bigdanteague Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 I dont think that college sports are the same as high school in these arguments. In college they recruit atheletes at a certain level. The athelete, and the coach knows what level of kid they are getting. Its a choice. In high school you get what you get. This is why I am for classing the team portion of the tournament. To me its a fairly simple idea, to be the best team you need 14 guys, thus big schools are at an advantage. In the individual you need one individual. Thus no classing, the best man wins. What reality do you live in? The top dawgs recruit themselves to the top programs or vice versi. Ever heard of Blair Academy?, St. Paris, Mishawaka? Them big dogs gotta eat and they often eat kids that from other districts. So be it. High school sports at the top level are more like college than you realize. You want any chance at real success at busco, you better listen to my man mitch and consolidate with Whitko and Columbia City Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted January 14, 2010 Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 I never said I could care less about the future of the sport. In fact, I think that I want t opromote wrestling and furture the developement as much if not more then yourself. I just think we should go about it in a different mannor. I think we should throw more resources towards areas with less developed wrestling schools. I mean all I see is you wanting to help your team. You have already said you would love too have 9 or 10 staters so you are in favor of classing the sport. If your school has 9 or ten staters in a small division is that really any different then Mishawaka having ten in a bigger division. It just developes a new level of dominance. I care for the sport I want to develope teams rather then change the system. If we change the system without developing areas have we really changed anything? I don't believe so. Does Garrett work less hard in the room because there a small school? I really doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdanteague Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Duh...simply Duh! You are sounding as bad as manvswild and that's bad! :-X Got South Newton again tonight coach? Run with the big dogs or get off the porch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scardy94 Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Nope...got practice tonight! ;D Then Hoosier Conference, then Frankfort, then Sectionals. Thanks for askin though. Hopefully I'll see you at the Mville semi-state...oh wait you are on a porch that weekend! :-X Oops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Wow, this thread picked up more steam...and still my questions go unanswered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Thats the answer consolidation. And yes I am aware that some atheletes transfer and go to schools for athletic reasons, but a vast mojority of kids still go to the school districts that they were born and live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phscoach Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 My question though is this. What is your goal that class wrestling will help you develop? You provide arguments that at face value present a fairly solid basis for your feeling that we need class wrestling in Indiana. I am not in agreement, but that is not why I ask the question. I guess I wonder what the motivation is. Several have said (and I would say unfairly) that you support this so you and your program can achieve more accolades/championships/awards. I want to know what your goal is that class wrestling will address. My goal year in and year out is to promote this sport in my local community in the offseason and work with the elementary, junior high, and high school wrestlers to improve their skills and have success in their events. By adding class wrestling, I'm not sure how that helps me. Sure, my athletes will have a better statistical probability of winning a state championship as individuals and teams. But in our 9th year as a program, I also have to worry about things like numbers, funding, facilities, offseason opportunities, and adding quality coaches. If you can tell me how class wrestling helps that, you may convert me. I envision our school being in the bottom 1/3 of enrollment wrestling against 7 schools in our sectional. Of the teams that would be involved, I counted around 15 that would possibly be placed in the same sectional as my school. This year we will fill 10 weight classes. We fill more than 7 of those teams. One of those teams, Evansville Mater Dei, may have a full lineup this year. : I see this as a pretty watered down sectional with at least 2 or 3 classes of kids that will make weight and qualify for regional. Not really wild about that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdanteague Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Yeah but in college its the institutions choice what they want to spend on Athletics, and the level of Athelete that they get. In high school you have no choice. So that is why Trine is not in the same league as Iowa, they choose not to put the same money into it. They also choose to be at the DIII level, which is not a bad thing, it is just their choice. High Schools on the other hand have no say in the number, or level of Athelete that they get. For the most part you get who you have no matter how much you put into athletics. It is not a choice of what level you want to be, but instead what you are given. Its the fact that colleges have a choice in where they are that to me makes the arguments different. Naive statement. And I would bet my next paycheck that Penn's adminstration puts about 10x the money into their wrestling program than busco does. But thats ok, thats why penn will always be better than busco as long as we have a good man like harper running the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Alright, now I am offended. I have posted two quality questions that have been universally igorned. PHS posts one and is responded to immediately? Nothing against phs, and honestly I didn't even read the question or the response yet. Was too busy being offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdanteague Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Nope...got practice tonight! ;D Then Hoosier Conference, then Frankfort, then Sectionals. Thanks for askin though. Hopefully I'll see you at the Mville semi-state...oh wait you are on a porch that weekend! :-X Oops The Penn Kingdom trembles at the thought of seeing the tribe from down south and the throng they will bring into Merrillville. Last one out of monticello....turn out the lights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Yeah and Penn also has a couple thousand more students than Busco does, I have never said that size doesnt make a difference in the team portion of the tournament. I would say trying to compair Penn and Busco is the naive statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Guess I read way too quickly phs coach's question was not answered. Good luck with that by the way, phs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdanteague Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Yeah and Penn also has a couple thousand more students than Busco does, I have never said that size doesnt make a difference in the team portion of the tournament. I would say trying to compair Penn and Busco is the naive statement. You better compare yourself to us brotha! Your not going to ever win a state championship unless you beat a Penn, or Crown Point, or Merrillville or Perry Meridian, etc. You see were not like those sissy sports that have to have communist classes to let everyone win a medal. Step up to the plate, get on the train or get overrun by the juggernaut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdanteague Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Guess I read way too quickly phs coach's question was not answered. Good luck with that by the way, phs. though I answered your question yesterday.....brotha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 And just like I said I think the team portion would be better if it were classed, it takes fourteen kids not just one as it does in the individual portion of the tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted January 14, 2010 Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 No offense to the wierdo who says top high school wrestling is like college, but I am sure that penn also puts in a ton of time. You can throw as much money as you want into new wrestling equipment and wieghts but if you do not have the human resources that allow the kids to use it it won't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdanteague Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 No offense to the wierdo who says top high school wrestling is like college, but I am sure that penn also puts in a ton of time. You can throw as much money as you want into new wrestling equipment and wieghts but if you do not have the human resources that allow the kids to use it it won't matter. Teams like AC and Whitcko would give Penn a pretty descent match and in years past I know that AC would have spanked you right back to the region. So you can take your eletist attitude and stick it where the sun don't shine. region? penn is not in the region. I use penn because thats the team I support and they will soon be a factor on state level. Penn has the human resources in spades. The past is the past, they won't hang as long has harp is coaching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted January 14, 2010 Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 Well I am not hear to promote teams, but I do want to promote wrestling accross the state. I think penn prolly is doing things right, I also think your being a dick and presenting them in an immature nature. Sorry about the name calling but I am sure penn people don't like you putting a target on your backs. Your not a state champion level team yet and you may never get there so have fun at sectionals this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 I just knew Big Dan wasn't a Kingsmen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdanteague Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Well I am not hear to promote teams, but I do want to promote wrestling accross the state. I think penn prolly is doing things right, I also think your being a dick and presenting them in an immature nature. Sorry about the name calling but I am sure penn people don't like you putting a target on your backs. Your not a state champion level team yet and you may never get there so have fun at sectionals this year. I fully acknowledge that Penn is not at Mishawaka's level.....yet. I hope I do put a target on Penn's back for the Jimtowns and Churbuscos and other small schools. Step up or step off. The target was on our back for 20+ years in football before someone in our conference could hit it. I have confidence in the program that they will get it done. Why you are name calling is beyond me....we agree with each other on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted January 14, 2010 Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 Actually no I don't agree with you. Unlike you I think Penn is as beatable as anyone else any given year. If Penn is not ever beatable then I would be on the class wrestling side of things. My arguement is that Penn is doing things right. It doesn't matter how big you are, it matters how you do things. Teams of all sizes can excel. Penn is not unbeatable by any means. Small teams can establish great programs it may take some years but they can have great year in and year out results. Whitcko is a good example of a program heading in the right direction. Adam Central, South Adams, and Garrett are starting to or have had good programs in place for a few years now. In due time they will rise to the top if they keep working they way they have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Yeah but in college its the institutions choice what they want to spend on Athletics, and the level of Athelete that they get. In high school you have no choice. So that is why Trine is not in the same league as Iowa, they choose not to put the same money into it. They also choose to be at the DIII level, which is not a bad thing, it is just their choice. High Schools on the other hand have no say in the number, or level of Athelete that they get. For the most part you get who you have no matter how much you put into athletics. It is not a choice of what level you want to be, but instead what you are given. Its the fact that colleges have a choice in where they are that to me makes the arguments different. Lets put it this way The NCAA classes their sports, they tell Trine that hey since you don't have the resources or don't want to put those resources into your athletics we will let you play Olivet, Manchester, etc instead of Duke, North Carolina, Iowa, etc. They recognize the differences in schools with less resources. And guess what...they even class wrestling. It does not matter whether they want to put those resources into their programs or not. The point is that the NCAA classes their sports based on money rather than students, but its still classing their sports. I bet when you see a DIII All-American you tell him he's not a real All-American because it wasn't DI, right? I know I have many friends that were NAIA and DII All-Americans and National Champions that celebrated all their accomplishments, no matter the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 I never said I could care less about the future of the sport. In fact, I think that I want t opromote wrestling and furture the developement as much if not more then yourself. I just think we should go about it in a different mannor. I think we should throw more resources towards areas with less developed wrestling schools. I mean all I see is you wanting to help your team. You have already said you would love too have 9 or 10 staters so you are in favor of classing the sport. If your school has 9 or ten staters in a small division is that really any different then Mishawaka having ten in a bigger division. It just developes a new level of dominance. I care for the sport I want to develope teams rather then change the system. If we change the system without developing areas have we really changed anything? I don't believe so. Does Garrett work less hard in the room because there a small school? I really doubt it. What resources are you going to throw at the sport in those areas? What magic formula do you or the IHSAA have to make wrestling superior in the SAC again? My team is doing just fine in a one class system, its not about my team, its about the sport that I see dying at the small school level. I have never said I want 9 or 10 kids to state, please quote me on that. If I have ever said anything on here about that it would have been I want 14 kids to state each year. I want all of my wrestlers to experience going to state. What makes you believe that wrestling won't grow in areas if the area has more post season success? I have been told quite a few times that the reason Garrett hasn't had much success is because we don't work hard enough. Go look through the many threads on this topic and you will see it. They are all probably right because we don't get any post season championships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 My question though is this. What is your goal that class wrestling will help you develop? You provide arguments that at face value present a fairly solid basis for your feeling that we need class wrestling in Indiana. I am not in agreement, but that is not why I ask the question. I guess I wonder what the motivation is. Several have said (and I would say unfairly) that you support this so you and your program can achieve more accolades/championships/awards. I want to know what your goal is that class wrestling will address. My goal year in and year out is to promote this sport in my local community in the offseason and work with the elementary, junior high, and high school wrestlers to improve their skills and have success in their events. By adding class wrestling, I'm not sure how that helps me. Sure, my athletes will have a better statistical probability of winning a state championship as individuals and teams. But in our 9th year as a program, I also have to worry about things like numbers, funding, facilities, offseason opportunities, and adding quality coaches. If you can tell me how class wrestling helps that, you may convert me. I envision our school being in the bottom 1/3 of enrollment wrestling against 7 schools in our sectional. Of the teams that would be involved, I counted around 15 that would possibly be placed in the same sectional as my school. This year we will fill 10 weight classes. We fill more than 7 of those teams. One of those teams, Evansville Mater Dei, may have a full lineup this year. : I see this as a pretty watered down sectional with at least 2 or 3 classes of kids that will make weight and qualify for regional. Not really wild about that either. Class wrestling will help develop more kids that are interested in the sport beyond high school. It will also help small school programs that struggle with numbers and even post season success. Having more kids with a taste of success will make more kids come out for the sport. I don't know where you coach, but I will assume your program has yet to have a state qualifier. How would our program be affected if you had a couple kids go to state and maybe a handful in the ticket round each year? Wouldn't that make other kids want to come out for the sport and do the same? I can't tell you how much our middle school and youth programs have grown since we have started to have state qualifiers. As far as sectionals go and that. I would say if we went to a two or three class system there would be three levels instead of four. I have faith that the IHSAA knows how to set up a tournament system, so I would leave that up to them how they do everything from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Actually no I don't agree with you. Unlike you I think Penn is as beatable as anyone else any given year. If Penn is not ever beatable then I would be on the class wrestling side of things. My arguement is that Penn is doing things right. It doesn't matter how big you are, it matters how you do things. Teams of all sizes can excel. Penn is not unbeatable by any means. Small teams can establish great programs it may take some years but they can have great year in and year out results. Whitcko is a good example of a program heading in the right direction. Adam Central, South Adams, and Garrett are starting to or have had good programs in place for a few years now. In due time they will rise to the top if they keep working they way they have been. Sorry, but Whitko has a ways to go to beat the top teams in the state Penn 51, Whitko 9 Mishawaka 58, Whitko 9 That is a wide margin to overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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