Oscar Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Is it possible to cut an opponents air off with a legal headlock? If so then is the head lock actually legal? I am trying to understand the grey areas that seem to surround this issue. I have some ideas but I am looking for some input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 if its a legal head lock and the kid cant breath he should pin himself to end the match.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhayes Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 You may not cut the air or blood flow off at any time. If a legal headlock becomes illegal, it must be stopped immediately. It is usually stopped as potentially dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 It is starting to make sense now. It is not about the arm and head thing. It is about air and blood flow, as it should be. These two components are vital to life. Potentially Dangerous is an understatement. More like life threatening. What many do not recognize is how a wrestler can put himself in a discontorted position to actually cut off air or blood while still having an "Arm and Head" as it has been called. Thank You for clearing that up. You may not cut the air or blood flow off at any time. If a legal headlock becomes illegal, it must be stopped immediately. It is usually stopped as potentially dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVander Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I think that if you have the arm trapped , making it legal, it is not really possible to cut off the blood or air flow, especailly if your objective is to actually pin your opponents shoulders to the mat. I can remeber having a kid in a headlock and having him scream at the ref " I can't breath", the ref's response was "if you can scream, you can breath". My point it that it might feel like you are choking, but it is the pressure on your chest that is causing that feeling, along with the headlock itself. The front headlock is a little bit of a different story, even with the arm trapped in it can be used as a choke. Dave Shultz was very effective at using the front headlock to punish opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyt Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I was just wondering what people thought of these moves and how they are applied. I saw a kid get put in a chicken wing(or some call a bar) this past weekend(maybe this past 20 years), I hear all of these coaches yelling sit thru, arch, squeeze elbows together and I see the kid on bottom, with his neck isolated, his head about to pop off and the top man sitting out, arching and gritting his teeth like he is trying to make the kid want to get pinned. Is that legal? It seems to cut the air off of the bottom man since his head is going one way and his body is going another. I am also concerned that his arms might dislocate. I also witnessed this past weekend at the folkstyle state(or maybe the past 20 years) kids in headlocks, cradles, halves and the coach/parent yelling squeeze, tighten up, lift the head, chin him as to make the kid on bottom want to get pinned. I thought it seemed a bit rough. Some kids were screaming I can't breathe and an official said if you can talk you can breathe. And, this one got me. I saw a kid with legs in and banana split a guy and just rip him apart, gritting his teeth and trying to end his manhood(although they were just little boys so he will make it) . The kid on bottom was screaming. When the period ended the kid on bottom got his revenge and hit the kid in a headlock and the kid arched his back, lifted his head, and tried to pin the other kid by making him want to be pinned. Man, this one got me. I saw a kid put in the legs, arch like a superman, stuff a kids head under(appearing to almost break the kids neck) and rip a kids shoulder until he wanted to get pinned. They took that kid off on a stretcher. All of this really bothered me until I started remembering back to my original days of going to clinics, camps and coaches clinic, Olympic Training center, and listening to all of the top notch wrestlers and coaches years ago and they all seemed to say the same thing. Things like, when you are pinning them, squeeze the life out of them, make them want to be pinned, if they can talk they can breathe, and all of the other things that seemed almost brutal and almost barbaric. I even remembered recently seeing a top college coach from this area put on a clinic and show a pinning combo and say, if he doesn't go, he breaks his arm. Oh I forgot about this one, wow, how about the kid(I saw this from a kid in Northern Inpls around the Carmel area do) that wings a kid over, figure fours the head(with no arm) with his legs(the strongest part of the body) and arch and the kid on bottom is kicking and screaming and the kid on top is just tightening the legs(with no arm) as tight as he can around this kids neck until the kid had to give up. Tough one. So, as I think thru these things I could not help but wonder, where has this sport gone to when the same things Chauncey Mcdaniels was saying 60 years ago are still being said today. I guess I came to the conclusion that its pretty rough and if I ever have the opportunity to tell a kid not to be put in a pinning combo I will because I know the person on top is going to squeeze the life out of him and try to make him want to be pinned. I think It was said best by the gentleman who I think started this post, From Oscar on the North Montgomery winter tournament post "The only opinion that counts in a match is the referee's. Don't be upset when it doesn't go your way. THAT'S PART OF WRESTLING." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyt Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Agreed, thats why when an opponent figure fours the head it should be stopped for potentially dangerous. Two legs around a neck with no arm and squeezing? Refs have the right to stop a potentially dangerous situation and should if they deem necessary. Are you saying its alright to break shoulders but not to choke? Are you saying its alright to slam someone but not to choke? I saw some potential slams at team state even. Point being, refs have the job of stopping something for potentially dangerous. Wrestling is a brutal sport by nature. People get pinned because of comfort level. Dave Shultz was the master of pinning people or maybe I should say he made them want to be pinned. We need to look at more than chokes that have an arm. If thats what people want to call them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Some 1 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 If your runin the old head squeezin move and the other wrestler can't breathe, i believe it is the officials job to watch for this. It should be stopped and give the afflicted wrestler injury time and award four back points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefthanded Headlock Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I think that if you have the arm trapped , making it legal, it is not really possible to cut off the blood or air flow, especailly if your objective is to actually pin your opponents shoulders to the mat. I can remeber having a kid in a headlock and having him scream at the ref " I can't breath", the ref's response was "if you can scream, you can breath". My point it that it might feel like you are choking, but it is the pressure on your chest that is causing that feeling, along with the headlock itself. The front headlock is a little bit of a different story, even with the arm trapped in it can be used as a choke. Dave Shultz was very effective at using the front headlock to punish opponents. google "head and arm choke" or "anaconda choke" and you'll see a couple of jiu-jitsu moves which use a choke with an arm in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 Lefthanded Headlock--- "head and arm choke" I googled up and watched it on video google.com.They gave a fairly technical explanation of how this arm and head lock, which appears to be legal is actually cutting off air and blood to the brain. These are death locks and in MMA these guys know what is going on and will tap out. In folkstyle high school wrestling many kids are clueless. That is why the coaches and especially the referees need to pay close attention. I am going to quote someones "signature" for those of you who think this is OK to allow to continue. "There is no "TAP OUT" in folkstyle .... Fn idiots....." --Awood1. Hope you do not mind Anthony but I totally agree. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6382973279378484547 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old82 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 just ask DJ RACKLEY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombatSpeed Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Anyone who practices BJJ knows there is a "headlock" type manuever (side choke) that can easily cut off blood to the brain while still having an arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 This post was meant for information and awareness only. One of my goals when posting on this open forum is not to single out individuals. As I was made aware of earlier, headlocks have always been a part of wrestling. This means that any reference to an individual is an assumption which is being drawn from hundreds of matches. Just watch the google stream posted earlier. Due to the recent popularity of MMA and the tendency to mesh this "combat sport" with high school folkstyle wrestling, coaches and referees need to raise their level of awareness. That being said, I would appreciate it if personal names were not brought up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 It is spelled Carotid Artery. I looked it up in the medical journal. I may be ignorant but I ain't Stupid. Look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeMom Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Oscar: Thank you for bringing this to our attention. As a spectator, I like to know the rules. As a mom - I like to know what's safe. Especially, when I've got a group of kids over trying to choke each other out for fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Central111 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 So woudlnt that be Ju-Jitsu?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 So woudlnt that be Ju-Jitsu?? OK Quickdraw or is it Bubba Louie(ask some other old fart to explain and don't take it personal) One more time. This is not MMA. Which when meshed(Applied) with high school "Folkstyle" wrestling is extremely dangerous not to mention illegal. AWARENESS for the sake of safety is one point here. "There is no "TAP OUT" in folkstyle.... Don't be a fn idiot. " Again don't take it personal. We can all be idiots at some point in time, but we never expect someone to get hurt or killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Central111 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 You can hit an arm triangle when you have ur opponent in a headlock and it looks nothing like a ju jitsu submission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Oscar, Maybe I am getting soft as I get older, but because of things you have pointed out with the headlock, I am in favor of not allowing pee-wee or bantams to use the headlock, period. I have seen at numerous kids tourneys, "volunteer" refs not even recognizing the illegal headlock without the arm or not above the elbow. I just see a safety issue with out at the lower levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 You can hit an arm triangle when you have ur opponent in a headlock and it looks nothing like a ju jitsu submission Arm triangle choke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_triangle_choke Arm triangle choke (or simply arm triangle) is a generic term describing blood chokeholds in which the opponent is strangled in between his or her own shoulder and the performers arm. This is as opposed to the regular triangle choke, which denotes a chokehold using the legs, albeit with a similar mechanism of strangulation against the opponent's own shoulder. An arm triangle choke where the performer is on the side of the opponent and presses a forearm into opposite side of the neck of the opponent is called a side choke, such as from the kata-gatame hold. This is very helpful. Sorry for being a smart ass earlier. I was being a Quick Draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOX FAN Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Anyone who practices BJJ knows there is a "headlock" type manuever (side choke) that can easily cut off blood to the brain while still having an arm. Did I miss that BJJ clinic? How many high school wrestlers are practicing jiu-jitsu? This is wrestling so... Why are we using illegal jiu-jitsu holds?? [shadow=red,left]"SIDE CHOKE that can ---EASILY--- cut off blood to the brain." I have a problem with that !![/shadow] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 Oscar: Thank you for bringing this to our attention. As a spectator, I like to know the rules. As a mom - I like to know what's safe. Especially, when I've got a group of kids over trying to choke each other out for fun! Ther is more here than meets the eye. This MMA(Mixed Martial Arts) stuff has become popular recently. Kids are watching, imitating and blending. I wasn't even sure what was going on myself until I started asking. Now that I have raised my own level of awareness, I am just trying to make others aware before someone gets seriously hurt. This is not the same as pain threshold chicken wings,arm bars,half nelsons or other legal holds which make an opponent want to get pinned. You have to submit or DIE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
103Cousin Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Anyone who practices BJJ knows there is a "headlock" type manuever (side choke) that can easily cut off blood to the brain while still having an arm. Did I miss that BJJ clinic? How many high school wrestlers are practicing jiu-jitsu? This is wrestling so... Why are we using illegal jiu-jitsu holds?? You'd be quiet surprised on how many high school wrestlers are into a form of martial arts recently. I think if you do a typical headlock it's kind of hard to purposely choke out the person you're wrestling with just because of the position you fall in when trying to pin them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeandBreighton Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Anyone who practices BJJ knows there is a "headlock" type manuever (side choke) that can easily cut off blood to the brain while still having an arm. Did I miss that BJJ clinic? How many high school wrestlers are practicing jiu-jitsu? This is wrestling so... Why are we using illegal jiu-jitsu holds?? You'd be quiet surprised on how many high school wrestlers are into a form of martial arts recently. I think if you do a typical headlock it's kind of hard to purposely choke out the person you're wrestling with just because of the position you fall in when trying to pin them. I have been trying to argue this point for a while now, and it's all falling on def ears. I took ju jitsu for a while and I was amazed at how simple some of the moves are. I can do a one armed choke from the head lock position, and you would never be able to tell until it's to late. But I do not teach any of my wrestlers how to do this. If they want to do MMA, go do it. If you want to wrestle....wrestle. Unfortunatly this is a fallout from the MMA boom, love it or hate it, it is a $ out let for wrestlers who could only make $ coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 My greatest fear is that this is being encouraged and not discouraged for the sake of the win. All it will take is an inexperienced or junior non professional referee to miss this so called harmless "thats part of wrestling" attitude and we will have a tragedy. Lethal choke holds have never been a part of wrestling. It is IHSAA not MMA or WWF. Jeez !!!!!!! Somebody needs to open their eyes and clean out their Deaf Ears. Anyone who practices BJJ knows there is a "headlock" type manuever (side choke) that can easily cut off blood to the brain while still having an arm. Did I miss that BJJ clinic? How many high school wrestlers are practicing jiu-jitsu? This is wrestling so... Why are we using illegal jiu-jitsu holds?? You'd be quiet surprised on how many high school wrestlers are into a form of martial arts recently. I think if you do a typical headlock it's kind of hard to purposely choke out the person you're wrestling with just because of the position you fall in when trying to pin them. I have been trying to argue this point for a while now, and it's all falling on def ears. I took ju jitsu for a while and I was amazed at how simple some of the moves are. I can do a one armed choke from the head lock position, and you would never be able to tell until it's to late. But I do not teach any of my wrestlers how to do this. If they want to do MMA, go do it. If you want to wrestle....wrestle. Unfortunatly this is a fallout from the MMA boom, love it or hate it, it is a $ out let for wrestlers who could only make $ coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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