Wrestling Bill Walton

2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Many states have tried some sort of champions tournament and they all have failed. It would be the same thing as us running state back two weeks later and asking everyone to "prove it" with their title runs. I would guess there are around 100 wrestlers who would love a redo on their state finals and to improve their placement or get revenge for a loss they took.

 

If a kid wants to prove he's the best in a classed state he will prove it at events during the season such as Al Smith, Mooresville, and others, prove it at ISWA events, or go out and place high at national events. 

 

Why aren't we having Rochester, Delta, and Floyd Central wrestle Crown Point after team state? Do we want to crown them champions, but then the next week say... "well you aren't really the champion?" How asinine is that?

Well you do make some good points.

On 2/26/2024 at 10:13 AM, 3xStateChamp said:

Click…. Spin… Click … Spin … Click 

 
 

 

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Pistol Back ! 
 

Furst off…. Witch one of youins varmints changed Pistols log ins .

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Pistol bout to send you’ins 6 Slugs for tamperins wit Pistols mail …Spit ! ? It’s a Gawd Damn Federal Crime messin wit Pistols mails … Spit !  now Pistol gotta hav western unions mails to log ins . Wus it’s dat Y2 yella belly CJ’s ins da nam, fire ants lovin,  cabbage stew havin , cactus eatin, Wyoming lovin, Fake cowboys, no good varmint …Spit ! 

 

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Witch one of youins varmints tagged Pistols to handle youins personils beefs… Spit ? Pistol alread in sum HOF in Stillwater for killin deez fake Pistol Pete mascots ans Pistol does its one ways … spit ! 

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C-Ya around Varmints ! 
 

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Killd or b Killd Fake Mascots 

 

Pistol Pete 

 

 

 

 

 

This topic is also  as fun as watching my best friends, the "Grateful Dead" while smoking some "Blue Dream".  I love it as much as NBA Groupie girls,  while sharing some edible "Gelato'.     So like l  always say: " You cant win championships by being normal, by just being average".   So "wrestling bill Walton, who  loves wrestling, but  was too tall:  dictates, salutes and exhortingly publishes his vote to the "poster with the moster", the :King of social media",  the  "meme-master" ,  the royal humongus of Indianamat.    The anti-average, most unnormal dude on in the Gorilla kingdom,  get's Wrestling Bill Walton's heavily weighted hyper influenced vote.   The envelope says  "Team Garcia".

Note this vote wasnt influenced by one iota from me attending multiple post concert  "Grateful Dead" parties, with my bestie and Team Garcia's great uncle Jerry Garcia, the greatest musician of all time.  I got some stories for you dudes, like the time I took Magic Johnson to the Hollywood Bowl.  But i digress.

1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

As for Ohio, their state series is so late, still two weeks away it is not during the NCAA basketball season! Not sure on the other states, just know Ohio started their state series this past weekend.

Thats a good point.    The Ohio  wrestling finals are always occur during the weekend of the Big 10 basketball tournament.   And if Ohio State or Columbus hosted the Big 10 baskeball, they would have it at Nationwide arena, not the Schott.   Which also brings a good point,  you cant get a hotel that weekend in Columbus anyway.  Because Columbus is crazy heck as the wrestling state tournament always coincides with the Arnold Classic.   If you want to see good wrestling,  and also see gigantic muscular  heads and  bodybuilding girls with biceps bigger thicker than your legs, then hit Columbus.  Me and my buddy Arnold always hang out that weekend and smoke of few fat ones.

7 hours ago, SWINfan said:

I'm not a referee and can't speak to the exact application of the rule in this instance, but I can say I have seen it called the way SIACfan described and just because hands break doesn't make it an automatic escape.  There is something called reaction time and how it is applied in HS I'm not exactly sure.  I think Reformed Poster's example also applies.  Whether it's in a scramble or intentional, the escape isn't awarded instantaneously.  I see holds broken all the time in scrambles and control regained almost immediately.  In my mind, if Vanover reached out and had a leg, preventing a reversal, then that would fit.  But I can't see that part on the video.

I can't say for sure whether the call was correct or not, or whether the referees handled things wrong.  But the fact that there is still an ongoing argument reinforces my statement that it isn't as clear cut as some make it out to be.  Maybe it is to them, but that doesn't make it universal that everyone should see it the same - hence not clear.

 

1.  Its clear Vanover lost the leg and with Mills having a bodylock shows loss of control.   And subsequently for a couple seconds he doesn't have the leg thus your reaction time argument is null.

2. You see a ref not award an escape in similar situations as mentioned by Reformed Poster, because the top wrestler maintains control of the leg.  Clearly didnt happen hear.

3. The ref even thought it was an escape and clearly awarded it.  See pic or video.   In the audio, the  ref argues the ending situation was not a takedown.  Thus he considered the situation to be a neutral position with escape awarded.

4.  Part of the controversy was this a reversal or not.  Any good ref will give this an escape.  The reversal is dicey as Mills met control criteria with Merkel at buzzer but not reacton time for Vanover to react makes that a tough call.

5.  The real controversy is the ref gave escape.  Then EMD table help saw the escape sign and chose not to put it up, who subsequesently cheered they didnt have  to score point because the ref got confused.  This was after the table worker called the refs call ***potty mouth***.

1 minute ago, HornetSloan said:

Nobody sign up for Masters B 88kg. I'm trying to get that looooooooooong overdue state title!

You can always count on  beating forfeit and bye.

6 minutes ago, XCard said:

I always know what time of the year it is when I start to see the word "crowdedness" thrown around. 

You are right.  "Crowdedness"  used to be associated  with the Merrillville semi-state.  Now its Maligned sectional and regional rankings.

1. This situation in the Vanover match brings up a good question to the IHSAA.  Should the IHSAA pay its table workers at big events  instead of relying on  local  homer volunteers?  Its apparent that we just found a new way how table help can affect a match as it did in this case.   Again if you havent followed, the two EMD knuckleheads working the table started cheering on the  Flowreslting sttream after they convinced each other the ref didnt put up an escape.  With the ref confused,  its apparent how their monologue had a big affect on the match.   Also these dudes were heard on the Flocast calling the refs calls ***potty mouth*** when it went against EMD.   Dudes were also yelling and screaming when the calls got overturned in EMD favor.   Maybe the IHSAA should stop pocketing all the money and pay a little to some workers to create a more unbiased enviroment.

1 hour ago, rrschott said:

I hate to say it, but at that point it's on the coaches to make sure everything is scored correctly.  review the sequence in Track, make sure their wrestler is credited with the escape, and make the ref explain why it's not going to OT.  That's the coaches' obligation to their wrestler, and there are certainly ways to raise those issues in a respectful manner while still advocating for your guy, especially with that much on the line.

The OV coaches argued the correct point.  They had a right to ask why the awarded escape was taken away.    The ref got confused to what position they were in and forgot he awarded an escape.   He just discounted the OV coaches  request and walked away.   The asst referee could have helped her also, but he let the referee sink.    EMD got out of town right away.    You could go to the head referee, but you cant look at video.  It looked liked a guy came in front of the table in street clothes, was he the ref admininstrator?   He saw it too and could of helped get the score right.   The thing that bothered me was how fast the ref changed his decision from coach Schaefer's argument.  It was immediately then he just blew off the OV coaches.  

5 minutes ago, Silence Dogood said:

 

 

How about Disneyworld? 

good point.  Lets think outside the box (of Indiana Borders)

Yea lets get creative,  How about the YUM center in Louisville.   Great facility, and i bet we could draw in a few KY fans.

30 minutes ago, Silence Dogood said:

Just rewatched on Flo and this captured most of it. But the audio is important too. Ref gets confused as he is talking to the table help to clarify whether an escape was awarded - he said there was no takedown. Seems like he forgot that it was a reversal/escape scenario. 

 

Also sounded like the table help missed the 1 pt escape that that the ref signaled.  

30 minutes ago, Silence Dogood said:

Just rewatched on Flo and this captured most of it. But the audio is important too. Ref gets confused as he is talking to the table help to clarify whether an escape was awarded - he said there was no takedown. Seems like he forgot that it was a reversal/escape scenario. 

 

Also sounded like the table help missed the 1 pt escape that that the ref signaled.  

Audio is pretty good,  the ref clearly indicates  an escape in his signal.  The table is looking for clarification, and he goes back to table to indicate no takedown.  Which clearly designates an escape was earned.   The table help obviously was from EMD complaining and cussing on the call, then they cheered when Vanover won.     You can see one table guy talk the other guy out of the escape.  Then the ref comes to the table confused about no points scored, probably thinking he had already called an escape.     EMD should give an assist to these guys for the win.

6 minutes ago, IU89 said:

Coach Schaefer has never yelled and screamed or intimidated a ref in his life. You’re a liar and a moron. Making up stories to fit your narrative. You have zero credibility and should be ashamed. 

Just making my call from what i saw on the video.  Video doesn't lie.   Ref minimally should have hit him for misconduct.  Sorry to get your panties in a ruffle.   With all due respect, I didnt mean to offend your sensitivities.

7 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

This is the most interesting part of this whole discussion. In that picture, the clock clearly shows Period 3 with 0:00 and the official is clearly showing 1 for green. Yet the score is showing 2-3 in favor of green.

 

Did the discussion between coach Schaefer & the official happen before or after this moment?

 

Had the official awarded the 2 for reversal earlier & is now already wiping that away & giving 1 for escape instead? Before the discussion with coach Schaefer?

 

Did coach Schaefer convince him neither were achieved? Or did he only argue the reversal?

 

I was in the Ford Center but was watching another match at this time. I looked over & saw the result only after all this was over.

Since ive know for my play by play:  Here's my call.

Vanover riding Mills with 6 seconds left and 2 to 1 lead. Mills stands up, cuts in with left hand and step gets brief separation.  Could have been an escape.  Millls attacks immediately, Vanover falls to knees with hands on mat meeting loss of control.   Mills facing Vanover has body lock around waist, then with 3 seconds.  Mills spins to right. With 2 secs,   he inserts left leg into Merkel position,  with left arm behind armpit.  Simultaneously  at buzzer, Mills right arm inserted behind right armpit meeting technical definition of control for rev or takedown.  Ref thows up two reversal as at same time EMD coach Schaefer runs to the table yelling. 

Ref walks to table with EMD coach Schaefer while admantly complaining.  After brief 2 second  talk,  official talks to asst official. Asst official says one sentence, then head ref indicates no control sign effectively cancelling reversal.   Then ref  heads to center of mat, raises left hand with 1 red escape, and realizes wrong wrestler and corrects to one green  point escape to Vanover.  Table never records the point.  Coach Shchaefer yells something in disagreement from corner.  Scoreboard still says 3-2 at that point, immediately score changes to to 2-1.  Asst ref says something to table and indicates the no control ref symbol.   Kids look like they're ready to wrestle OT.  Ref goes to Owen Valley corner and explains call.  Score shows 2-1.  Ref locks back to circle,  kids take leg bands off.  Then ref walks to table, spends 5 seconds at table.  Camera is blocked but looks like he does call of mechanic.  Schaeffer approaches table arguing, and ref waives hand to tell him to back off.  

Ref walks back to circle and raises Vanovers hand.    Owen Valley coaches go to table with ref, and calmly but adamantly argue.  You could see the head coach has the index finger pointing indicating he wants the one point escape.   Ref disregards argument and walks away.  End of match.

Just now, Y2CJ41 said:

  

 

Dammit,  I thought i could get away with stealing Joe's idea without him noticing.  Never going to beat Joe.

I got a good relationship with Jim Irsay,  Ill go down and see if he could let the wrestling community borrow Lucas Oil for those two days.   Plenty of seating.   I think he likes wrestling.  Ill just give him  a big compliment on his Rock and Roll collection and were in. 

So watched the video on Flo.    The reversal is a tough judgement call as he secures Merkel at the buzzer.

1 The ref melted like butter when EMD coach went to the table, who was at table one second after buzzer.

2.  After he cancelled his 2 point reversal,  the ref put up a point escape.  Which is obviously the correct call as referenced by HWTDAD pic where it shows loss of control.    See pic below where after the reversal was cancelled, the ref clearly gives the one point escape signal.   Looks like it just gets ignored.    Its not clear, but in the confusion he just gave up on that very relevant one point escape.   

3.  EMD coach was aggressive and screaming and yelling and intimidated the ref.   Owen Valley coaches were cool and calm showing sportsmanship under an emotional situation.  Obviously they didnt get rewarded for that.   EMD coach got awarded.

1 hour ago, SWINfan said:

This was discussed in the matches thread from that day.  While I can't tell you for sure from the angle the camera provided, I can say it's not as clear cut as you state.  At one point, for a split second there appears to be separation, but that in itself is not an escape.  I can't tell you if it was the correct call or not with the angle the video provides, but I can say it's not as simple as you make it out to be.  If Vanover, as the period ended has a leg, then the call was correct.  There were a few ifs in this scenario, and I don't want to use the wrong words and make it worse.  But I've seen such a situation happen before with the same call.  Sadly, for Mills, 2-3 more seconds would have likely been enough to finish the move get the points.  

 

I think this is where I disagree with your point is that you have the wrestler has to have separation.  Lets even forget about the temp separation mentioned which clearly would have been an escape.   If you look in the picture, Mills starts in the defensive position and puts himself in an advantage situation and definitely  establishes loss of control by Vanover.  Note that Vanover has no contact or grasp of Mills legs which is clear loss of seperation.  Per the rulebook, an escape is loss of control by offensive wrestler with both wrestlers having at least two supporting points in bounds.  The ref correctly didnt make the escape call at that point to let action continue to see if a reversal occurs.    But the escape should be earned.  So what probably happened Mills tries to get around for the reversal, and Mills grabs his leg to defend.   He almost gets the reversal at the buzzer, then the ref doesnt give credit of escape for the lost control because he still has his leg.   The ref should have called the escape if he felt a mills didnt gain control in regulation no matter if Vanover had a leg or not.  But with that said,  Ive seen officials make this mistake before and this is a good learning moment.  But its a sad time for a mistake like that to cost a kid a shot at state.

8 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

Agree with consistency  of stalling. We have Mishawaka area officials come in for our Conference tourney and it is SO different than the rest of the year. 

 

One big area I tried to improve when I took over at HSE 5 years ago was ensuring we wrestled aggressively so I track stalling every year to see what positions we're getting hit in and what the context is (a stalling in the first/second period is very different than one when you're up by 5 and just icing the match in an individual tourney especially).

 

This past 2 years data with the Mishawaka officials at Conference are telling:

 

2021-22 Data:

Top Position Stalls: 7 (5 at conference by one official, 2 for not returning the guy quickly enough)

Bottom Position Stalls: 10 (6 at conference, the other 4 by one kid who legit stalls on bottom)

Neutral Stalling (including double stalls (only 1 of those): 12 (6 at conference, 3 at semistate (all by same official))

 

2022-23 Data:

Top Position Stalls: 6 (5 at conference, 3 by same official, the other was this past weekend by not returning to mat in 3rd place bout)

Bottom Position Stalls: 6 (4 at conference, 1 at Regionals)

Neutral Stalls: 8 (5 at conference, 3 others when we were icing matches)

 

My kids sometimes get out of position, but one of our strategies has been to have the deepest gas tank, keep scoring points, and stay on the gas even when winning. All this to say that most officials recognize this and we don't get hit with a lot of stalling as a program because of it. EXCEPT during one tourney where the officials come from a different part of the state. I'm not complaining about those officials, they do a great job, they just see it differently and call it differently. It's good for our guys to be exposed to that so they're not shocked by it in the state series.

 

As you stated, don't care which way we do it, but clearly there is a difference in how it is being interpreted and that needs to be streamlined so that we can coach it correctly for our kids.

 

 

 

 

Coach Brobst,  you bring up some good points on stalling and consistency.  I like you're data perspective of tracking stalling calls.   It brings up  a novel idea.  What if we had a statistic based on stalling calls per match.   Maybe Track wrestling could add this statistic, then we could track this data by tournament, region, season  and even by official.   Maybe we could evaluate officials better and get more consistency in the most inconsistent call in Inidiana wrestling.   I know it would be difficult, but seems possible to me.

25 minutes ago, rrschott said:

I got that.  What I was saying was that in a lot of cases, a bad rating for a good call that a team didn't like would be cancelled out by the rating from the other team that saw it was actually the right call.  Your example went on to state the other team might not provide that high rating because the call was actually questionable...

I'm all for improving things, especially if it makes for more consistency.  One area in particular is how different refs from different areas call stalling.  That seems to lead to a ton of frustration, both for the wrestlers and parents.  You go up north, stalling is called really quick; down south almost not at all (I don't think I saw a single point awarded for stalling in the EVSS).  Then you get downtown and it's not consistent from match to match.  (and to be clear, I don't care which way you go with it, I'd just like to see it consistent so the kids can adapt).

Stalling is always an enigma.  In my years of officiating, I'm always surprised how some coaches react to stalling even when its a warning and no points are awarded.   It drives some coaches nuts.  And i agree its partially due to the inconsistency of refs calling it.  I suppose the stalling calls equalize to the area of the state, based on the coaches reactions and consistency of officials and maybe emphasis put on in the associations meetings.   Ive hesitated before on calling stalling,  based on reactions of coaches.   Its kind of like a strike zone in baseball.   

32 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

Yes, that was the premise of my original point. Even the best officials make bad calls. And if one happens in a critical moment, you can end up with an excellent official getting a bad rating from a particular school for years over one bad call.

 

 

To be clear, I wasn't necessarily insinuating a peer based rating system, but rather more of an administrative based one. One where a certain group of experienced officials (i.e. Director of Officials) are responsible for rating the officials in their local association. I'm not sure that this is feasible, but you'd be more likely to get the best officials advancing through the post season from a system of this kind verses the current system where the officials are being rated by (in many cases) people who have never worked as an official in any sport at any level.

College wrestling rates their officials based on an evaluator that travels to meets.   I used to live and ref in Missouri, and they paid some experienced officials to go around and evaluate the officials.  It could be done, but some one will have to find a way to fund the evaluators as there time wouldnt be free.

On 1/24/2023 at 6:43 PM, Clint Gard said:

It’s not a rule. It’s an interpretation by RF and it is wrong.  The Winter Bulletin says nothing about it which the other question I posed to him.  Why wasn’t it in the WB if that is the way we are supposed to do it?  Never got an answer.  I believe every sectional should go by the WB and be done with it.  If there is a “rule” to be followed then it’s in the WB.

Clint,  I agree in the spirit of the rule, this is not a good interpretation.   But I respectfully disagree, that in a technical sense, its a correct interpretation of the IHSAA seeeding Critieria/rules by Faulkens and has precedence going back at least 6 years and is based on the  (http://www.ihsaa.net/seedingmeetingtutorial/story.html).  Its clearly expressed in seeding meeting tutorial.   Note this issue has been discussed in multiple years on Indianamat, and and a robust discussion in 2017 on the controversial interpretation and i believe that was the year Robert Faulkens showed up at the Lafayette Jeff sectional to enforce his technical interpretation.   From an application sense,  most sectionals have historically ignored this rule albeit intentionally or sometimes due to ignorance of the criteria.   Maybe you're right, if the criteria was not included in the winter bulletin, then that might supersede prior precedence.    Did the WB include any seeding criteria/rules this year? 

2 hours ago, a_fleenor171 said:

If you go look at 2020 Elwood Sectional, Robert Faulkens made us seed the whole sectional this way. I was coaching at Guerin Catholic at the time and our 145 Jeff Dunasky was 28-2 with losses to Viduya and bumped up and lost to Kervin, both state champs that year. Had also teched the 1 seed the week before in 1st period, but was made the 2 seed because he didn't have as many head to heads. The craziest seeding meeting I've seen. https://www.trackwrestling.com/predefinedtournaments/MainFrame.jsp?newSession=false&TIM=1674586934175&pageName=&twSessionId=ubusvatgld

Robert Faulkens also showed up at the Lafayette Jeff sectional in 2016 and enforced the seeding meeting to the rule.  It created a few weird seeds.    But yes this rule has been in affect for years. 

Ive never seen a guy named forfeit win a match,  but I knew this guy named Stan Bye.  He won all the time.   I saw him win some matches after some guys saw his name on the bracket,  they were so initimidated they never showed up for the match he just advanced to the next round.

IVe never seen better bomb bursting in midair type  wrestling than the Logansport regional.   Thats a show in a show.  Its like the fireworks show after the Grateful Dead concert in the hollywood bowl.   Theres a reason nobody wants to go through Logansport,  and its not because the state mental hospital is there.   Wrestling is almost as good as the Jay County regional.  Just my humble opinion.

17 hours ago, tigrreapr56 said:

 

Multiple accounts?  Too Funny!  Some folk.

 

Best Wishes to our multiple accounters.  lols

 

Kenny Harden

#1Account

Kenny,

There's multiple account users?   That's the most disgusting thing i've heard on the history of Indianamat and OJ Simpsons twitter posts.  That's as bad when I work with Charles Barkley, and he gets the double Nachos with Jalapenos in the first half, and then lets out silent deadly ones in the booth during the second half and I have to keep a straight face while im delivering my long irrlelavant incoherent rants on national TV (which everybody loves).  

That's as bad as going to a lousy grateful dead tribute band concert and some dude passes maui wowie and its really parsley and cilantro.

Best wishes to those guys that  think they're  funny.  This is Indianamat, not Seinfeld re-runs.

Bill