Reasons for a class system for team state

[pin2win1]

Can't say I remember how many of us were 3 sporters, i think most of us were 2 sporters, but those of us who played football were busy doing football stuff during the spring and the summer as well.

 

Fact is, it sounds like your students have to choose to either be a great athlete at one sport or a jack of all trades athletes. No shame in doing either, but it is also no reason to make individual wrestling a class sport.

[duck_and_run]

So there wrestlers are better because the parents have more money?  SO why don't we class by the average income?  

 

I would say that Matre Dei probably averages as many multisport atheletes as any other team in the state.  How do they overcome this Y2?

 

Bellmont has everyone but two starters that play multiple sports.  Everyone has to go through it.  You just whine a little louder.  Castles two best wrestlers are three sporters and both have a good shot at a title.  I haven't heard the Castle coach on here saying man if those Welch boys didn't play three sports we may have a shot to be an elete team.  Basically other schools deal with it you cry about it.  

[outsidersview]

So there wrestlers are better because the parents have more money?  SO why don't we class by the average income?  

 

I would say that Matre Dei probably averages as many multisport atheletes as any other team in the state.  How do they overcome this Y2?

 

Bellmont has everyone but two starters that play multiple sports.  Everyone has to go through it.  You just whine a little louder.  Castles two best wrestlers are three sporters and both have a good shot at a title.  I haven't heard the Castle coach on here saying man if those Welch boys didn't play three sports we may have a shot to be an elete team.  Basically other schools deal with it you cry about it.  

wahoo for DNR. even though it wont help a whole lot  ;D

[duck_and_run]

Thanks outsiderview.  Occasionally I throw a good one out there. 

[pin2win1]

I wahooed DNR, thats amazing!

[Y2CJ41]

Can't say I remember how many of us were 3 sporters, i think most of us were 2 sporters, but those of us who played football were busy doing football stuff during the spring and the summer as well.

 

Fact is, it sounds like your students have to choose to either be a great athlete at one sport or a jack of all trades athletes. No shame in doing either, but it is also no reason to make individual wrestling a class sport.

It is bigger than just being a "jack of all trades" as you put it.  At Garrett we probably have about 125 male athletes in the school.  We have about 550 students with 275 being boys.  The ones that are not athletes either can't play because of academics or physical issues.  The others do not have the will to participate in athletics or are in other activities like band.

 

Take those 125 athletes across 8 male sports, three in the fall, two in the winter and three in the spring.  If we rely on single sport athletes, we are in deep trouble as an athletic program, that would mean an average of 15 athletes per team.  On top of that there are probably 20 good athletes in the school that will make an impact on every team they play on.  These are kids like Zac McCray who is a two-way starter in football, all-state wrestler, and probably a multiple event runner in track.  Or Bryce Schendel who is a two-way starter in football, all-state in football, and a starter on the baseball team.  Or Geoff Getts who is a two-way starter in football, 20+ match winner in wrestling and all-state discus.  At Mishawaka, when the baseball team loses a Bryce Schendel they have five other kids just as good to replace him, at Garrett that is not even close to the case.  Do you see how an athletic program would be decimated at a small school if all the coaches were hording their athletes?  Do you realize once one coach starts doing it, others start doing it then the whole athletic program goes down the drain?

 

Like I said it is a different dynamic at a small school.  If we horde some athletes, we might have a good team this year, but next year we might only have 10 kids on the team.  

[Y2CJ41]

So there wrestlers are better because the parents have more money?  SO why don't we class by the average income? 

 

I would say that Matre Dei probably averages as many multisport atheletes as any other team in the state.  How do they overcome this Y2?

 

Bellmont has everyone but two starters that play multiple sports.  Everyone has to go through it.  You just whine a little louder.  Castles two best wrestlers are three sporters and both have a good shot at a title.  I haven't heard the Castle coach on here saying man if those Welch boys didn't play three sports we may have a shot to be an elete team.  Basically other schools deal with it you cry about it. 

With money comes a lot of nice things, such as the ability to pay for wrestling shoes or pay for food to put on their table.  40% of the students at Garrett are on free or reduced lunches, meaning their families have trouble putting food on the table.  If they have trouble putting food on the table, they are going to have trouble buying wrestling shoes or football cleats or heck even putting needed clothing on the backs of their kids.  Money makes a difference.  If you really can't see this then there is no hope for you.  If you don't realize there is a difference between when 100% of the families can pay over $4,000 a year just go to a school and when 40% at another school do not have $1.50 for their kid's lunch then you really have some deep, deep issues.

 

Only three state champions this year were multiple sport athletes and none of them play a spring sport.  Nuff said there Mr. Factoid!

 

[outsidersview]

Thanks outsiderview.  Occasionally I throw a good one out there. 

Ha thing is I like most of your stuff.. Its bold and amusing

[Y2CJ41]

wahoo for DNR. even though it wont help a whole lot  ;D

I am glad you see no difference in a school where 100% of the families can afford $4,200+ a year for a high school education and a school where 40% of the families can't come up with the $7.50 for their kid to eat lunch that week.

[pin2win1]

Umm, you think Mishawaka is stocked with athletes? Really? Tell me, what sport is Mishawaka known for besides wrestling? Football might make some consistent noise soon. However, in my day, Mishawaka did not have a ton of great athletes. Infact, i am not sure the last time Mishawaka had a team outside of wrestling make it to state. Heck, I would be willing to state that over the last 10 years, Mishawaka's wrestling team has won more NIC titles than all the other boys sports combined. Heck you might as well go back 20 years, I think the cavemen have about 16 NIC titles in wrestling in that time. And without doing the research, I would be willing to guess Misahwaka has less than that in all other boys sports. Mishawaka, is not loaded with a bunch of athletes that can step up to fill the shoes of a lost star.

 

That being said, I understand that as a whole the wrestling teams will not be the greatest, because very few wrestlers are going to choose wrestling only. I can understand the issue of that at smaller schools. That is why I am very in favor of having a classed team state but a non classed individual state. With individual wrestling, the success the person is largely up to the individual wrestler.

[duck_and_run]

What are you talking about?  Every school I mentioned does not horde their atheletes.  They also do not cry about wrestlers in multiple sports.  All the wrestlers I mentioned also find mat time in the spring and summer.  Yeah it can get busy but they still do it.  

 

You cry about Garrett and whine about resources, but don't you have a regional training center at your school?  Everything you talk about your a hippocrit with.  Grow up be a man, your just not as good a coach as a Trent McCormick or Mike Gobel.  

 

Money can be a factor.  There are tons of poverty stricken big schools as well.  You act like your the only one dealing with any of this.  Truth is big and small schools deal with it.

[pin2win1]

Grow up be a man, your just not as good a coach as a Trent McCormick or Mike Gobel. 

 

In all fairness, Who is as good as mike Gobel?

[outsidersview]

I am glad you see no difference in a school where 100% of the families can afford $4,200+ a year for a high school education and a school where 40% of the families can't come up with the $7.50 for their kid to eat lunch that week.

1. FYI 100 percent of the families cannot pay 4,200 a year.  If i knew how many got financial aid to get into MD I would tell you. They keep that stuff confidential.  I sure know its more than your thinking though. If you could look at the financial aid list im sure we would all be suprised how many families recieve assistance. Times are hard.  

2. I understand the situation at you school you have obviously vouched and consistently posted about it so I have no other choice. It has all come down to this. Wrestling could be the way to change your school around. Your going to have to make the best of what you have, suck it up, and if you guys have success, you will have kids who grow up with nothing and think hey, I could make a name for myself with wrestling here. Money makes things EASIER, but it does not change a kids work ethic or passion for the sport.

[Y2CJ41]

Umm, you think Mishawaka is stocked with athletes? Really? Tell me, what sport is Mishawaka known for besides wrestling? Football might make some consistent noise soon. However, in my day, Mishawaka did not have a ton of great athletes. Infact, i am not sure the last time Mishawaka had a team outside of wrestling make it to state. Heck, I would be willing to state that over the last 10 years, Mishawaka's wrestling team has won more NIC titles than all the other boys sports combined. Heck you might as well go back 20 years, I think the cavemen have about 16 NIC titles in wrestling in that time. And without doing the research, I would be willing to guess Misahwaka has less than that in all other boys sports. Mishawaka, is not loaded with a bunch of athletes that can step up to fill the shoes of a lost star.

You have 850 boys in the school, you have a lot of athletes to choose from.  Garrett has 550 TOTAL students.  Trust me you have a lot more athletes to choose from.  Obviously numbers do not make sense to you, so I will try to make this as simple as possible, more students mean more athletes to choose from.  Mishawaka has many sectional titles in other sports just from perusing the IHSAA site.  The other sports might not be at the elite level like the wrestling team, but they still have good teams in other sports. 

 

That being said, I understand that as a whole the wrestling teams will not be the greatest, because very few wrestlers are going to choose wrestling only. I can understand the issue of that at smaller schools. That is why I am very in favor of having a classed team state but a non classed individual state. With individual wrestling, the success the person is largely up to the individual wrestler.

You still don't get the bigger picture.  I will try putting it this way.

Zac McCray- all-state wrestler, good athlete

Geoff Getts- all-state discuss, good athlete

 

As a wrestling coach if I tell Zac, he shouldn't play football to concentrate on wrestling he might do that, so now our football team loses a two-way starter and all-conference linebacker.  They are in trouble without him on the field. 

 

If the track coach goes to Geoff, hey don't wrestle or play football to help your chances of going DI in track, we lose a two-way and all-state lineman in football and a 20+ match winner in wrestling.  Now the wrestling team goes from being 23-5 on the year to being 18-10 or worse.  One kid makes that much difference to a team at a small school.  Add to that the football team suffers greatly on the line without a 260lbs all-state guard now.

 

Trust me, both those athletes want to succeed beyond belief, they are two EXTREMELY hard workers and very coachable.  These two could definitely be better at their favorite sport if they did not participate in the other two sports, but they realize they are NEEDED on these other teams.  They aren't wanted, they are NEEDED for the success of those teams.  At Mishawaka, Zac isn't needed for the football team because a 170lbs, 5'6" linebacker isn't going to do much.  Geoff won't be needed on the wrestling team because they will have a wrestler who has wrestled since middle school or earlier.  That is the difference, these athletes are NEEDED for the other teams to be even close to competitive.  There is no other way to put it, it is two different worlds and Mishawaka and Garrett.  It is a night and day comparison when comparing the team and INDIVIDUAL.

[outsidersview]

one more thing Y2, life sucks and its not going to get any easier. Your situation is tough at Garrett but you going to have to make the most of what you have and continue to build good work ethic and attitude and stay on the positive track of things . Take small steps at a time in the positive direction and eventually you will get there. Its always good to see the underdog come out on top. And it will feel that much better when you do because you worked that much harder. Probably the greatest thing about wrestling is when you have put forth the upmost effort and it pays off. Its a personal thing and there is no better feeling.

[Y2CJ41]

1. FYI 100 percent of the families cannot pay 4,200 a year.  If i knew how many got financial aid to get into MD I would tell you. They keep that stuff confidential.  I sure know its more than your thinking though. If you could look at the financial aid list im sure we would all be suprised how many families recieve assistance. Times are hard. 

I guarantee every student there has enough money for lunch this week.  

 

2. I understand the situation at you school you have obviously vouched and consistently posted about it so I have no other choice. It has all come down to this. Wrestling could be the way to change your school around. Your going to have to make the best of what you have, suck it up, and if you guys have success, you will have kids who grow up with nothing and think hey, I could make a name for myself with wrestling here. Money makes things EASIER, but it does not change a kids work ethic or passion for the sport.

We have a fine program right now at Garrett, there is no "sucking it up" about it.  I am happy with where the program is right now, but not even close to satisfied.  Our athletic program is also very strong with many competitive teams in all sports.  Money makes a difference, especially when you are comparing people who pay $4,000 a year for something they can get for $150 a year(book rental fees at a public school).  

 

What are you talking about?  Every school I mentioned does not horde their atheletes.  They also do not cry about wrestlers in multiple sports.  All the wrestlers I mentioned also find mat time in the spring and summer.  Yeah it can get busy but they still do it. 

How many are three sport athletes?  How many play a spring sport?  How many of those schools have 11 of their 14 starters as three sport athletes?  

You cry about Garrett and whine about resources, but don't you have a regional training center at your school?  Everything you talk about your a hippocrit with.  Grow up be a man, your just not as good a coach as a Trent McCormick or Mike Gobel. 

I never said I was as good of a coach as those two.  

 

Money can be a factor.  There are tons of poverty stricken big schools as well.  You act like your the only one dealing with any of this.  Truth is big and small schools deal with it.

It is honestly sad how stupid you are sometimes.  The money issue was in regard to Garrett vs. Mater Dei and the differences in the school systems.  Of course you aren't smart enough to see the differences, so it is not worth it to discuss it with you.

[duck_and_run]

Pointless to even bring valid points up to you Y2.  All you do is not listen and put up the same post.  I think everyone understands you have several multiple sport atheletes.  I also think you should understand that when big schools have multisport wrestlers they don't whine about it.  Also there are several great wrestlers that are multisport atheletes.  Its not like if you play multiple sports your can't get mat time.  It is also not like that if you have multiple sport atheletes that you don't have a shot to be a championship level wrestler.  

 

Just look at the Welch boys.  Their situation is no different then anyone elses on your team.  They dont cry about it they just work hard and become successful. 

Why does it matter how many multiple sport atheletes you have.  There were 6 #1 ranked wrestlers that wrestled multiple sports, 6#2 ranked wrestlers that wrestled multiple sports, and a good deal of top 5 ranked.  There is absolutly no correlation between playing multiple sports and wrestling success.  WHy can't you understand that.

   

 

[Y2CJ41]

one more thing Y2, life sucks and its not going to get any easier. Your situation is tough at Garrett but you going to have to make the most of what you have and continue to build good work ethic and attitude and stay on the positive track of things . Take small steps at a time in the positive direction and eventually you will get there. Its always good to see the underdog come out on top. And it will feel that much better when you do because you worked that much harder. Probably the greatest thing about wrestling is when you have put forth the upmost effort and it pays off. Its a personal thing and there is no better feeling.

No matter the system in place, myself and the rest of the coaching staff and wrestlers will work hard and try to produce top wrestlers and good kids.  That would NEVER change in a classed or non-classed system.  The thing is I want more athletes to experience wrestling than are currently doing so, not only at my school, but in schools across the state and nation.  Honestly, Garrett is doing quite well right now in this system and this class wrestling issue is not for my personal gain, but for the gain of the numerous small schools that are not able to experience what we are experiencing.  

 

I see too many teams struggling because the system does not promote growth at the small school level.  Once a small school team loses success it is extremely difficult to build it back up.  

 

Class wrestling will not change people's work ethic, determination and will to win.  It will give more wrestlers the opportunity for glory in this great sport and give them lifelong memories that they can share and hopefully pass on to future wrestlers.    

[outsidersview]

I would GUARANTEE not all students have lunch money I know this first hand. Look, im not comparing the poverty of MD and Garrett because there are wealthy familys at MD. But its not a ''every family has no problem with money'' kind of thing. Theres a majority of kids who really can't afford it but they go there for the Education and family tradition.

[Y2CJ41]

Pointless to even bring valid points up to you Y2.  All you do is not listen and put up the same post.  I think everyone understands you have several multiple sport atheletes.  I also think you should understand that when big schools have multisport wrestlers they don't whine about it.  Also there are several great wrestlers that are multisport atheletes.  Its not like if you play multiple sports your can't get mat time.  It is also not like that if you have multiple sport atheletes that you don't have a shot to be a championship level wrestler.  

Just as you will only address a few teams out of 309 you fail to look at the big picture.  Open your eyes young lad.  Why won't you answer my question are you afraid the truth will hurt you so you won't even research it?

 

Fact: 3 state champions played more than one sport

Fact: None play a spring sport

 

Fact: 8 state runner-ups played more than one sport

Fact: 2 play a spring sport

 

So if two kids can do it, I am sure that means EVERYONE of them can right?  Of course you won't acknowledge these facts, but oh well, it was worth a try.

 

Just look at the Welch boys.  Their situation is no different then anyone elses on your team.  They dont cry about it they just work hard and become successful.

Are you spying on me again, how did you know I was crying?  I am scared that you are peeping in my window, I am glad my doors are locked.

Why does it matter how many multiple sport atheletes you have.

Do we have to go over this every single day with you?  

 

 There were 6 #1 ranked wrestlers that wrestled multiple sports, 6#2 ranked wrestlers that wrestled multiple sports, and a good deal of top 5 ranked.  There is absolutly no correlation between playing multiple sports and wrestling success.  WHy can't you understand that.

See my facts above, but since they are not helping your argument you will ignore them, I understand.

[duck_and_run]

If your not out for Garretts own personal gain why did you post this a while back:

 

"I believe that my kids work just as hard as the football, baseball, basketball and volleyball teams in our school, if not harder.  I feel we have a lot better team than those teams, yet they get to compete on a level playing field against schools their own size.  I would like the kids to have that same opportunity in wrestling.  According to the Genius Ratings we are the 31 out of 309 best school in the state in wrestling.  Our boys basketball team is ranked 309 out of 416 in the state and have a shot at winning sectional.  Does that seem fair to you?  It surely doesn't to me."

 

2 things wrong with this post

#1 you imply that classless wrestling would have allowed for you to get a sectional title which is not the case witko(2a) beat you.

#2 you are basically saying you are out for Garretts own personal gain.

[Y2CJ41]

I would GUARANTEE not all students have lunch money I know this first hand. Look, im not comparing the poverty of MD and Garrett because there are wealthy familys at MD. But its not a ''every family has no problem with money'' kind of thing. Theres a majority of kids who really can't afford it but they go there for the Education and family tradition.

Maybe I am wrong about the 100% part, but you and I both know the financial situation of the families at Garrett and Mater Dei are worlds apart.  As with the atmosphere as far as learning and the type of students at each school.  Those differences make two schools with a common number of students very different from eachother with the only common link being the number of students.

[pin2win1]

Y2, your arguement would hold grounds if more students directly resulted in more athletes. But you also have to remember, the bigger the school the more activities outside of athletics there are to steal them away. You also fail to understand that in larger areas there are probably more things for kids to do than in areas where there are smaller schools that take kids away from playing sports. I will have to look in a yearbook and see how many "athletes" we had. My guess is that out of our 800 boys in hs, 200 or so may have actually competed in sports. Most of my friends from hs did not play sports.

 

Fact is, Mishawaka also can not afford to tell its wrestlers that you can't play other sports. Where would Mishawaka have been in football this year if they would have told Christian Lentz, or Travis Thomas, or Tyler Reihnoel not to play football. My guess is Penn would have won atleast one of the two meetings and definately the sectional match up. So yeah, even in the large schools the best athletes are NEEDED to play multiple sports for success in them. Not wanted, but NEEDED.

 

You also fail to realize that my old school is in the same conference as a school over twice its size. Yet you here no complaining from me that they are twice my schools size. You also never heard our football coaches complaining about it. Infact despite Penn having enough for 2 full Frosh teams and more than likely over twice as many jv/varsity kids for football, we were always reminded that every play was 11 vs 11, not 1600 vs 3200. Fact is, I understand your frustration. I played sports against a school that had a much larger pool to choose from. Did it help them? Sure I bet it helps some, but never was that an acceptable excuse to the athletes or the coaches! To the community? well yes. But the athletes and coaches ignored it and worked as hard as they could, went out and played as hard as they could, and we never got "recognition" for our hard work despite playing a school twice our size, and guess what? We survived.

 

that being said, how many boys sectional titles has Mishawaka won the last 20 years or so outside of wrestling lets look

baseball: 2

basketball: 0

CC: 3

football:4 (3 of those years Misahwaka and Penn were in seperate sectionals and only played eachother at semi-state)

Golf: 0

Soccer:0

Swimming: 0

Tennis: 0

Track: 1

Total:10

 

Total State Apperances by Mishawaka in wrestling, 11. that is one more state apperance for wrestling than sectional titles in all other sports. Plus that is with 5 less years of team state wrestling. Yep they have many sectonal titles in other sports.

 

 

[duck_and_run]

No your the one who can not comprehend the facts.  I do not care how many multisport atheletes Garrett has.  I proved by that study that it does not matter if you are a multisport athelete, because there are several multisport atheletes that were top notch kids.

 

Do you see what I am saying.  I am saying my study shows that multisport atheletes and wrestling success have no correlation.  

[Y2CJ41]

If your not out for Garretts own personal gain why did you post this a while back:

 

"I believe that my kids work just as hard as the football, baseball, basketball and volleyball teams in our school, if not harder.  I feel we have a lot better team than those teams, yet they get to compete on a level playing field against schools their own size.  I would like the kids to have that same opportunity in wrestling.  According to the Genius Ratings we are the 31 out of 309 best school in the state in wrestling.  Our boys basketball team is ranked 309 out of 416 in the state and have a shot at winning sectional.  Does that seem fair to you?  It surely doesn't to me."

I am out for the gain of all small schools that are in a similar position as Garrett.  I only know of Garrett's situation because I have yet to be cloned or invent a tellatransporter.

 

2 things wrong with this post

#1 you imply that classless wrestling would have allowed for you to get a sectional title which is not the case witko(2a) beat you.

Huh?  Where did I say classless wrestling would have allowed us to earn a sectional title?  

 

#2 you are basically saying you are out for Garretts own personal gain.

I am naming a personal experience and I want my wrestling athletes to be able to compete on the same level as their peers in football, basketball, volleyball and baseball.  The gain for Garrett and other small schools in similar situations would be good for the sport.  I am sorry that I mention personal experiences that I have seen firsthand.  I guess I can just go off of hearsay and made up information like you and AJ.