Westforkwhite
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OntheRise219 on WJOB at 6:45 CST 104.7 FM or WJOB on facebook
Westforkwhite replied to indianmorg's topic in Past Discussions
Great job! Really enjoyed your two regional breakdowns. -
If class wrestling were implented in Indiana, what outcomes do you anticipate?
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Year round wrestling hurting the sport?
Westforkwhite replied to Wrestling Scholar's topic in Past Discussions
Does year round wrestling hurt the sport? You don't become a more skilled wrestler playing other sports, so in that sense kids have far more developed skill sets because of year round wrestling. But as others have mentioned it has created greater separation at our top level, and potentially created a barrier of entry for kids new to the sport. Does that mean we impede the progress of our elite kids or programs for the betterment of the masses? (exemplified in the bias against V2 teams) I see plusses and minuses, but it is here to stay. I prefer to see the specialization wait until MS or older, but i know that all circumstances arent the same, and it may well be the best thing for some younger kids. The one thing i like about year round wrestling is that it keeps the kids active and involved. Now i love Indiana, but we have a lot of depressed communities both economically and culturally. There isnt a whole lot else for kids to do besides partying. But wrestling year round keeps them engaged and focused. Kids are more likely to stay on a successful path if they are involved in something. If that something isnt another sport or constructive activity, then wrestling in those other 3 seasons is the answer. -
Pokorney and McWilliams are exceptional and outstanding wrestlers and Parris is otherworldly, but none of that speaks to depth. Ault is a guy ive been impressed by and others too, so i certainly recognize there is talent and quality wrestling at hwt. I just don't see it with regularity i see at mid and low weights particularly when you get below the SS qualifier level. To your last point, that is a shame. When two kids put forth that kind of effort and performance it deserves to be recognized, no matter when it happens or at what weight. So i cant really refute that aspect. I want our best kids to be celebrated regardless of weight class, and if random draw can help accomplish that with limited drawbacks i see value.
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All good points. I certainly agree bigger kids are in greater demand for other sports and consequently more big guys do play other sports. But the doesnt translate to greater wrestling skills it just means less mat time while you play that other sport. There is also no questioning the greatness of our elite bigs, they are superb. I just dont believe they are reflective of overall quality. Sorry GrecoCoach for hijacking your thread.
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No, and sorry i have taken a negative turn here. There are multiple big guys i think are exceptional wrestlers but i think the overall quality could be a lot better. I believe getting better starts with greater expectations and as long as we are willing to make excuses for the quality i dont see there being much that changes. I think Hwt wrestling can absolutely be great in this state, and i want us to get to a place where fans want to stay to see the hwts, and wouldnt dream of missing one minute of action. But thats not where were at. We can blame fans for their lack of interest or we can work to create interest and develop a more interesting product.
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Or let selective choosing of data get in the way of your opinion. Folkstyle State 2017 SB 98 - 35 SB 105 - 35 SB 190-265 (3 weights) - 12 CA 100 - 14 CA 106 - 31 CA 113 - 34 CA 220 - 7 CA 285 - 17
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That is an absolutely valid point, but i would counter that fans dont have an expectation of equal level of quality for that last match thus its easier for them to leave. If it was the 126, 160 or 170 final i bet more folks would find a reason to stay, and although great match ups those arent Red vs Lee. Fans also understand that 220 and hwt have to lowest participation levels of all weights as it relates to off season practice and competition. This is reflected in the quality of the product on display, and fans know it.
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It's not a bad plan, but as opposed to pushing an idea that revamps the entire tournament structure, why not focus on fixing the semi state and state with minor changes? It's difficult for me to imagine the IHSAA biting on this and it fails to address state placing which in my eyes is one of the two biggest problems the tourney faces. Finally the consumers will stay if the product is compelling. The aren't walking out on the best match they are leaving when experience tells them the product doesn't warrant staying. The more hwts we develop with full skill sets (or even just expanded skills) the less we will have to play tricks with the starting weight to get the fans to watch. Chastising fans, without a critical eye on the product being delivered will only yield less fan interest, not more.
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That's great news. Thanks.
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Any word on Berne Sports doing a broadcast again? That was great the last few years.
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The same stuff happened 25 years ago. The whole, "we were tougher back when" gets tiresome. Maybe this is one of the reasons kids quit, they get told how soft they are constantly by these glory dayers.
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Thorn only threatened once in the first. All Lee all day. That was impressive!
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Football and hwt both encourage massive weight gain (looks good in game programs and recruiting, and at weigh ins) The vast majority of HS boys are incapable of putting on more than 10 of muscle mass in a given offseason. Yet many kids gain 25-50 lbs in an offseason in preparation for football. Is that healthy?
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Is this like a landscaper watching grass grow, or a painter watching paint dry. I'm certain they are seeing things im not, but at the end of the day im still not watching.
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If i want nuance i'll watch a French art film, but when i go to a wrestling meet i prefer to see wrestling rather than pushing and the nuances of drawing stall calls.
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It was good on the high end last year(and will be this year too) but depth is lacking.
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Upper level suites are 3500 lowers are 5500. Unless you put a deposit down and have your name on the waiting list getting one at this point will be difficult.
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Having less than 7 qualifiers means you are a below average sectional. I get wanting to defend your sectional. There are a few really good wrestlers at Tri but overall depth clearly places this as a bottom half sectional.
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Imagine how weak some sectionals would be when divided by 3?
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I can see your last point, but still prefer the last weights (MI uses). I disagree that it should be more difficult to get your own body weight off of you unless you are conceding upper weights are less strong relative to their body weight. A 106 might only be able to bench press 110 but a 220 should put up 240, (given other equal strength ratios) thus giving him equal ability to get off his back. When we see this doesn't play out is typically when the strength doesnt match. Lineman have an entirely different function on the football field, than say skill players. Hwts have the same fuction 106 pounders do so the analogy doesn't quite fit. If you took a quality 106 or 160 with the skills they have and gave them the size to be Hwts they would have disproportionate success compared to what they experienced in their old weight classes. If you reversed the experiment only the ultra elite hwts would be successful at the mid or low weights.
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You bringing up Snyder only feeds my point. He is 215 as you point out (like Samuels ) and he wrestles Hwt. Without Snyder and some of the smaller guys who would more naturally fall at 220 the Hwt division in the NCAA would pretty shallow. Davison is no joke so your point there has some validity. I still think Lee could pin him but it's possible he's held to majors in some of the matches with the right amount of stalling.
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If Larson and Pokorney are wrestling 220 in HS this year you have a point, but since neither are, ill stick by my statement.
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I agree with that to an extent, but for every Samuels vs Clark there are 1,000 push and slap fests. There has been some good wrestling in both the upper weights, but the point was made that 220 was more valuable than 106 and 113 to HS wrestling. I was simply pointing out that it wasn't more valuable or more skilled or even more competive than the lower weights that are often derided as MS weights.
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Joe Lee would pin or TF every 220 not named Mason Parris, and he is 165. I understand Lee is special, but Fattore, Brewer, Mappes, and a number of really good 152-170 would beat all the 220s in the rankings stay for a couple. EC semistate has 2 really good Hwts, but beyond that we dont have much, and consistently lack depth at hwt and 220. Getting rid of 220 doesnt make Mason Parris sit, it just makes Hwt a more talented weight class that would be on par with the quality of more competitive weight classes. Getting rid of 106 and 113 does make kids sit and completely sabotages one of the key recruiting assets of wrestling. Kids that are too small to matter on the bball court or fball field do matter on the wrestling mat.
