bharmon01

Why does wrestling have to be more closely aligned to the other sports in Academic All-State? I liked that the coach had to be a IHSWCA member and the wrestler had to be a Regional Qualifier. Being a Regional Qualifier did add more to both academics and athletics. It was said the reason we went to junior Academic All-State was because college coaches said they wanted to see it for recruiting reasons. If thats the case why not make it for State or maybe semi-state qualifiers only? How many of your average Regional Qualifiers go on to wrestle in college Like what was stated earlier if you want it to be fair to more kids then open it up to all High School wrestlers who have a coach who is a member of the IHSWCA. In fact, why penalize the kid who doesn't have a coach who is a IHSWCA member - make it open to all kids who wrestle period Junior or Seniors. Why do they have to be a Sectional wrestler? A lot of kids in other sports never see the field and get Academic All - State - lets more closely aline with other sports in Indiana. Open it up to all kids who wrestle in High School. If we are going to have a a classed team state next year - why not do a class Academic All-State. I hear a lot of arguments for class wrestling, why not class Academic All-State? Class wrestling is supposed to offer more opportunities to wrestle in college, then why not do a Class Academic All - State to give kids more opportunities to get scholarships and wrestle. I think its only fair if you have Class Team State, you should have Class Academic - All-State. We do a Class Team Rankings now without being class - why not do a Class Academic State?

We have all been on the wrong end of a call. If the Referee conferred with the assistant ref and decide there was no takedown then so be it. It takes a lot of courage by the coach to make the call right , even if it hurts his kid. We all have been here. Its a fine line between winning and losing. I think the coach showed a lot of class in this situation. If you win, but won by skirting the rules - is it really a win? Wrestling is a none forgiving sport full of heartbreak and discouraging outcomes. It reflects life like no other. Some times you win, sometimes you lose no matter what the call. I think everyone learns from this event, no matter if its the referees call or your failure to succeed. Its not about the outcome - but the fight to win. live you win - lose you die - by the rules right or wrong its a judgement call

Our thoughts and prayers go out to the Hanover wrestling team and community Bob Harmon and Castle Wrestling Team

how many sectionals only had 3 103 last year? I don't know. Is that a reason to cut the teams (kids) that did? Like I said before - if you don't have a 103 then you can't move someone up, but if you have a kid who weights 189+ you can move him up. Does this mean there are more kids at the upper weights? I don't think so. I think most teams are heavy in the middle weights, the new weight classes hurt them. I want the little kids, middle kids and heavy kids to wrestle. Just don't cut the grass root wrestling kids out. They are the backbone of our sport. The great thing about wrestling was every kid no matter his size had a chance to compete. The new weight classes cut out the majority of our kids. It has always been hard to get the big kid out because of football. Take care of our grass root wrestling kids is all I'm saying. If we need another big kid weight add it, even if we may have to forfeit it. I'm at a small 5A football school and have always had to fight to get the big kid out. If we have to forfeit or move kids up to fill the upper weights so be it, but don't cut the middle weight kid out. If we have to go to 15 weight classes to support the big kids then do it, even if we don't have those kids. Just remember most of our kids who wrestle, and only wrestle fall in the middle weights. The new weights don't favor the majority of kids wrestling in Indiana in my opinion.

was it because there was no wrestler or the wrestler that advanced failed to make weight? I don't know because i don't follow this that well. if there was no wrestler at at all how many times has this happened? Like I said before, i you don't have a 103 you can't move someone up, but you can move a kid under 189, 215 or hwt up. That doesn't mean that there are more kids at 195, 215 or hwt, just that some people didn't have a 103. You can always move up an under weight kid in the upper weights. That's the flaw in the data. How many of these kids we move up are not really big kids? I want the big kids to wrestle, just don't cut out the majority of kids who wrestle and this is the only sport they compete at. There are a lot of good kids wrestling JV this year that could have been wrestling varsity this year that are left out just like 1995. This is my argument. We are hurting the most important kids in the sport of wrestling. If I'm wrong I'm sorry, but after 31 plus years as a coach I think I'm right on this one.

Maligned - We need to get your info to David Cloud and try and get the weight classes back to being in the best interest of high school wrestling. I have no problem with adding an upper weight class, just don't cut the middle weight kids out.

I have noticed the forfeits at 113 this season. I think moving 103 up to 106 has helped more kids that would have wrestled 112 rather than 103 make the pull this season. 106 is easier to pull than 103 for them. I have noticed more seniors at 106 then 103 last year. I don't know how the upper weights at al smith were but it has been weak everywhere we have wrestled this year. There have been a few athletic kids who dominated and a lot of average to below average kids in the upper weight classes. Like most years the upper weight class kids could have wrestled below their weight class but were moved up to fill out a spot. That's what flawed the the study - if you didn't have anyone under 103 you had no one to move up and had to forfeit, but you could move a kid up to 215 or Hwt and not forfeit. Thus, it looks like there are no light weights but the upper weights are full of 189, 215 and Hwt studs - which is far from the truth. If 103 was such a problem , why were there no forfeits at the Regional level? From the years of 98 to 103 I never heard of a forfeit at the Regional level. In fact I never heard of a Sectional that forfeited 98 or 103, maybe a few teams but never every team - there was always a championship match. In my time I have never heard of a kid advancing to Regionals by forfeit. I hope we go back to the old weight classes and maybe if we feel its needed add another upper weight class and go to 15 weight classes. The current weight classes are not good for high school wrestling. Cutting the middle weight class kids out is never going to be good for wrestling. I don't want to cut the big kid out either, but I hate to say it there are many more middle weight kids out there then upper weight kids who wrestle. Rather than take away - just add a bigger weight class if it is needed.

my proposal for 15 new weight classes 105 112 119 125 130 135 140 145 155 165 175 185 195 215 hwt If we want the sport to grow why not add weight classes? Why not give more kids the opportunity to wrestle? Even if some teams may not be able to fill all the weight classes? Too many kids are being cut out in the middle. From every thing I have seen most teams are heavy in the middle weights. Give as many kids as possible the opportunity to wrestle. Small-middle-big. Most middle school weight classes have 16-18 weight classes, why not High school also? Get as many kids wrestling as possible. This would help the sport grow - if that is our goal. We went from 13 to 14 back in 1988 or 89, why not 14 to 15? Just my opinion

Can't believe this thread has not had more hits. From what I have seen through the first half of the season is most kids are in the middle weights. A lot of the Varsity and JV teams in the meets we have been at the middle weights are full of kids and from 190 up are weak. Its just like 1995 when they changed the weights - it hurt wrestling more than it helped. I hope re-evaluate this and make changes that are good for our sport. We have alot of kids 126-145 not getting to wrestle, while only a few kids are 190 - Hwt. When you go to most meets only the #1 or #2 kid at 126-145 are getting to wrestle and on the jv only few 190-hwt kids get matches. There are alot of kids from 126-145 who may or may not wrestle at all if its a dual meet or dual meet tournament. Why go to practice everyday if you don't get to wrestle? I hope we address this as an association and make changes like we did in 1995. The changes in 1995 made no sense and the changes this season make no sense. I fear we are going to lose alot of good kids if a change is not made. In my opinion this is not good for wrestling. Just my opinion. What does everyone else think?

This has not been a problem in our area either. I remember back in 1993 the injury timeout was an issue and the next year we had the rule change that on the 2nd timeout the opposing wrestler got choice. Dave are you serious you want a doctors note for inhalers? I'm still trying to figure out the no tape on headgear rule. How many rules do we need? If we have a rule for documentation for inhalers, whats next? contacts? we have had to stop a match for lost contacts before. How about blindness? - prove it! If someone is going to be unethical then they are going to be unethical. These people will always find a way to cheat the system. You can make a rule and they will find a way around it. I have had kids who use an inhaler and have kids right now who use an inhaler. I would put their work ethic and conditioning up against anyone. Don't tell me they can't wrestle because they have asthma. How big a problem is this really? I think all the headgear coming off because we can't tape it is a bigger issue.

This post ask would you be willing to participate in a team class state tournament - I would expect allot of coaches saying yes is no surprise. I could have come to that conclusion without a poll. The question is how do you run a class Team State without IHSAA support? It would have to be a one event tournament - which means a select few invited. Every team in the State of Indiana would not be able to participate so how could you call this a Team State Tournament? Its an easy question to ask every team would you be in favor of this, but the bigger question is how you do it? Teams are locked into meets by contract, ADs don't want to to try and find new matches and it cost your school money if you break a contract. The only way to run a true Team state tournament is for it to be supported by the IHSAA. I wish all these teams and coaches who came on here and said they supported team state would have said something last year.

I also have been concerned about the IHSAA ending Team State since the first time they hinted at it. We warned our membership and like you stated most coaches didn't care because they felt they had no chance unless it was classed and asked for the IHSWCA to push for wrestlebacks. Here in lies the problem - we should have fought for Team State because without Team State being a IHSAA sanctioned event there is no chance to push for a classed tournament if that is what our coaches wanted. Now it has been discontinued and the IHSAA has washed their hands of it. They said we can do it, but knew it would be impossible without being a IHSAA sanctioned event. The IHSWCA has always fought for what the majority of our polled membership wanted. Wrestling in Indiana today is nothing like it was in the 1970s that I competed in. We have made a lot of major changes in the Individual Tournament and implementing a Team Tournament in 1996. The Team tournament was not perfect but it was what the coaches wanted back then. It was a major victory with the IHSAA. A classed team state back then and even now was not an option with the IHSAA. Don't think the IHSWCA didn't bring up classed team state or even class individual state, because it did. The IHSAA was never going to talk class because wrestling was by their definition an individual sport and no individual sports were going to be classed. We had won the battle for a team dual state, but don't ask for class because wrestling is an individual sport. What everyone fails to understand is if the IHSAA doesn't want class for wrestling, then there is no class for wrestling. If you want to be a sanctioned IHSAA event in wrestling then there is no class until the IHSAA decides they want to support it. Right now they are not ready to go there. Now a lot of people are jumping on here saying they want a Classed Team State - how are we going to do it and still fall within the IHSAA guidelines? They are not going to give the IHSWCA multiple waivers for weigh-ins so it has to be one event. How is one event a team state tournament? classed or not? Everyone jumping on here thinks they are going to be involved in this event, but they are not. It will be by invite, who decides who gets to come? Are the best teams represented? I has to be all in and wrestle down from there to decide a true Team Champion, classed or not. Its not a true Team State Tournament. Who will host these tournaments without being IHSAA sanctioned events? There are a lot of boys and girls basketball games to work around. Where will the officials come for to call all these classed wrstling tournaments? Don't get me wrong, I drove 7 hours round trip to Indianapolis for a lot of years as a Regional rep, Vice President, President and to some of you as a "good old boy" to fight for Indiana wrestling. I'm just trying to stir the pot and get some you young coaches involved. Fight for what our membership wants even if we may lose. The IHSWCA has fought a lot of battles our membership wanted knowing were were going to lose, but we still fought the battle. Last year we didn't fight for Team State because not enough felt it was worth fighting for. Now it is gone and how will we get it back? I wish we would have had this much concern last year, or even 6 years ago when we warned you this was coming.

When I was running this morning I was thinking - why is there now all this concern about a Team State Dual Tournament and last year when we warned everyone the IHSAA was going to end it nobody cared? We talked about it at the Fall clinic and a committee was supposed to be formed to save Team State. There were no pleas for support of Team State or let's have meetings or lets take a poll of coaches that I remember. No coach who said they would be on the committee for saving Team State said or did anything. They never came on here and asked for coaches support or input in this matter. There was never another word about it until we got close to to Team State and the answer was lets get a lot of people there. Now we want support for a Team State because they (IHSWCA) says it will be a classed Team State? I get it - a lot of schools want classed Team State - the problem is the IHSAA doesn't! So we let them take the Team Tournament away without a fight because it didn't benefit me. Now we have coaches wanting to be vocal and support a Classed IHSWCA Team State tournament on here - where were they last year? If we had fought the IHSAA last year we might have won - kept TEAM STATE - now we have lost it and may never get it back. A lot of people don't know how much we fought just to get Team State because that was what our membership wanted. Like I have said before, who knows down the road we may have eventually got classed Team State if that is what our membership wanted. The thing is it takes time to get it. It took a long time to get the changes we achieved in the Individual tournament - it was going to take time to get them to see the positive in changes in the Team tournament. My point is - I see on these other threads these coaches saying they favor this class tournament : Where were they last year? Why not fight for Team State Last Year? It is not a all inclusive tournament - you have to be invited It is not an IHSAA sanctioned tournament It is really no more than another super dual tournament Do you really want to call yourself the Team Dual State Champion if not every school participated? If you want to be the State Champion it needs to be a IHSAA event and we let the IHSAA take that away without a fight If if and buts were candy and nuts everyday would be Christmas! What IF we would have put up a fight last year?

I think alot of coaches care about it and alot of coaches don't care about it. The ones who care have experienced it going deep into the tournament and those who don't haven't or don't think they have a chance to experience it. I understand the ones who don't see any chance, it took us 25 years to beat Mater Dei and get there. It was an unbelievable experience to get to Center Grove. The problem is why not have fought to keep it even if you don't think it benefits your team. Now that its lost we have nothing to build on. The IHSAA was never going to class it until they felt it benefited them. Until they were ready to class all individual sports. Who knows if we had fought to keep it that in 10 years it might have finally been classed for those who wanted it classed. Now we will never know. Some coaches took the stand if I can't get there now then I don't care about it. These things take time. It took forever to get semi-state in the Individual tournament, then advancing more than just the champion, then 16 to State, then a pull through wrestleback at State, Then a modified wrestleback to 5th, 6th,7th and 8th at State. If we would have stayed the course and continued to fight who knows what Team State might have evolved to. Maybe class for those who wanted it. Now we will never know because we let it go because we said "If it doesn't benefit me right now, I don't care" We need to fight for what is best for Indiana wrestling, not what is best for my team. That's what upsets me the most, we didn't even put up a fight, even if we were going to lose anyway. Keep fighting even if we might lose. That's what The IHSAA used against us. If we wanted wrestlebacks at Regional and Semi-State keep fighting for it even if the Executive Committee would vote us down, if we wanted class team state keep fighting for it even if the Executive Committee would vote us down. Instead we changed each proposal year and the IHSAA used it against us saying "these wrestling coaches don' know what they want" Wrestlers are fighters - lets decide what we want and keep fighting until we get what is best for Indiana wrestling even if we know the IHSAA will vote us down. Keep going back and fighting until eventually we beat them down. We need to poll our membership, find out what the majority wants and fight until the end. That's the problem we didn't even fight - we just rolled over and got pinned by the IHSAA.

Here is the problem the IHSAA said we (IHSWCA) could sponsor a Team State Tournament ( after they ended their support of team state) and they would give a waiver to do it. The waiver for competitions would only be for one event. How do you do a true team tournament in one event? To be a true team state tournament (all in, single or classed) would call for multiple events. The IHSAA would never give the IHSWCA this. The IHSAA knew this and knew it would be impossible to achieve without being a IHSAA sanctioned event. They knew we were spilt on single and classed and it would fail. We jumped on it hook line and sinker and didn't even put up a fight. The last times they hinted at ending Team State we had emergency meetings and put up a fight. This time we just took it. The IHSAA's wanting to end the Team Dual tournament was nothing new. They brought it up everytime we met with them and at our proposal meetings. They said give it up and we will give you wrestlebacks at regional and semi-state and go back to old format. We countered by saying why give up something we already have? Lets try and improve it so the IHSAA would support it. That is why the runner-up at Sectional advancing to team regional was eliminated to try and stop holding kids out at the regional which they felt hurt the integrity of the tournament. The IHSAA felt if only the Sectional Champions advance teams would wrestle their full squads. It didn't happen and it gave them more ammunition to use with the Principals on the Executive Committee. I agree we need to poll our membership and find out what they want. The only time we had almost 100% response was doing it at the Sectional Seeding meeting where all Head Coaches would be present. I think we need to do that again this year. The only way for it to work is if it is a IHSAA sanctioned event. The problem is we have lost it without a fight. How do we get it back? It took years to get what we had and it was lost without even putting up a fight. To be honest what does it mean to win a IHSWCA State Championship if it is not recognized by the IHSAA? We should have called for emergency meetings last year like we had done in the past and at least put up a fight. Now we just continue to fight amongst ourselves like the IHSAA knew we would and get no where while losing Team State. The IHSAA won and we lost.

I still don't think its any ones business. They didn't wrestle period. To ask the question is to ask why.

Here is the problem, most coaches, I think, like a team dual state champion. Most I believe want it classed. The IHSAA will not support a classed dual tournament, let alone a single dual tournament. The only way to have a Dual State Champion is to have all in format, not invite. The IHSWCA can't figure out how to do that single or classed to make everybody happy. The only way to do it right is for it to be an IHSAA event. Then the Principals and ADs would have to support it as a IHSAA member school. Thats what hurts us by losing the dual tournament in its current state. It took a long time to get 4 levels to the Individual tournament, then advancing more at each level, then some form of wrestlebacks. If we could have kept the Team Tournament it may have eventually evolved to a class tournament - when the IHSAA was ready. Now we will never know. Once its lost, I think its lost for ever. (I hope I'm wrong) The IHSAA will never support a classed team tournament until it is ready to class all individual sports. They told us back in 1995 that the individual tournament would stay the same - keep team score and have a champion when we started the team dual tournament. In 1996 they said only one champion and team dual is what the coaches wanted and no more scoring at individual state. We have to find a way to get the IHSAA to buy into a Individual Team Champion and Dual Team Champion and not compare us to other sports. We have to get other individual sports to propose class if we ever want to try and have a classed team tournament - if that is what our coaches want. The IHSAA will always refer to wrestling as an individual sport. So until other individual sports are classed, wrestling will remain a single class. If the majority of our coaches want class then that is what we should go after and fight for it. For me I like the Individual Tournament like it is with the only change wrestlebacks. If the majority want class in a Team Dual Tournament, I support that as a member of the IHSWCA and will help fight for it.

It's nobodys business except the kids, their parents and their coaches

Rex- This looks good. This could be a tool to help get Team State back someday if it grows, builds a fan base and most importantly to the IHSAA makes a profit. If it showed how much interest it would generate being a classed event that may also help the class argument. It's a great start to something that could become a major media event for Indiana wrestling.

headlock83 - try 6 and a half hours to evansville from the region

Congrats and Good Luck Tim, I know you wanted to coach. The down side is we need more young officials and losing you there hurts.

The IHSAA just doesn't get it - If a kid wrestles as a wildcard it cost him 2 points not the rest of his team that didn't even compete. He would just have to sit out another tournament or super dual on his team's schedule. That is just how easy it is to make the decision, but their argument would be if wrestling did it every individual sport would want to do it. They would also say " you guys want a team tournament, but now you want individual wildcard and not cost the team weigh-ins - you guys don't know what you want. " The IHSAA will always come up with an answer that works for them. They will give you one example to prove a point and turn around and give just the opposite example to prove your argument of the first example wrong. They are very good at telling you what you want to hear and making you think they understand and agree with you. Then they do what they want. They will not do anything until they are ready to do it. They know they hold the power. By the way - I don't see anything on here about the Team Tournament and what we plan to do about it. I guess the IHSAA was right - we would just sit back and take it. They said they would not support it but the association could take it over knowing that it would be difficult to continue it and eventually the talk to save it would fade away. It was a hot topic when word came that this would be the last year for it, but not much about it lately. Where do we stand as an association on this issue now?

I attended the first ever Top of the World wrestling camp - there was no roof over the mats, the showers didn't work right, the eggs were green and we went swimming in a pond. It was the best wrestling camp I ever attended! Learned alot of good hardnosed wrestling at that camp. He also came to our school at the begining of the season and did a clinic each year when I was at North Central. This is a big loss for wrestling I hope they catch that hit and run driver.

To be honest I haven't read everything on here, but I read something about kids not cutting 20 pounds but they may cut 16 to make 106 versus 103. My first thought was - are they following the weight loss program? In my day 20 pound loss was the norm, they issued us "plastics" the first day of practice - my senior year I cut from 120 to 98. Changing weight classes will not stop cutting weight. The question is -"Is this in the best interest of the sport?" Like someone pointed out you can't move a kid up to wrestle 103, but you can move kids up to wrestle in the upper weights. How many of the 189, 215 and hwt kids could have wrestled at a lower weight but moved up to fill out the weight classes? This is where I think the study is flawed. It makes it look like we have more big kids than is really true. I hate losing the little guy and the kid in the middle - If its that big a deal lets just add another weight at the top and not cut out the little or middle weight kid. I have had to forfeit the lower weights before and have kids move up to fill out the top. If we are really all about the sport then who cares if we may have to forfeit a weight class and lose a meet? Before you say anything Castle has forfeited 103 and 112 in the past and had underweight kids wrestle at the top. Give all kids little and big a chance to experience the GREATEST SPORT OF ALL. The bottom line this is what we have been dealt with for next year so we will have to suck it up and deal with it. Some like it, some don't - the question is "is this good for our sport?" I don't think so, but that is just my opinion. If we don't like it then we need to fight for change just like 1995. Another question is how is this going to effect uniforms and warm-ups? Do we need to order bigger singlets if we are lucky enough to get these big kids out? Do we need new warm-ups if you put the old weight classes on our warm-ups?

I think Rex hit the nail on the head. Our new President asked me last Friday at the Spring Clinic what I thought about this. My answer was almost the same as Rex after having delt with the IHSAA as an IHSWCA officer. I said they gave it to us to make us feel better, like they were really doing something for us. The bottom line is they wanted it gone (Blake and Bobby) and think the IHSWCA will fail in trying to run it. Who is going to run it? What venues? Officials? Table workers? Set up and tear down? Already we can't agree on it - if its not class some people will be mad, if its not all in some people will be mad, if its invite some people will be mad. The IHSAA said they would grant a waiver like the Basketball Hall of Fame. I don't think they will give multiple weigh-in, multiple dat waivers. Why are they willing to let us do this, but told us not to give out trophies this year for the Individual tournament? I don't trust them. Why is it now ok to have 2 champions now? That was an argument against giving a trophy for individual state because Blake said there was only 1 state champion. I'll answer it - because they think it will fail and just fade away. I hope the IHSWCA can prove them wrong.