Coach Trapp Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 my thoughts are: Either we are going to allow 4 kids on each elementary team, not meeting the team criteria, or not. There shouldn't be any other restrictions beside living in the state of Indiana. If this is suppose to be mimicking Disney Duals, I don't believe they put any restrictions on the 4 wrestlers not from that original high school. You get four wrestlers period. I might be wrong on this so correct me if I am and I apologize. But still; We think we are helping teams with the extra 4 wrestlers. But when we add the 45, now 30 mile radius, we are doing more damage than good. The only thing we've done is make the strong/big teams stronger. And the not so strong/little teams weaker. Everyone knows its a numbers games. The bigger the pool, the better chance at talent. That's in everything. That's reality. That's why we all heavily recruit, in a positive way. A team in a heavily populated area, such as Indianapolis or its surroundings already has the numbers. A 30 mile radius is now allowing heavily populated areas to go across town and do exactly what we say we don't want to happen. Hire guns. While a not so populated area, such as Scottsburg, a 30 mile radius does absolutely nothing. We haven't helped them. And we haven't help the kids in small towns with no clubs. They still don't get to participate because they don't live 30 miles close to a club/team. Meanwhile the teams in the heavily populated areas are getting the pick of the litter. The question we need to ask ourselves is, what is the purpose of the extra four wrestlers? Is it really to help fill teams and allow wrestlers with no clubs to participate? Or are we just half way implementing something? Either you allow 4 wrestlers(or you might even drop it down to 3) with no restrictions beside living in the state of Indiana or you don't allow any extra wrestlers at all and teams gotta roll with what they got(just like High School). just my 2 cents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Trapp Posted December 31, 2011 Author Share Posted December 31, 2011 Thanks for the timely reply Matt. I appreciate it. I had read the thread you referred to earlier. I should've just replied there, instead of starting a new topic. My bad. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INWRPA Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 When was the 30 mile radius implemented? Posts that I read last week never mentioned the 30 miles. Now teams who have had their rosters set for weeks with kids that live more than 30 miles away only have one week to find wrestlers to fill weight classes. I agree with Coach Trap's commets above...and please don't tell me you appreciate my concern, too. Teams should get 4 wrestlers who they chose. You stated that 4 kids make up about 20% of your roster. 20% of your roster is not going to make you an all star team. I think the real question is "What can we do to help the Avon win again?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signal34 Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Disney Duals is a national tournament so why are you guys even using that as an example. This should be a community base tournament. They should be within the district or belong to the club. For the poor kids that can't participate there are plenty of other tournaments. Like someone already said this is about Avon. I see Avon has two teams I'm guessing they brought in some studs to bump out the normal team. You will notice this if you have been at the elementary tournaments the past few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardCharger Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Sourcing kids to fill holes is one thing (from neighboring schools), but in most cases that won't be the situation..Most likely to happen, An existing kid that has busted his butt, trying to learn this great sport will be sidelined due to a tougher kid coming in from another team just so the TEAM can be competitive. Wrestle with what you got... This isn't fantasy footbal that has free agency and the waiver wire. If you have to fill weight classes, go to the next geographically located club that chooses not to compete in Elem Team State, and fill from there. If they do not have that weight you move to the next closest club. Will the ISWA have the map of Indiana and the 30 mile radius marks around every school competing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLane Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I think the 30 mile radius and to add 4 wrestlers is generous. This is a community dual event, I still think it should be only the school you attend. That would make the rules striaght forward (so if you attend school A you can't wrestle for school B or C) There is no issues with the IHSAA when Class 4a Team wins a State Title over a 2-3a school. And all those teams have kids from their school not a 30 mile radius or adding 4wrestlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardCharger Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I agree.. The 30 miles doesn't benefit alot smaller schools like most are assuming. The geographies that are more populated with schools.. ie..Avon, CG, PM, and Warren for example are all 30 miles from each other. I know these clubs are entered to compete, but they have kids from Roncalli, Greenwood, New Pal, Fishers, Zionsville, Westfield, Mooresville... I could go on and on but hopefully I have stated my point.. Does Lawerenceburg, Gladiator, Duneland, Jay county for example have the same 30 mile pot to pick from? Not sure but highly unlikely.. I like the base of the idea but who is it benefiting.. , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooks Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I guess what I dont like about this rule is that most rual clubs dont have the numbers as that of the bigger (indy) schools... And now with the addition of the 30 mile rule they will have an even bigger advantage... Im not sure there is even a club within 30 miles of us.. Yet there are all kinds of clubs within 30 miles of most Indy schools... So Danny I have to say that it is not a gift from the ISWA... I see how it bennefits you guys a lot... But for most of the smaller cubs out there it just got that much tougher... I know we have a lot of holes on our team that we jut cant fill. So we did pick up 3 kids out of area to fill holes that we had.. These kids were taking spots that had no wrestlers in them, and the kids from other areas had no team... Now all of a sudden Avon has two teams...How many matches had the Lane boys wrestled for Avon before state??? Just curious I know that you will go to High School there but what is the difference between you joining the club for state and clubs picking up kids to fill holes... I really think the ISWA needs to look into this and fix this problem... Seems to me that now all the big schools will have a monopoly on the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLane Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I guess what I dont like about this rule is that most rual clubs dont have the numbers as that of the bigger (indy) schools... And now with the addition of the 30 mile rule they will have an even bigger advantage... Im not sure there is even a club within 30 miles of us.. Yet there are all kinds of clubs within 30 miles of most Indy schools... So Danny I have to say that it is not a gift from the ISWA... I see how it bennefits you guys a lot... But for most of the smaller cubs out there it just got that much tougher... I know we have a lot of holes on our team that we jut cant fill. So we did pick up 3 kids out of area to fill holes that we had.. These kids were taking spots that had no wrestlers in them, and the kids from other areas had no team... Now all of a sudden Avon has two teams...How many matches had the Lane boys wrestled for Avon before state??? Just curious I know that you will go to High School there but what is the difference between you joining the club for state and clubs picking up kids to fill holes... I really think the ISWA needs to look into this and fix this problem... Seems to me that now all the big schools will have a monopoly on the system. Never said it was a gift they (ISWA) should make it community only then no one could say anything. And avon has took 2 teams to dual events for years, that's not something new. Do to my job I have to pick and chose what events my sons wrestle at. That means we do not wrestle alot of local duals or local ISWA events. With that being said I believe some of the duals fell on weekends we wrestled at Kickoff, Michgian Duals and Virginia Duals. As for Columbus be rural I really not sure about and 40,000 people they have compared to Avons 20,000. I am sure Matt can answer this, but I believe the Avon teams are 98% Avon studendets. The other 2% are Danville or Plainfield kids, but all the kids are from Hendricks County. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signal34 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Disney Duals is a national tournament so why are you guys even using that as an example. This should be a community base tournament. They should be within the district or belong to the club. For the poor kids that can't participate there are plenty of other tournaments. Like someone already said this is about Avon. I see Avon has two teams I'm guessing they brought in some studs to bump out the normal team. You will notice this if you have been at the elementary tournaments the past few weeks. [/quote Or maybe the community has a lot of wrestlers that are willing to participate. Maybe if you thumb through the ISWA book you will see lots of kids that placed last year from Avon. Maybe their club wanted to be sure that all kids could participate. Maybe they have kids that wrestle all over the country and have not had a chance to do all the local duals. Maybe they were the second largest club in the ISWA last year and are bigger this year. Why put our club on blast. Feel free to call me. Maybe because you did the same thing last year. All of a sudden you had a totally different team. Call you come on. Don't need to everyone already knows. Already talked to two families that signed up for your club a couple weeks ago and still havnt practice with you once. I guess they are active members. Disney Duals is a national tournament so why are you guys even using that as an example. This should be a community base tournament. They should be within the district or belong to the club. For the poor kids that can't participate there are plenty of other tournaments. Like someone already said this is about Avon. I see Avon has two teams I'm guessing they brought in some studs to bump out the normal team. You will notice this if you have been at the elementary tournaments the past few weeks. [/quote Or maybe the community has a lot of wrestlers that are willing to participate. Maybe if you thumb through the ISWA book you will see lots of kids that placed last year from Avon. Maybe their club wanted to be sure that all kids could participate. Maybe they have kids that wrestle all over the country and have not had a chance to do all the local duals. Maybe they were the second largest club in the ISWA last year and are bigger this year. Why put our club on blast. Feel free to call me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrioux Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I can assure you "Signal34" that all the members of the Avon team live in the Avon school district with the excpetion of maybe 2 or 3 kids combined from both teams. These kids live in the neighboring towns. All fairness was given to anyone who wanted to wrestle at this event and wrestle offs were held for all spots where there was more than one kid. My 3 boys all actually wrestled off twice each for their spots and one of them didn't make either team. Matt's own son even had to wrestle off for his spot. As stated above you may not see everyone at local events due to alot of wrestling at a national level. Dual season is not just a local thing, my oldest son has already been to 3 national dual events this year and has atleast on more to go. Not to mention individual national tourneys that have been recently. ie: BorderWars, Tulsa Kickoff, Dixie...to name a few. In order for our children to better themselves they need to compete at this level. Avon is not the only team who had kids missing at one or more local dual meets, I know for a fact that several kids from other teams missed some of these. They were with us out of state, I won't name names but they know who they are. As for practicing with the team, I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but as far as I know everyone on the team has been to practice. We may not make to every single on but we get there once or twice a week for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLane Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 So signal34..... The ISWA needs to make it a community base dual only. That means you have to attend that school live in that area. Also you can not attend any Acdmeny AT ALL ( i.e. Contenders, CIA, Red Cobra or Humperys) if you attend a year around based club once in a physical year you are not allowed. Does this make it fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekocottonball Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 A total aside to this silly discussion; I'm a former 4 year D1 wrestler. you people are crazy dragging your children all over the nation for tournaments. It is a complete waste for a 9 year old and will have zero bearing on high school or collegiate success. You will only burn the kid out and he will dislike you later. Saw it a zillion times in high school and college. Before you reply, were you a D1 wrestler whose has trained with Olympians like me? Or are you a parent who was a .600 wrestler in high school who now has concocted the magic formula to make your kid win a gold medal? Now get back to your silly discussion about figuring out how to be the Elementary School champion of nothingness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLane Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Good point... Me taking my sons to one or two tournaments out of state each month not a huge deal. Let's say Nov to May (6 mths) thats anywhere from 6-12 tournaments. And the local parent taking there kid to ISWA local tournament every weekend (3-4 ) for 6 mths. That's about any where from 18-24 tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrioux Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 A total aside to this silly discussion; I'm a former 4 year D1 wrestler. you people are crazy dragging your children all over the nation for tournaments. It is a complete waste for a 9 year old and will have zero bearing on high school or collegiate success. You will only burn the kid out and he will dislike you later. Saw it a zillion times in high school and college. Before you reply, were you a D1 wrestler whose has trained with Olympians like me? Or are you a parent who was a .600 wrestler in high school who now has concocted the magic formula to make your kid win a gold medal? Now get back to your silly discussion about figuring out how to be the Elementary School champion of nothingness. OK we get the point...you were a good wrestler. Thats what you wanted us all to know right?? To answer your question tho, no I was not a D1 wrestler, nor have I trained with Olympians. On the other hand I was also not a .600 wrestler in high school either.......I am a mom! I the mom of 4 wonderful little boys who love the sport of wrestling. And before you go there, no my husband never wrestled either. My oldest son tried it all before he got into wretsling, soccer, baseball, football, even ice hockey, he found wrestling and loves it with all his heart. He works extremely hard and is getting better all the time. We all fully understand that when the time comes a college recuiter is not going to look back and say "hey this kid was a state champion when he was 10, or a national runner-up" However as with all sports to be competetive now a days kids have to start young and work hard. We go to National events becasue that is what my son chooses to do, he enjoys traveling with his friends and wrestling the best kids around. It may be "nothingness" to you, but these kids will look back someday and remember all the fun they had as a kid wrestling all over the country whether they are a D1 wrestler training with Olympians or not. Right now, to them ,it is their Olympics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooks Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Matt I am sorry if you thought that I was trying to personally attack you or Danny in anyway... I never meant to do that... We have wrestled on a lot of the same teams and I know both of your and Danny's kids are great wrestlers... I also know that come state time we will be wrestling your full team... Here is the Problem I have... It just seems to me like all the small clubs out there are going to have a hard time competing with these rules... I know that Columbus might have a lot of people that live here, but wrestling is still a fairly new sport to kids down here... Our club itself is fairly new and we just dont have the numbers... That goes for a lot of rual clubs... I think that it is great that you guys have the numbers you have and I wish we did also. However, this is where the issue lies.. Maybe I am speaking out of line but I think that a lot of the smaller clubs are simply going to stop participating in Team State because they know they cant compete with the larger schools... Maybe they could for 8 or 9 weight classes, but forfiets are going to kill them... The 30 mile rule seems like it has to benefit the Indy area schools because there are more clubs and more kids to chose from. This is what I think needs to happen we all need to sit down and figure out how to make this truely fair. Maybe we make forfiets worth 3 instead of 6. Or maybe we take and average of how many kids are on each team and if your team has 8 and a smaller team has 6 you go by the points of 7 kids. Just some quick ideas I have thoght about and I am sure others have good ones as well. I really think though that you should be able to fill your roster with 4 kids from outside your club from within the state. I dont think you should take spots from kids that already have been wrestling, but if you have empty spots you should be able to fill those. I dont think that you can rob other clubs with these picks, but if you have kids that are not going to be able to wrestle why not get them mat time... That is what this is really all about is getting kids mat time against other good kids. I really believe if we dont do something we are going to make this a battle where small clubs will do something else and that will lessen the amount of possible great youth match ups. I just think it is all of our responsiblity to try and make this better for those who follow. Look foward to see you all at state should be some great wrestling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattyb Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I have removed my thoughts and replys, good luck with this thread. See you all this weekend. Have a Happy New Year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infolady Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Seems to me, a few people are too worried about winning a piece of plastic than developing their own future wrestlers. Why go out and recruit kids, when you have plenty of kids that attend your practices ever week and work hard to get better. Does that trophy make you feel like you?re the best coach in the state if you win? Get real! The ISWA or better called the (Indianapolis State Wrestling Association) needs to come to grips with its self and start promoting the state and not just Indianapolis. These so called state teams we send to out of state tournaments, are made up of almost totally Indy kids, what about the rest of the state kids. Why not a team state ware a card or club charter isn?t required, just bring your elementary kids and wrestle and may the best team win. Remember, its for the kids not the parents. Just to clarify: The Cadet & Junior Folkstyle National Trip is open to the first 32 wrestlers who apply. That being the exception....all other Team Indiana national trips consist of wrestlers who have qualified for the team through the corresponding ISWA state final event, or in the case of Middle School Duals, the IHSWCA Middle School State Finals. Wrestlers placing first have first option and so on depening on the number of teams. I take issue with PTK's statements regarding the ISWA promoting Indy area kids only. If, on the other hand he/she is referring to club teams that travel to national events, that is up to the individual club. As far as ISWA Team Indiana trips, all wrestlers have equal opportunity based on placements at qualifying events. In response to the suggestion of hosting tournaments with no club or card needed, in this day and age, due to liability risks, that is next to impossible. I do not beleive that you are going to find any school or other facility that is willing to host a tournament with 500 or more young wrestlers without any liability insurance for the facility or secondary medical coverage for the wrestlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Trapp Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 After reading some of these replies and having a few conversations, in retrospect, I almost regret posting this topic. The purpose of this post was to create an intellectual conversation about a rule. How it came about, its interpretation, and implementation. I did not create this post to single out any person, group, team, family, or any other collective. I tried to use terms like ?we? & ?us? and even edited the post to reflect the spirit in which I was trying to come across. But somehow we?ve have strayed the other way. We have let our opinions cloud the vision of the bigger picture I want personally & publicly apologize to anyone who was singled out or felt like they were being singled out. That was not intention. And now we have people commenting on how ?silly? this topic is, but still feel the need to participate. Now that?s ?silly?. We have people criticizing parents for wanting the best experiences for their children and sacrificing for them, to take them to tournaments out of state. That is definitely not cool. As we all know, this should be and is about the kids. And there is nothing wrong with having a competitive spirit as long as it is fostered in a positive way. I just wanted to discuss a topic. As I thought that was the purpose of the message board. For individuals to share their views comfortably and confidently free from ridicule. This rule was a decision of a group of people. No one single person calls the shots. Let?s make sure we ?don?t kill the messenger?. Again, I apologize for creating a negative environment. And for any stress, bad emotions, or ill will that this post has created. I love the sport of wrestling. As I?m sure we all do. ??agree to disagree is the nature of men?as long as we still respect each other in the end?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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