM) pinned Zach Wagner 2:59.

152 — Brett Johnson (PM) maj. dec. Mitch Lehman 11-1. 160 — Noah Warren (PM) pinned Blake Chandler :58. 170 — Christian Warren (PM) pinned Hunter Carr :49. 182 — Rodrigo Diaz (PM) maj. dec. Robbie Helfrich 11-3. 195 — Kurtis Wilderman (MD) dec. Anthony Ruhana 4-2. 220 — Michael Boots (MD) dec. Matt McClosky 6-5. Hwt — Steve Woolbright (PM) pinned Austin Fleck 3:05.

Class 2A

Championship

BELLMONT 46, JIMTOWN 23

106 — Hunter Watts (Jimtown) over DeAundre James 2:21. 113 — Hunter Whitman (Jimtown) over Jon Ruble 2-0. 120 — Mason Mendez (BE) pinned Matt Gimson 11-4. 126 — Jon Becker (BE) pinned Connor Gimson 2:40. 132 — Daniel Gunsett (BE) pinned Greden Kelley :44. 138 — Gavin Siefring (BE) maj. dec. Cole Watson 11-2. 145 — Kenny Kerrn (J) maj. dec. Grant Guitierez 15-1.

152 — Matt Laughlin (BE) pinned Tyler Norment 5:03. 160 — Tony Busse (BE) pinned Dalton Heintzberger :57. 170 — Bryce Baumgartner (BE) pinned Aaron Martinez :46. 182 — Caleb Hankenson (BE) pinned Ben Davis :49. 195 — Jarod Hayes (J) maj. dec. Jarron Gerwig 10-0. 220 — Drew Butler (BE) dec. Caleb Fowler 9-6. Hwt — Nick Mammolenti (J) pinned Braiden Shaw 4:18.

Third Place

YORK TOWN 38, NORTH MONTGOMERY 24

106 — Zachary Todd (Y) dec. Seth Johnson 9-2. 113 — Brayden Curtis (Y) dec. Tucker Moseley 5-2. 120 — Josh Stephenson (Y) dec. Corwyn Hall 9-7. 126 — Christian Hunt (Y) pinned Gavyn Warren 2:58. 132 — Brady Miller (NM) dec. Alex Barr 5-3. 138 — Riley Morehouse (NM) dec. Alara Boyd 5-3 (ot). 145 — Colt Rutter (Y) maj. dec. Cade Groves 11-2.

152 — Cael McCormick (Y) pinned Micah Wray 1:07. 160 — Brad Laughlin (Y) maj. dec. Alec Rossittis 16-5. 170 — 170

Tanner Webster (NM) pinned Jacob Morris 3:53. 182 — Isaac Fruits (NM) pinned Corbin Allen no time reported. 195 — Cole Slavens (NM) pinned Bryce Kidd 1:23. 220 — Kelly Watson (Y) dec. Jarrett Brown 8-2. Hwt —Joey Pier (Y) pinned Kevin Pierce 2:45.

Class 1A

Championship

PRAIRIE HEIGHTS 39, SOUTHMONT 29

106 — Alex Grino (S) pinned Caleb Shaffer 1:25. 113 — Evan Hubble (S) pinned Blake Hoyer 1:01. 120 — Dimetrie Lauy (S) dec. Zeke Rowdon 11-7. 126 — Ryan Rasler (PH) dec. Kyle McManus 4-3. 132 — Boone Welliever (S) pinned Alex Steele :50. 138 — Riley Rasler (PH) dec. Connor Moore 6-4. 145 — Dakota Ball (S) tech. fall Zane Rowdon 19-3.

152 — Doug Levitz (PH) pinned Peyton Long 1:12. 160 — Jed Levtiz (PH) pinned Josh Weir :56. 170 — Brady Johnson (PH) pinned Scott Madison :50. 182 — Joey Blakeley (PH) pinned Zach Worm 1:00. 195 — Bailey Thompson (PH) dec. Austin Williams 8-2. 220 — Mason Cody (S) dec. Codey Shafer 4-3. Hwt — Braxton Amos (PH) pinned Elijah Price :23.

Third Place

MONROVIA 39, ADAMS CENTRAL 27

106 — Brycen Denny (M) dec.Logan Mosse 3-0. 113 — Parker Bates (AC) by forfeit. 120 — Chuck Capps (M) dec. Nick Liter 4-2. 126 — Austin Clark (M) dec. Anthony Mosser 7-4. 132 — Logan Macklin (AC) pinned Jonathon Smallwood 1:46. 138 — Gabe Schwaller (AC) pinned Logan McPeak 3:03. 145 — Ivan Wray (M) pinned Trevor Free 2:59.

152 — Ethan Stock (M) dec. Hunter Bates 2-1. 160 — Elijah Stock (M) dec. Brant Thieme 4-0. 170 — Ryan Ashley (AC) dec. Zach Boles 4-0. 182 — Aaron Cravens (M) pinned Skylar Douglas 2:12. 195 — Garrison Lee (M) pinned Chandler Schumm1:02. 220 — Dristin McCubbins (M) pinned Nash Brunner :19. Hwt — Dylan Schumm (AC) pinned Riley McCubbins 3:34.

A — 2,331 (tournament record).

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