bigmak Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 Rule question, maybe a coach or official can weigh in to educate me. A wrestler at sectional 24 forfeited first round deciding not to wrestle, but then went on to wrestle next round and eventually finish third. I really have no clue what the rules state concerning this circumstance. In my opinion, if a kid does not want to wrestle the first match, and forfeits, than he/she should not be able to wrestle any other matches, but that is just my opinion and if the rules state otherwise than it is what it is. very strange why that would happen...who was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
113poundgrind Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 The update on todays 113 sectonal is Cam Coffman(1) Mickeal Deal(2) Mike Webber(3) Zach Rozzel(4) all moveing on to reginals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MATCAT Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 very strange why that would happen...who was it? This is what I do know. The wrestler in question was ready to wrestle. He and his opponent even chatted about their match during warm ups and both wrestlers were excited to wrestle each other again. They did not fft during morning seeding changes. As the 2 wrestlers were headed out onto the mat the coach pulled his wrestler off the mat and said he would not allow him to wrestle because he did not want him to get injured. He came back to wrestle the rest of the day and did place 3rd. The coach had him fft to the 2nd seed in the first round. I think the question is, should they have allowed him to wrestle the rest of the day? He was obviously not injured because they hadn't even wrestled yet. I would totally understand if he was injured during a match but iced and came back to wrestle an hour later. This was not the case today. He warmed up and was headed out onto the mat when the coach stepped in and would not let him wrestle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MATCAT Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 106 1-Schaefer (SD) over Wilburn (MI) by fall 3-Bunch (CO) over Collyer (RU) 10-2 113 1-Coffman over Deal 6-2 3-Weber (FC) over Roszell (RU) by fall 120 1-Lonneman (MI) over McClurg (UC) 12-2 3-Pace (FC) over Hines (SD) 4-3 126 1-Loos (FC) over Bowers (UC) 9-5 3-O’Farrow (CO) over Boggs (SD) 8-4 132 1-Westerfield (BA) over Orschell (FC) 9-7 (OT) 3-Oyler (LA) over Cannon (CO) by TF (17-1) 138 1-Ruberg (LA) over Humbert (FC) by TF (19-1) 3-Espedilla (SD) over Mitts (EC) 7-4 145 1-Gutapfel (EC) over Oswald (UC) 9-2 3-Lane (SD) over Day (FC) by fall 152 1-Mianning (SD) over Hill (LA) 5-3 3-Day (CO) over Wilgenbusch (EC) 4-1 160 1-Dole (EC) over Nobbe (BA) 12-4 3-Steele (CO) over Raab (SD) 11-4 Do not have the rest, so hopefully someone else will post them. Here is the rest as I remember them. Sorry, I may not have scores 170 1. Gonzales (CO) over Amberger (BA) This was a good match 3. Morales (UC) over Hoffrogge (MI) 182 1. Hittle (RU) over Shirkey (CO) inj. def. Please pray that Shirkey will be okay. He left in tremendous pain. 3. Orschell (FC) over Bugni (SD) I do not remember score or fall, I had my eyes on Shirkey, hoping he would be okay. 195 1. Harnishfeger (FC) over Cavins (MI) by fall 3. Mitts (EC) over Cisco (SD) 220 1. Moore (EC) over Miller (RU) I believe by dec. 3. Arnold (FC) over Anderson (MI) by fall 285 1. Kirk (LA) over minges (UC) 3. Selm (FC) got third by fall. Do not remember who he wrestled. Need a little help here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmak Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 This is what I do know. The wrestler in question was ready to wrestle. He and his opponent even chatted about their match during warm ups and both wrestlers were excited to wrestle each other again. They did not fft during morning seeding changes. As the 2 wrestlers were headed out onto the mat the coach pulled his wrestler off the mat and said he would not allow him to wrestle because he did not want him to get injured. He came back to wrestle the rest of the day and did place 3rd. The coach had him fft to the 2nd seed in the first round. I think the question is, should they have allowed him to wrestle the rest of the day? He was obviously not injured because they hadn't even wrestled yet. I would totally understand if he was injured during a match but iced and came back to wrestle an hour later. This was not the case today. He warmed up and was headed out onto the mat when the coach stepped in and would not let him wrestle. Thats ridiculous! coach isnt doing his wrestler any favors there. so stupid...wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCman Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Here is the rest as I remember them. Sorry, I may not have scores 170 1. Gonzales (CO) over Amberger (BA) This was a good match 3. Morales (UC) over Hoffrogge (MI) 182 1. Hittle (RU) over Shirkey (CO) inj. def. Please pray that Shirkey will be okay. He left in tremendous pain. 3. Orschell (FC) over Bugni (SD) I do not remember score or fall, I had my eyes on Shirkey, hoping he would be okay. 195 1. Harnishfeger (FC) over Cavins (MI) by fall 3. Mitts (EC) over Cisco (SD) 220 1. Moore (EC) over Miller (RU) I believe by dec. 3. Arnold (FC) over Anderson (MI) by fall 285 1. Kirk (LA) over minges (UC) 3. Selm (FC) got third by fall. Do not remember who he wrestled. Need a little help here Aquino lost to Hoffrogge and took 4th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MATCAT Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Aquino lost to Hoffrogge and took 4th. I'm sorry, I didn't realize this. oops. Again, I was watching Colton and Will on the championship match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MATCAT Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Thats ridiculous! coach isnt doing his wrestler any favors there. so stupid...wow The reasoning behind this question is that 4 pts decided team sectional champ. The team that fft'd the first match ended up winning over the team he fft'd too. When this happened in the first round everyone knew why..... for team points..... Just doesn't seem right that a coach would do that for a sectional team win... That's all.... It's teaching kids the wrong way to go about winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmak Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 The reasoning behind this question is that 4 pts decided team sectional champ. The team that fft'd the first match ended up winning over the team he fft'd too. When this happened in the first round everyone knew why..... for team points..... Just doesn't seem right that a coach would do that for a sectional team win... That's all.... It's teaching kids the wrong way to go about winning. fact! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachi123 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 No rule against doing this. Sometimes within a bracket it's easier for advancement that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionsFan Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Selm pinned Hornaday from Rushville in the 3/4 match t heavyweight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesster125 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Thats ridiculous! coach isnt doing his wrestler any favors there. so stupid...wow I'll defend the sectional Champs on this. At the end of the day instead of having 1 or 2 sectional champs... South Dearborn had 14!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnobbe Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 MATCAT and bigmak: It often makes me wonder why people chime in on things that they truly have so little to no information about. The situation at 138 pounds was a coaching decision by a very well respected coach and his staff. First off, this is called an injury default and not a forfeit. Secondly, the rules do explicitly allow this. Third, the wrestler in question has had an injury almost all season and only came into the sectional with ten total matches. Finally, after weigh-ins we made certain to inform the officials, the tournament director, and Coach Deters of the decision so that all would know what was going to take place. Our own wrestler was also aware of the decision prior to the start of the meet. It was a decision made by the SD staff as a decision that was best for the sake of our wrestler, and I will stand by this decision without hesitation. It befuddles me as to how you feel this move resulted in us winning the sectional title. I would love to hear the explanation for this. We gave an injury default to a Franklin County wrestler. This allowed them to score maximum points for that match of 2 advancement points, 3 guaranteed place points, and 2 bonus points for the injury default. How does giving Franklin County an automatic seven points result in South Dearborn doing this for team points? I would like to know how "everyone knew why" we did this? Did they think we did this in an attempt to lose the sectional, or might there truly have been reasoning behind the coaching decision to do this while still offering 7 team points to Franklin County? If the South Dearborn wrestler had wrestled and the Franklin County wrestler had only won by decision or even a major decision, the team score difference at the end of the day would have been either five or six instead of four. Are you starting to understand why your logic in this makes no sense? MATCAT: Unfortunately, what you do know about the situation is almost entirely false. Coaches make decisions every day that are best for their teams. When you state that we did this to win a sectional title, yet we give Franklin County the maximum points, it just does not make sense. Maybe, just maybe, we did do this for the safety of the wrestler and his injury situation. bigmak: "Fact!" Honestly? The fact is that we as a coaching staff do what is best for our team and our wrestlers. We broke no rules and South Dearborn Wrestling does things with integrity. I don't think you will find a coach in that tournament or even any this area of the state (and quite possibly the entire state) who would say that South Dearborn and Coach Gardner do things in an underhanded way. Coach Gardner has headed this program for over a quarter of a century and is well respected among his peers. It is an honor to be on his staff and associated with his program. I do not state my response as a personal attack but rather as explanation to a degree that I am comfortable to share. Every detail does not need to be known or discussed on an open forum. I do wish that both of you would be more concrete in your reasoning instead of making assumptions and conjecture. Thank you for considering my point of view. I hope this will put to rest some of your concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmak Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 I'll defend the sectional Champs on this. At the end of the day instead of having 1 or 2 sectional champs... South Dearborn had 14!! Nobody cares about who won team. It's individual. I just hope the sd kid doesn't get upset knowing his coach had zero confidence in him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesster125 Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Nobody cares about who won team. It's individual. I just hope the sd kid doesn't get upset knowing his coach had zero confidence in him LOL!! Nobody cares about who won team. It's individual....said NO COACH EVER!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmak Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 LOL!! Nobody cares about who won team. It's individual....said NO COACH EVER!! Keep thinking people care. People only talk about what wrestlers won. But good try tho lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 This is what I do know. The wrestler in question was ready to wrestle. He and his opponent even chatted about their match during warm ups and both wrestlers were excited to wrestle each other again. They did not fft during morning seeding changes. As the 2 wrestlers were headed out onto the mat the coach pulled his wrestler off the mat and said he would not allow him to wrestle because he did not want him to get injured. He came back to wrestle the rest of the day and did place 3rd. The coach had him fft to the 2nd seed in the first round. I think the question is, should they have allowed him to wrestle the rest of the day? He was obviously not injured because they hadn't even wrestled yet. I would totally understand if he was injured during a match but iced and came back to wrestle an hour later. This was not the case today. He warmed up and was headed out onto the mat when the coach stepped in and would not let him wrestle. How you say this should make all of the difference in the world....If you say we are forfieting then he should be out for the remainder of the day. Whereas if you say we are injury defaulting that would make him eligible to compete in other matches if he were able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 The reasoning behind this question is that 4 pts decided team sectional champ. The team that fft'd the first match ended up winning over the team he fft'd too. When this happened in the first round everyone knew why..... for team points..... Just doesn't seem right that a coach would do that for a sectional team win... That's all.... It's teaching kids the wrong way to go about winning. If the team that fft'd the first match ended up winning the tournament over the team they fft'd to then this woul dhave had no impact on the team outcome because the team points the wrestler who was fft'd too earned would be no different than if they had wrestled and the guy he fft'd to pinned him. If the team that fft'e would have loast by points then you could argue the coached decision "might have made a difference. Ther would be no strategical advantage gained in this situation other than maybe the coach felt his kid would expend to much energy in the match and that would hamper him in the wrestlebacks. If I had a wrestler who was very ill, or had an injury that might flair up I might choose to set him out of a match that I knew he would not win so as to give him an opportunity in matches he might win....that only makes sense and is most fair to the wrestler and the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 MATCAT and bigmak: It often makes me wonder why people chime in on things that they truly have so little to no information about. The situation at 138 pounds was a coaching decision by a very well respected coach and his staff. First off, this is called an injury default and not a forfeit. Secondly, the rules do explicitly allow this. Third, the wrestler in question has had an injury almost all season and only came into the sectional with ten total matches. Finally, after weigh-ins we made certain to inform the officials, the tournament director, and Coach Deters of the decision so that all would know what was going to take place. Our own wrestler was also aware of the decision prior to the start of the meet. It was a decision made by the SD staff as a decision that was best for the sake of our wrestler, and I will stand by this decision without hesitation. It befuddles me as to how you feel this move resulted in us winning the sectional title. I would love to hear the explanation for this. We gave an injury default to a Franklin County wrestler. This allowed them to score maximum points for that match of 2 advancement points, 3 guaranteed place points, and 2 bonus points for the injury default. How does giving Franklin County an automatic seven points result in South Dearborn doing this for team points? I would like to know how "everyone knew why" we did this? Did they think we did this in an attempt to lose the sectional, or might there truly have been reasoning behind the coaching decision to do this while still offering 7 team points to Franklin County? If the South Dearborn wrestler had wrestled and the Franklin County wrestler had only won by decision or even a major decision, the team score difference at the end of the day would have been either five or six instead of four. Are you starting to understand why your logic in this makes no sense? MATCAT: Unfortunately, what you do know about the situation is almost entirely false. Coaches make decisions every day that are best for their teams. When you state that we did this to win a sectional title, yet we give Franklin County the maximum points, it just does not make sense. Maybe, just maybe, we did do this for the safety of the wrestler and his injury situation. bigmak: "Fact!" Honestly? The fact is that we as a coaching staff do what is best for our team and our wrestlers. We broke no rules and South Dearborn Wrestling does things with integrity. I don't think you will find a coach in that tournament or even any this area of the state (and quite possibly the entire state) who would say that South Dearborn and Coach Gardner do things in an underhanded way. Coach Gardner has headed this program for over a quarter of a century and is well respected among his peers. It is an honor to be on his staff and associated with his program. I do not state my response as a personal attack but rather as explanation to a degree that I am comfortable to share. Every detail does not need to be known or discussed on an open forum. I do wish that both of you would be more concrete in your reasoning instead of making assumptions and conjecture. Thank you for considering my point of view. I hope this will put to rest some of your concerns. Well said. I am sorry I chimed in before I read the end of the thread. As a coach you are responsibe for your team and your wrestlers...not the other teams, and certainly not to the other teams fans. You are right...way too often people make statements and do not have a clue as to the facts or the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapple Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 If the team that fft'd the first match ended up winning the tournament over the team they fft'd to then this woul dhave had no impact on the team outcome because the team points the wrestler who was fft'd too earned would be no different than if they had wrestled and the guy he fft'd to pinned him. If the team that fft'e would have loast by points then you could argue the coached decision "might have made a difference. Ther would be no strategical advantage gained in this situation other than maybe the coach felt his kid would expend to much energy in the match and that would hamper him in the wrestlebacks. If I had a wrestler who was very ill, or had an injury that might flair up I might choose to set him out of a match that I knew he would not win so as to give him an opportunity in matches he might win....that only makes sense and is most fair to the wrestler and the team. After reading all of this, and not being biased towards either team, here is how I look at the situation. Could this have been the reason behind a team championship? Yes. Maybe you did give the other team the maximum points, however, how many points did you get credit for from your wrestler coming back and wrestling to take 3rd place? If you were to take those points away from your team, would you have won? Simply stated, the answer would be, no. So take the points away from your team that your team was awarded for his/her third place finish and then figure team points. Would your team have won? No. Now let's talk about individual wrestlers not a team championship since the IHSAA has made this an individual sport. If your wrestler were injured the entire season, even if he/she were not injured the entire season, you take a chance in every match the possibility of injury. This is wrestling, not checkers. What are you teaching your wrestlers? To take the easiest route in life? To skip out on the hard matches only to go the easiest way? Wrestling is a tough sport, mentally and physically. Were you not worried your wrestler could get injured in the next match or the match after that? There is a very good possibility these two wrestlers could face each other again at regionals. Are you going to inj. def. that match to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmak Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 For the rookies referring to me, if you knew me on here, and my over 1000 posts, you would know "my thing" is to get people talking by stirring the pot. I tend to get rather good discussions going by doing so. Basically, I spoke, now you just need the grain of salt. Can't wait for regionals. Gonna be a great day! Lots of excellent match ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgmotorfan Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Nice job S. Dearborn coaches on keeping the faith for team. Its an ind. sport though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Nice job S. Dearborn coaches on keeping the faith for team. Its an ind. sport though. Well then lets not keep any team scores or give any team awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmak Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 Well then lets not keep any team scores or give any team awards. i been saying that for awhile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachi123 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 What a bunch of back seat drivers!! Great job to south Dearborn and their team. The state tourney is individual, and is about surviving and moving on. If u can advance a wrestler by going thru the conso's then why not? All coaches do the seeding, so now that's unfair too? 3 times I have done this same thing. All 3 times the wrestlers advanced to regional( 1 went to semi state)!! A smart coach can read a bracket a lot better then some of u Monday morning quarterbacks. Those wrestlers( adults now)still tell me how cool it was they were able to advance because of seeding and cross bracket loses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts