ENoblewrestling Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I don't like to get on hear and complain about officiating, but I feel that the end of this match needs to be talked about. I wish to take nothing away from Mr. Neff and his accomplishments on the day, but would like to get others opionions on what took place. I have had several not involved with our program tell me it was the worst call that they had ever seen as there was no possible way to have an escape in that situation. The match ended in a situation were Neff had attemepted a standup, Siddons went to a leg and held it. Neff did step over Siddons leg, and had Neff had a crossface or his arms over Siddons reversal criteria would have been met, but it wasn't the match ended. I have never seen an escape given in a situation like this, it was either a revesal or nothing, and reversal critria was not met, the match essentially ended in a stalemate but for some reason an escape was awarded when Siddons had both arms around Neff's leg. At this point in the tournament points should not just be made up. I have never seen this called an escape. It was either a reversal or nothing, I asked the refs several times about why it was called an escape, one reason was that there was not time to call a stalemate so for some reason it became an escape. The other from the second official, who changed the score after the match was over, was that reversal criteria was nearly met, which it was not, so the escape was given. In my opionion they literally made up a point. Siddons lost the match in overtime but it went there do to a phantom point. Can anyone else give their opinions to what they saw take place at the end of that match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Reversal or nothing. No way you can give an escape there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I've seen this called quite a few times through the years. In my opinion, it's done by weak, indecisive officials. It's 2 or it's 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Sobchak Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I have to laugh... a few years back this same thing happened in a semi-finals match at Conseco. No points were scored and I remember the bloomington south fans/coaches and supports going crazy over no points being awarded. It seems as if the call goes your way it is right, if not it is the "worst call" ever made. I did not see this match, but I will say that almost having a reversal does not equal an escape. A very tough call to be made and most wrestling fans/parents do not understand it. It also takes an experience official to get it right all the time. Am I wrong?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewrestlingdude Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 You not wrong Walter, you just a butthead.... I think the same thing happened in the finals match with a kid from Hobart. Same result no points awarded. Hobart fans were sure it was "loss of control" but once again, I think the official made the right call... if you are close to a reversal you are close to a reversal. If you get an escape, you get an escape.... it always sucks for those officials, half the fans will agree the others will not!!! It must be exhausting!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Sobchak Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 First of all dude I am calmer than you are.... Second of all you are right... the hobart fans were ready to stone that ref with bricks.... (thus their nickname) I believe the finals match you are referring to was McMurray of Portage over Galka of Hobart. A tough call, but I agree the right one. Especially if you were from Portage. Could someone post the video of the Neff match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xam148 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 The way this match went down I just thought the Yorktown assistant coach was the head of the officials as quickly as he got this phantom point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the situation Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I feel bad for siddons man. He made it to state then got it taken away from him. It's sad that officials take that away from a kid because the coach made the call for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyGonzo Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Sometimes officials let the end of the match, or time running out, dictate a call... I've seen several examples of this over the years where there is no position change for about 10 seconds, and then all of the sudden the ref will award a takedown right at the buzzer. I didn't see the match, but it sounds like a similar situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 The match had ended with no points being awarded. The second official changed the rulling on the mat. There is no question as to if Siddons lost the leg, he obviously had it still with his hands cleanched at the forearms. Neff is extremely tall and did wrap Siddons leg, it was not a situation were an escape is possible, it was close to a reversal but criteria was not met, that doesn't make it an escape. I will try to get video up later, it is on wellscountyvoice, mat four near the very end of the video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 http://wellscountyvoice.com/ihsaa-semistate-wrestling-video-mat-p4309-285.htm It's at about the 5:37:50 mark that the sequence in question begins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I just watched the video. That was a terrible call! Siddons never lost the leg, so he never lost control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood2 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Don't kill the messenger, but according to the photo index, a set of pictures in the back of the rule book, that probably was a R2, not loss-of-control. I think the ref may have taken the lesser of two evils by giving E1 and letting the kids decide it in overtime. Atleast, that is what I think he did. It is hard for me to tell exactly what the score was by the video. Once he stepped over and put his knee down on the mat over the leg of the other wrestler it really doesn't matter whether he has that leg or not. I know you may not like the call, but it is very hard to disagree with a picture that is that exact position and is scored R2 by the rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wp_44 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Absolutely terrible call. Siddons came out a bit weaker than i have seen him wrestle throughout the year, but his heart showed thru and wrestled his butt off towards the end. He deserves a state berth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Don't kill the messenger, but according to the photo index, a set of pictures in the back of the rule book, that probably was a R2, not loss-of-control. I think the ref may have taken the lesser of two evils by giving E1 and letting the kids decide it in overtime. Atleast, that is what I think he did. It is hard for me to tell exactly what the score was by the video. Once he stepped over and put his knee down on the mat over the leg of the other wrestler it really doesn't matter whether he has that leg or not. I know you may not like the call, but it is very hard to disagree with a picture that is that exact position and is scored R2 by the rule book. The ref said that a crossface was needed foer the reversal, the picture says a crossface is needed as well. He didn't have a crossface and that is why it was not considered a reversal, it didn't meet the criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 After seeing the video that was two reversal. No way it should be called anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood2 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I will be the first to admit that I have not cracked a rule book since I retired. Somethings have changed for sure. I probably should have checked on the changes before I weighed-in on the topic. Thanks for clarifying. Holy cow, I am taking all kinds of heat for this apology! I am sorry for thinking I was wrong when I wasn't wrong! Stop texting me! & now calling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 After seeing the video that was two reversal. No way it should be called anything else. Even without the crossface? I do not argue that it wasn't close, but I don't think that reversal criteria was met without it. At least we agree it wasn't an escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I would have also dinged Siddons for stalling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I would have also dinged Siddons for stalling. He did get dinged for stalling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 I would have also dinged Siddons for stalling. That would have been two stalling calls in the last 15 seconds. That was the first time that he had dropped to the leg like that during that match. I know we have both seen several matches were a guy continually drops to the leg, the first two stalling calls coming in 15 seconds is a bit much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 It doesn't matter if its his first time or 20th time. He wasn't trying to improve his position when he was in the top position. That is stalling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 It doesn't matter if its his first time or 20th time. He wasn't trying to improve his position when he was in the top position. That is stalling. But the catch there is as soon as he lets go of the lock around the leg, it's virtually a guaranteed an escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood2 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 It doesn't matter if its his first time or 20th time. He wasn't trying to improve his position when he was in the top position. That is stalling. Y2! I have never seen you like this. I like this Y2 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 It doesn't matter if its his first time or 20th time. He wasn't trying to improve his position when he was in the top position. That is stalling. I don't disagree with your idea but you have seen enough wrestling to know that stalls don't get called everytime a guy isn't trying to improve his position on top. He was warned once in the last 15 seconds. Are you saying that evertime a stalemate is called in positions like that it should be a stalling warning instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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