Y2CJ41

Well I agree, that is a problem but lets face it some teams are still finishing up football when wrestling starts.

I agree Y2 but pleasing the IHSAA is kind of tough and they march the banner of everything the same although its not really the same as other sports.

In the past the IHSWCA has had the notion that we need to FIGHT the IHSAA. Sadly that attitude has failed us miserably. It is interesting that other coaches associations get proposals to pass fairly easily and have very little issues with the IHSAA rules. Wrestling needs to take pages out of those association's book and work WITH the IHSAA, not against them.

 

I compare it to the kid in class that doesn't do anything wrong, but always toes the line. That kid isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to grading because of his past history.

Seems to me if you make it "like" other sports then the IHSAA is more apt. to do it.  If they would extend season by two weeks it could be done nice and organized and in 4 classes how they like it.  Example each sectional say has 8 teams thereabout some may only have 7 (blind draw like all other sports...someone may get a bye)..

 

2 weeks before individual sectionals start round one of 4 team sectional on a Weds. night....next week, same thing..gets you to 8 teams per class that have a semi-state somewhere on Saturday after individual state then the next week you get 4 state championships..You could get creative on how you do it to keep the crowd. you could potentially do a final 4 in all 4 classes and shorten the semi-state idea... I like the coaches thing going on but just spit-balling.  If you want it recognized you have to play by their rules and figure out how to get attendance there which is ultimately why team state went away in the first place.

 

Now obviously you may have some say that we won't get a true champion because the best teams may beat each other in sectional or semi-state, and while true if you want something recognized you have to do it within the small box of imagination that the IHSAA provides.  Other than that go to the old format but have 4 states in 4 different gyms like Bend Davis, Warren Central, North Central and Tech or something or 1A,3A in one and 2 and 4A in another site. Hell you could implement the success factor even and make the tournament more compelling I suppose.

My best proposal would be this

2 individual classes and a 3 week state tournament

 

4 team classes and the following as the tournament the week of what we now have as sectional

Each class would have approximately 75 teams

You have 16 sectionals with 4-6 teams on Tuesday night, run to a champion

Thursday have 4 regionals with 4 teams on Thursday night, run to a champion

Saturday have 4 from each class and the semi-finals and finals

That's not really my decision.  That line was already drawn, and the people in charge voted not to change it.

 

The ideal event would be IHSAA sponsored, classed, all-in duals from start to finish (not just sectional champs), and separate from the individual post season.

 

Bracket tournament of duals on a Saturday, one weeknight dual on Wednesday, then team state the next Saturday.  It would take lots of organizing to make it happen, so the IHSAA would have to be in charge of it and give it the ultimate creditbility.

And you answered neither of the questions, great job.

So let's exclude 41 schools so that a couple of others can be bumped down a class and qualify?

Yes, but it's more than a couple can be bumped down, it would be closer to 25 to 1A and 15 to 2A. 25 and 15 are far from a couple.

 

What is really better for the overall growth of wrestling in the state?

The team state duals are doing nothing at all for the programs with less than seven kids on their team. Heck it really does very little for teams with even 10 on their team. Only in your fantasy world do you think a team with 5 kids is saying "hey look we need 100 more points and we qualify, yippee!

 

What other "rules" can we add to exclude teams with no chance of qualifying?

As stated earlier this is my only real complaint about the system.

 

How about if a team gets beat 80-0 or worse during the season, they don't get included either?  They aren't going to qualify this year.  Why include them when some other team could drop a class and qualify?

If they have a full team they have a lot better shot of qualifying than one with 5 kids on their team. It's a lot easier to tell your team, "hey we need to get three more of you to regional and one more to semi-state and we'll be in the running" than "hey we need 8 more guys on the team next year and half need to go to regional for us to qualify."

 

When lines get drawn, people are going to push it one way or the other to help themselves.  Those in charge just need to keep the big picture and ultimate goal in mind.

Why is the line being drawn at 2 wrestlers then? What does a team with 2 varsity wrestlers have that is so much different than one with 3 or 4 in the team state qualifying?

 

In your world that team with 3 wrestlers is using team state to "grow" their program, but you want to exclude the one with 2 wrestlers from the ability to "grow" their program.

 

That's bull honkey and you know it!

Joe, I'll ask again - How does excluding teams help their programs grow?

 

Why can't a team with 5 or 6 solid young wrestlers see how they compare?  A coach could use that as motivation to say "See how we did with just a few guys - let's get more guys so we can do even better."

 

If you're concerned with the data managers wasting their time calculating scores for teams with no chance, don't you think they would have complained if it was really a problem?  I've done it for them.  With the spreadsheets they've created, it's not too difficult to do.

We can calculate their scores all you want. That's not the issue, the issue is including teams that have virtually no chance of qualifying for the event even with six returning state champions.

 

Those teams are not using the IHSWCA team state to grow their program. Teams with less than seven wrestlers right now have at most 62 points in 1A, the IHSWCA team state is not exactly on their radar. They need more than a "few" more kids on their team to be in consideration.

When we stop treating the IHSAA Individual State Point leader like the Team State Champion then I think we will start making some progress. This may sound crazy, but I wonder what the IHSAA would do if the team that scores the most points  at Bankers Life decided not to accept the IHSAA Team Champion trophy. 

You attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

 

The tough guy attitude with the IHSAA has gotten our sport no where with them. Our coaches association needs to work to rebuild that bridge with the IHSAA big wigs as that will do more than refusing a trophy.

I completely understand the rationale behind this since teams with less than 7 wrestlers cannot win a dual against a full team.  However, that's for this season.  The event is for next season.  A team with 6 successful young wrestlers could very likely fill most of the weight classes the next season and be competitive.

 

The only benefit of not counting teams with less than 7 wrestlers at Sectionals is that bigger schools will be bumped down to the lower classes.  A couple of different teams would qualify for the event, a couple others wouldn't qualify.  The downfall is that we're telling struggling programs that they don't count.  Doesn't that go against the purpose of classing the event?  How does excluding teams help their programs grow?

If a team enters six wrestlers in the state series and they all won state and were underclassmen they would get 150 points. 

 

In 1A and 2A they would be likely in the last voting area to get a bid.

In 3A they would have no chance at a bid.

 

Here are last year's scores for reference

http://indianamat.com/index.php/topic/47812-2016-ihswca-state-duals-qualifying-scores-and-final-selections/

 

If they would be voted into the event with only six wrestlers I think I'd have to invest in about triple the bandwidth on this website.

I would also say that if the coaches of those teams that have less than 7 wrestlers are members of the IHSWCA that they should be included in the IHSWCA event.

If we did that we'd only have about 150 teams eligible for the IHSWCA duals.

Could someone do the breakdown of what teams would be in what classes if we used teams that had 7 or more wrestlers with the current numbers?

93 schools in each class, this is without updated forfeits AFTER sectional

I agree. Why should we go by IHSAA specifications when it is something they don't want to be involved with in the first place. If the Team State is an event sanctioned by the IHSWCA, then make the specifications according to the voting body and not a governing body.

As stated previously they use IHSAA regulations when it seems fit and then buck them when they also seem fit.

 

 

There is no valid reason why they should include teams with less than 7 wrestlers.

The biggest deficiency right now is that we include teams with less than 7 wrestlers in the calculations.

Brennan Cosgrove should be #1 at ALL weight classes, duh!

It's an interesting topic, and I was curious if any "weighed" in on it. Surely there are some in head coaching positions at a smaller schools. Wouldn't you think by much of the logic here that they would be pro-multiple individual class tournament?  

I just gazed at the 1A coaches listed on the website and could only identify Courtney Duncan at Frankton as a former state champ.

"3A schools have 47% of the wrestlers still in the state tournament and average 8.25 regional qualifiers per team

2A schools have 25% of the wrestlers still in the state tournament and average 5.64 regional qualifiers per team

1A schools have 13% of the wrestlers still in the state tournament and average 3.75 regional qualifiers per"

 

I am just asking but shouldn't this total up to 100%? Where does the other 15% go?

Yes I'll correct it

 

Should have been 

3A 47%

2A 32%

1A 21%

Along the same lines I was going to ask..

 

Are there any previous individual state champions here (or that anyone knows of) that are in favor of a classed individual tournament? I'd be interested in hearing their thoughts on it if so.

Why are their opinions better than years of data?

 

Why are their opinions better than people who have coached at small and big schools?

 

 

State champions make up about .3%(yes there is a decimal in front of the 3) of the athletes ever to grace the mat in the state. Not sure that kind of sample size is really worth much.

Congratulations to Hunter Bates from Adams Central for signing with Wabash. He is will Football.

Click here to view the signing

Well, since HS is folkstyle, I'd say their match from folkstyle state is the better indicator of a potential match up.

That wasn't the point, the said poster commented that all of their matches were 2-3 point matches.

I know I saw it 5ish years ago in football or basketball, but cannot recall the school.

I couldn't disagree more. Walton has made serious gains during this offseason where most of his losses came only to Andrew Davison (mostly 2-3 point matches). I think Walton will surprise people when he steps on to the mat against Hughes.

I love me some Walton, but....

Greco State

1st Place Match: Andrew Davison (Duneland Wrestling Club) over Nathan Walton (Brownsburg Wrestling Club) (TF 22-13) 

*He had some suspect coaching in that match

 

Freestyle State

1st Place Match: Andrew Davison (Duneland Wrestling Club) over Nathan Walton (Brownsburg Wrestling Club) (Fall 3:23) 

 

Folkstyle State

 1st Place Match: Andrew Davison (Duneland Wrestling Club) over Nathan Walton (Brownsburg Wrestling Club) (Dec 5-3) 

I used to always oppose class wrestling on any level. 

Then I came around to understanding that class wrestling for teams is necessary and good for Indiana wrestling. 

 

I am now on the verge of at least understanding the concept of classing individual wrestling.  However, I stll find something troubling.

 

Mater Dei - is no question one of the best teams in the state, but would not be 3A if they followed strict class rules.  We understand that they are an outlier, so we let them compete at the 3A level.  But why do we do this?  I agree they should be placed in 3A for the team tournament.  But will they also be in 3A for the individual?  If so, why do they get placed in 3A and someone from another 1 or 2A school doesnt get the chance to see if he could beat most of those 3A kids? 

 

In a previous thread it was mentioned that kids would love to win a state championship and it wouldnt matter what class it was in.  If that was the case, then why wouldnt there be a strict 1A, 2A, 3A line drawn?  Maybe there would be I just haven't been sold that class wrestling is needed for the individual just yet.  (But I'm saying there is a chance.)

The IHSAA allows for teams to go up in class if they choose to do so. It is rare, but does occur sometimes.

 

2-3 Classification by Enrollment; Different Classes Assignment; Change Class Assignment

School enrollment figures used for classifying Schools shall be the enrollment in grades 9-12 for all students, as certified in the annual report filed with the State Department of Education in a classification year.

 

a. Schools with single gender enrollment shall double the certified enrollment figures for classification purposes.

 

b. A School may be assigned to different Classes in different sports.

 

c. A School shall be assigned to a Class by the IHSAA and shall enter the IHSAA tournament in that assigned Class unless it notifies the Association, in writing, that it wishes to move up One (1) or more Classes. This notification shall (1) accompany the submission of the School’s enrollment figures and (2) be effective for the succeeding Two (2) years. A School may choose to move up in a specific sport/s.

That was just one example, I can think of a number of smaller schools that have always been able to compete with the larger schools. If I can win against everyone, why would I want to enter a tournament with lesser opponents and be given a consolation prize when I could have won it all? 

 

Oh... that's right, this is America, so we need to help the needy and disadvantaged so everyone is equal. Why give out 1 trophy when we can give out 3 or 8 or 15? So St. Mary Catholic School for the Blind can receive a bid for the 1A State Tournament, throw a big party in the local square which leads to a rejuvenated excitement for the sport of wrestling. Now everyone at the school wants to wrestle and all of our problems are solved. 

 

Div. 1 basketball should develop 2 or 3 more levels so a school like Butler can compete. I'm sure March Madness' popularity has nothing to do with the 'underdog' or 'Cinderella' stories. I know, I know, we are talking about Butler and they can recruit all across the country and I am comparing apples and oranges, but can't we do some 'recruiting' in our own communities? I'm not saying small school coaches/wrestlers/parents/fans don't care about competing - but if we were really driven by 'making the sport better' - does the state tournament make the difference? 

 

I'll end here because I am sure most of you have tuned out. I work to make the sport better because I am convinced it is one of the best tools to help young men develop. I know they can experience things through the sport that they will not experience elsewhere. If the state tournament changes, it won't make me any more or less motivated to get young men and children involved in the sport. A trophy or title has never been the motivation and if that has become our motivation, maybe we have found the real problem with the sport. 

So there are 101 small schools, how many of them can "compete" with the big dawgs?

 

Why not have 1 weight class then? Why are we fixated on giving out 14 trophies? When I was at Garrett I had a 106lber that would tech fall our heavyweight, so he shows it can happen.

Brought to you by EI Sports

 

 

By JEREMY HINES

Thehines7@gmail.com

 

Indianapolis Cathedral’s Blake Rypel is one of Indiana’s most dominating forces on the wrestling mat. His name is recognized by just about everyone who cares even a little bit about the sport in the Hoosier state. Rypel wants more though – he wants everyone in the country to know his name.

 

“I want to be one of the most recognizable names in college wrestling as well,” Rypel said. “I want to be a four-year contender for the National Championship.”

 

Rypel, a senior at Cathedral, will wrestle next season for the Indiana Hoosiers. He currently is 34-0 this season and is riding an 80-match winning streak.

 

“Blake is the kind of wrestler that is tough to coach,” Cathedral coach Sean McGinley said. “He can do so many things that you really don’t practice. You kind of let him go on that. He’s so good on the mat, he’s teaching us in the room. He’s a very special wrestler.”

 

Last season Rypel was the state champion at 195 pounds. This year, in order to benefit the Cathedral team, Rypel has cut down to 182 pounds.

 

“Here’s a guy that is committed to IU,” McGinley said. “He’s a returning state champ. He’s ranked No. 1 in the state at 195 pounds. But he decides to drop weight and go down to 182 for the betterment of the team. That right there tells you what kind of kid Blake is.”

 

Rypel’s decision to drop to 182 was for the benefit of the team, but it was also to help out his good friend Ben Stewart.

 

“Ben is a football player,” Rypel said. “He wants to play in college and he wants to be bulking up, not cutting weight. So I said I would go down to 182 so he didn’t have to.”

 

Stewart is currently ranked No. 2 in the state at 195.

 

“If Blake doesn’t go down to 182, Ben doesn’t wrestle,” McGinley said. “So obviously his decision to drop has greatly helped our team.”

 

Rypel finished seventh as a freshman at 160 pounds. He was second his sophomore season at 182 and he won last year at 195.

 

His freshman year was one of his most trying seasons because his father passed away unexpectedly a few weeks before the start of the season.

 

“That was terrible,” Rypel said. “I used it as motivation though. I dedicated a lot of my wins to my dad. Every once in a while I start to dwell on his death, but I try not to.”

 

Rypel comes from a basketball family. His dad, brother and sister were all basketball standouts. Ironically, Blake was introduced to wrestling through basketball.

 

“My basketball coach at the time, I think it was around 2005 or 2006, had a son that wrestled and he told me that I might like it,” Rypel said. “The first year I thought wrestling was OK, but in the second year I really started winning and fell in love with the sport.”

 

Rypel is already focused on his college wrestling. He has dreamed of going to Indiana University ever since he was little, and he can’t wait to put on that Hoosier singlet.

 

“Every college I visited was pretty cool,” Rypel said. “But I already knew everyone on IU’s team. I have been a Hoosier fan all of my life. I never thought that one day I’d be good enough to wrestle for them.”

 

McGinley believes Rypel will have a lot of success in college because he is a dominating wrestler on top, which suits the college style.

 

As far as finishing his high school career, he said anything less than a state championship would be a disappointment.

 

Rypel won the Lawrence Central sectional last week, beating No. 3 ranked Cameron Jones 8-6 in the final.

 

He hopes Cathedral can also claim the team state championship. The Irish have seven ranked wrestlers still competing: Lukasz Waldensak (No. 13, 106), Jordan Slivka (No. 12, 113), Breyden Bailey (No. 2, 126), Zach Melloh (No. 6, 132), Rypel (No. 1, 182), Stewart (No. 2, 195) and Ryan Guhl (No. 9, 220).

 

“I really believe we have some of the strongest wrestlers in the state,” Rypel said. “As long as our guys can place, we have a real good shot at winning.”

 

Click here to view the article

3A schools have 47% of the wrestlers still in the state tournament and average 8.25 regional qualifiers per team

2A schools have 32% of the wrestlers still in the state tournament and average 5.64 regional qualifiers per team

Pride? Honor? I know teams that haven't competed at a championship level for a number of years but the coaches and wrestlers show up every day and bust their @$$. Even if there is a classed state tournament, South Side (historically speaking) will not be in the running for a title. Regardless of how the state tournament is run, coaches and schools should have the internal motivation to put their best foot forward and field a complete roster. 

 

Personally, I don't think the size of the school matters. Bellmont has historically beaten every size of school, destroyed teams in the NHC that were 2 or 3 times their size. This isn't football or basketball where we rotate guys off a bench. Yes, depth matters for a number of reasons, but small schools can compete and some big schools suck. It doesn't matter if they are 2,000 kids if you can't find 14 that want to wrestle. The responsibility is the same at each school, find kids, field a roster, if the roster isn't full, go find more kids and eventually you breed a culture and a community that can compete. Instead of pointing the finger and looking for the path of least resistance, find a way that is within your control to make the most out of the current system. 

So your reasoning is because you can name some smaller schools that do well and some big schools that aren't very good that there is nothing wrong with our system?  Please read this about anecdotal evidence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

It happens every year, usually you know what teams will come in with inflated records.

Here is a link to the Ohio Team State Rules and Regulations:  http://ohsaa.org/sports/wr/boys/wrrglts-team.pdf

 

Is that the main goal?  I don't mind this idea either, but I haven't heard anyone state that we would look at this format. 

 

Something interesting that I noticed in these rules and regulations:

8. ENTRY FORMS AND ELIGIBILITY CERTIFICATES (a) A school that can field a team of 7 weight classes or more is eligible to enter the Dual Team Tournament.

Oh we need to include everyone! Those teams with 3 kids are going to be sad if they aren't included.