Westforkwhite

On Thursday, February 01, 2018 at 11:38 AM, ontherise219 said:

Nice thanks @UncleJimmy we are going to do every Thursday around 6:45. We need to get him a head band for sure. Joe Reitz told me the show covers a lot of local politics and other region stuff. I am waiting for the call to expand to 1 hour. One day I will have to get in studio 

Great job! Really enjoyed your two regional breakdowns.

If class wrestling were implented in Indiana, what outcomes do you anticipate?

Does year round wrestling hurt the sport?

You don't become a more skilled wrestler playing other sports, so in that sense kids have far more developed skill sets because of year round wrestling. But as others have mentioned it has created greater separation at our top level, and potentially created a barrier of entry for kids new to the sport. Does that mean we impede the progress of our elite kids or programs for the betterment of the masses? (exemplified in the bias against V2 teams)

I see plusses and minuses, but it is here to stay. I prefer to see the specialization wait until MS or older, but i know that all circumstances arent the same, and it may well be the best thing for some younger kids. 

The one thing i like about year round wrestling is that it keeps the kids active and involved. Now i love Indiana, but we have a lot of depressed communities both economically and culturally. There isnt a whole lot else for kids to do besides partying. But wrestling year round keeps them engaged and focused. Kids are more likely to stay on a successful path if they are involved in something. If that something isnt another sport or constructive activity, then wrestling in those other 3 seasons is the answer.

1 hour ago, ontherise219 said:

We have some exceptional big guys right now. Parris 220 and 285 will be really good. I will use a example from this season at the harvest classic #1 Isaiah McWilliams was wrestling. So far undefeated wire to wire. A 2x semi finals and returning runner up. Accomplished he was competing against #1 in Illinois 2A at the time Myles Ruffin of brother rice again a state runner up. Both good athlete Ruffin went up early and McWilliams came back to win. A battle of #1’s returning runners up and a great match. 

What is sad half of the fans gone, all but 3 OW forms turned in before arguably the best match. Random draw maybe people still leave but maybe not  

Pokorney and McWilliams are exceptional and outstanding wrestlers and Parris is otherworldly, but none of that speaks to depth. Ault is a guy ive been impressed by and others too, so i certainly recognize there is talent and quality wrestling at hwt. I just don't see it with regularity i see at mid and low weights particularly when you get below the SS qualifier level. 

To your last point, that is a shame. When two kids put forth that kind of effort and performance it deserves to be recognized, no matter when it happens or at what weight. So i cant really refute that aspect. I want our best kids to be celebrated regardless of weight class, and if random draw can help accomplish that with limited drawbacks i see value.

All good points. I certainly agree bigger kids are in greater demand for other sports and consequently more big guys do play other sports. But the doesnt translate to greater wrestling skills it just means less mat time while you play that other sport. There is also no questioning the greatness of our elite bigs, they are superb. I just dont believe they are reflective of overall quality.

Sorry GrecoCoach for hijacking your thread. 

Just now, Thor said:

Did some heavyweight hurt you previously in life? I feel like half of your posts complain about heavyweight matches

No, and sorry i have taken a negative turn here. There are multiple big guys i think are exceptional wrestlers but i think the overall quality could be a lot better. I believe getting better starts with greater expectations and as long as we are willing to make excuses for the quality i dont see there being much that changes. I think Hwt wrestling can absolutely be great in this state, and i want us to get to a place where fans want to stay to see the hwts, and wouldnt dream of missing one minute of action. But thats not where were at. We can blame fans for their lack of interest or we can work to create interest and develop a more interesting product. 

13 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Folkstyle State last year
Junior 285 had 23 wrestlers, more than 100, 106, 113, and 120.
Cadet 285 had 17 wrestlers, more than 88, 94, and 100. 

I wouldn't want to let facts get in between you and your opinion though.

Or let selective choosing of data get in the way of your opinion.

Folkstyle State 2017

SB 98 - 35

SB 105 - 35

SB 190-265 (3 weights) - 12

CA 100 - 14

CA 106 - 31

CA 113 - 34

CA 220 - 7

CA 285 - 17

20 minutes ago, Galagore said:

Might also be because it is 9:00 or later when the 285s wrestle, and many of the fans have been in Indy all day...and many of them are not die-hard wrestling fans, they came to see "their guy/gal" wrestle under the lights. I feel fairly confident in predicting that a large number of people will leave before the end, regardless of which match is last...provided that match is chosen randomly, and not something like Lee v Red.

That is an absolutely valid point, but i would counter that fans dont have an expectation of equal level of quality for that last match thus its easier for them to leave. If it was the 126, 160 or 170 final i bet more folks would find a reason to stay, and although great match ups those arent Red vs Lee.

Fans also understand that 220 and hwt have to lowest participation levels of all weights as it relates to off season practice and competition. This is reflected in the quality of the product on display, and fans know it.

It's not a bad plan, but as opposed to pushing an idea that revamps the entire tournament structure, why not focus on fixing the semi state and state with minor changes?

It's difficult for me to imagine the IHSAA biting on this and it fails to address state placing which in my eyes is one of the two biggest problems the tourney faces.

Finally the consumers will stay if the product is compelling. The aren't walking out on the best match they are leaving when experience tells them the product doesn't warrant staying. The more hwts we develop with full skill sets (or even just expanded skills) the less we will have to play tricks with the starting weight to get the fans to watch. Chastising fans, without a critical eye on the product being delivered will only yield less fan interest, not more.

3 minutes ago, Thor said:

Yup it’ll be broadcast by the Berne Witness, as was sectional and will be semi state 

That's great news. Thanks.

Any word on Berne Sports doing a broadcast again? That was great the last few years.

13 minutes ago, nkraus said:

I don't want to offend anybody or get accused of "talking about a kid," but this stuff needs to change.  Today's kids are okay quitting when things get tough.  Moreover, the parents allow their kids to quit.  This is disappointing to me.  Once you start something you need to finish it, not only for yourself, but for your team.  If you choose not to go out for the sport the next year, then fine because you aren't quitting.  You are just choosing to not go back out.  It happens way too much nowadays.  Unfortunate.  

The same stuff happened 25 years ago. The whole, "we were tougher back when" gets tiresome. Maybe this is one of the reasons kids quit, they get told how soft they are constantly by these glory dayers.

Thorn only threatened once in the first. All Lee all day. That was impressive!

1 hour ago, V and M's Dad said:

I understand Football shape is different than Wrestling shape. However the point I made is that there are a number of High School athletes that weigh more 250 pounds and 285 pounds in shape and healthy. There were 10 Football players on Ben Davis's roster that weighed more than 260 pounds and 15 on Warren Central's. Are all of them in shape and healthy maybe not. But I am certain some of them are. 

 

Is it more or less Healthy to weigh 133 pounds and cut to 113 on a weekly basis?  

 

 Football and hwt both encourage massive weight gain (looks good in game programs and recruiting, and at weigh ins) The vast majority of HS boys are incapable of putting on more than 10 of muscle mass in a given offseason. Yet many kids gain 25-50 lbs in an offseason in preparation for football. Is that healthy?

7 minutes ago, OldGoatGrappler said:

If your naïveté results in inability to appreciate the fine art of heavyweight wrestling, it's your loss.  Some folks can discern and appreciate fine French wines and other drink Boone's Farm.  

Is this like a landscaper watching grass grow, or a painter watching paint dry. I'm certain they are seeing things im not, but at the end of the day im still not watching.

22 minutes ago, OldGoatGrappler said:

I'd watch a heavyweight match over a 106 ANY day... and when Bankers Life disrespectfully empties out - there is a silver lining, I get a front row seat.  

It's shameful how heavyweights are treated in our sport.  Mainly this is due to sheer naïveté.  I could go on and on, but let me just say that heavyweights are the only ones that are discriminated against because of weight (i.e., maximum weight is 285, weigh more than that and you sit - opposed to weigh 50 and you can still wrestle 106 - why is there an upper limit and not a minimum required weight?).

If i want nuance i'll watch a French art film, but when i go to a wrestling meet i prefer to see wrestling rather than pushing and the nuances of drawing stall calls.

19 minutes ago, Indysportsfan said:

Multiple ranked kids with multiple ranked teams is a clear indication of Sectional strength.  Zero chance Delta was the top Sectional last year.  Granted it appears they had at least 5 good kids but to me that does not speak about the totality of strength.

I reviewed the Delta Sectional last year, see below: 

16.  Delta (10) | 9 am ET | Results 
Cowan, Daleville, Delta, Monroe Central, Muncie Central, Randolph Southern, Wapahani, Wes-Del, Winchester, Yorktown

Yorktown was/is a good program, and Maddox/Gray were very good wrestlers but the overall depth did not compete with the better Sectionals last year.  Come on man!!

It was good on the high end last year(and will be this year too) but depth is lacking.

Upper level suites are 3500 lowers are 5500. Unless you put a deposit down and have your name on the waiting list getting one at this point will be difficult.

2 hours ago, grappleapple said:

Not sure why you singled out this sectional for your guess. Last year there were at least 5 state qualifiers from the sectional, including a runner-up finish.

Here's some of the records at Tri.

106: 38-3, 31-4, 26-6

113: 42-2, 33-2, 33-5, 26-6, 26-9

120: 28-11, 28-2, 21-18, 12-8

126: 39-3, 43-2, 28-5,

132: 38-1, 42-3, 26-9, 25-14

138: 18-4, 42-3, 26-9, 25-14

145: 32-0, 25-10, 27-11, 15-11

152 (weakest of the group with only four wrestlers): 30-7, 32-9

160: 29-4, 31-9, 23-7, 24-12

170: 34-8, 31-2, 26-9

182: 12-0, 36-5, 32-11, 16-10

195: 36-5, 30-5, 32-11, 16-11

220: 34-3, 30-6, 15-7, 11-5

Hvy: 34-1, 25-7, 30-10, 25-13

Having less than 7 qualifiers means you are a below average sectional.

I get wanting to defend your sectional. There are a few really good wrestlers at Tri but overall depth clearly places this as a bottom half sectional.

1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Exactly,   I don't think some people see the irony of this comparison.   There's this criticism of these sectionals with a large majority of small schools and a corresponding pride of being superior.  But its really just  a negative byproduct of a single class system where big schools routinely beat up on smaller schools.    And we complain, why cant those small guys just try harder and be better.      Please spare me from bringing up the wrestling version of Hickory High School in Indiana.  

Imagine how weak some sectionals would be when divided by 3?

42 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

The amount of moves that you can hit as a big guy is much more limited and the room for error is much smaller for big guys. It is much easier to get off your back when you have a 106lber on you than someone weighing 250lbs. Again the nuances of the sport between each end of the weight spectrum are what make this sport great. It's just like saying the linemen in football are just big fat ogres and we could do away with them.

Our weight classes are what make this sport so great, eliminating them at either end is a bad idea.

I can see your last point, but still prefer the last weights (MI uses).

I disagree that it should be more difficult to get your own body weight off of you unless you are conceding upper weights are less strong relative to their body weight. A 106 might only be able to bench press 110 but a 220 should put up 240, (given other equal strength ratios) thus giving him equal ability to get off his back. When we see this doesn't play out is typically when the strength doesnt match.

Lineman have an entirely different function on the football field, than say skill players. Hwts have the same fuction 106 pounders do so the analogy doesn't quite fit. If you took a quality 106 or 160 with the skills they have and gave them the size to be Hwts they would have disproportionate success compared to what they experienced in their old weight classes. If you reversed the experiment only the ultra elite hwts would be successful at the mid or low weights.

17 minutes ago, V and M's Dad said:

Davison beat Streck this year 8-1 but you have him getting teched or pinned by a 165 pound guy.   Stick by it if you want it is just simply inaccurate.  

You bringing up Snyder only feeds my point. He is 215 as you point out (like Samuels ) and he wrestles Hwt. Without Snyder and some of the smaller guys who would more naturally fall at 220 the Hwt division in the NCAA would pretty shallow. 

Davison is no joke so your point there has some validity. I still think Lee could pin him but it's possible he's held to majors in some of the matches with the right amount of stalling.

3 hours ago, V and M's Dad said:

Again I am not sure you are thinking things through. The guys you mentioned are really good however beating the likes of Streck, Boots, Hammond, McClaine, Aiken giving up 40 or more

pounds is silly. That is not to mention the quality that was there last year. Larson, Pokorney, Lee, Crider, Maddox.  I wouldn't get rid of 106 or 113 either but every since 220 (215) was

added there has been top notch quality guys. Lets not forget the best Wrestler in the country right now wrestles at 97kg (213lbs) not 125kg. 

If Larson and Pokorney are wrestling 220 in HS this year you have a point, but since neither are, ill stick by my statement.

22 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

There is quality wrestling at every weight. If you fail to understand or see that you do not understand the sport very well. Heavyweight and 220 are two of the hardest weights to wrestle when you look at the body type and style difference amongst the athletes competing. Look at Robert Samuels and Rickie Clark, and try to prepare to wrestle those two and every other style and body type in between. 

I agree with that to an extent, but for every Samuels vs Clark there are 1,000 push and slap fests. There has been some good wrestling in both the upper weights, but the point was made that 220 was more valuable than 106 and 113 to HS wrestling. I was simply pointing out that it wasn't more valuable or more skilled or even more competive than the lower weights that are often derided as MS weights.

Joe Lee would pin or TF every 220 not named Mason Parris, and he is 165. I understand Lee is special, but Fattore, Brewer, Mappes, and a number of really good 152-170 would beat all the 220s in the rankings stay for a couple. 

EC semistate has 2 really good Hwts, but beyond that we dont have much, and consistently lack depth at hwt and 220. Getting rid of 220 doesnt make Mason Parris sit, it just makes Hwt a more talented weight class that would be on par with the quality of more competitive weight classes.

Getting rid of 106 and 113 does make kids sit and completely sabotages one of the key recruiting assets of wrestling. Kids that are too small to matter on the bball court or fball field do matter on the wrestling mat.