wildcatcountry97 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Words or phrases that demonstrate you're a chump and should disqualify you from commenting to the P4P: He was close, He gave him all he could handle, He did well this summer, In my opinion, got defeated in a close and tough match.... (Too many more to type) P4P is always a tough one to sort out. I like the idea of it creating discussion. However, with 7 of the 10 wrestlers being under 140lbs, and full of CP kids, It appears to be fairly inaccurate. I certainly want to hear what everyone thinks, but this business of "so and so lost, but it was close, but he did well this summer, and would have won last year but was hurt, so he should be ranked here or there... JEEEZ) Come up with a real argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I would say that the best wrestlers "pound for pound" are the guys who have the best national credentials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Words or phrases that demonstrate you're a chump and should disqualify you from commenting to the P4P: He was close, He gave him all he could handle, He did well this summer, In my opinion, got defeated in a close and tough match.... (Too many more to type) P4P is always a tough one to sort out. I like the idea of it creating discussion. However, with 7 of the 10 wrestlers being under 140lbs, and full of CP kids, It appears to be fairly inaccurate. I certainly want to hear what everyone thinks, but this business of "so and so lost, but it was close, but he did well this summer, and would have won last year but was hurt, so he should be ranked here or there... JEEEZ) Come up with a real argument. Who above 140 should be on the list? 145 both finalists graduated, 3rd placer on the list 152 both return, one is on the list 160- top 4 graduated 171- returning champ is on the list 189- top 4 graduated 215- champ graduated 285- top 4 graduated From 145lbs+ there are exactly four finalists returning and two of them are on the list. On top of that a 3rd place finisher(former runner-up) also made the list. What more do you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMcMurray Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Who above 140 should be on the list? 145 both finalists graduated, 3rd placer on the list 152 both return, one is on the list 160- top 4 graduated 171- returning champ is on the list 189- top 4 graduated 215- champ graduated 285- top 4 graduated From 145lbs+ there are exactly four finalists returning and two of them are on the list. On top of that a 3rd place finisher(former runner-up) also made the list. What more do you want? Darn it Y2, now they need something else to complain about.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup45 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 This is my opinion and only mine, the state of Indiana is really starting to put its self on the wrestling map pound for pound we are compeating with some of the top states for titles now as far as the state level each and everyone of the individuals named along with many others have the right to be on the list but as far as I feel "LET'S GET IT ON' and have a great year there is going to upsets and history making matches so lets all have fun and wish all who wrestle GOO LUCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcatcountry97 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Hey Sean and Y2, let me explain. (Being nice, not sarcastic as usual!) I would not hang my hat too much on the state placement as a good guide for a pound for pound list, because as a general rule of thumb the older kids get, the more they weigh. Thus, the upper weights will usually be graduating a lot more guys, while the lower weights will be returning. I don't profess to know the stats, I'm sure someone does!, but i would imagine that the upper weights are by average older kids. Also, a younger guy will have a lot more difficult time competing at say 189 than he would at 112. So does that make the 189 kid less of a p4p guy? Example: A kid gets 5 as a freshman at 189 or gets 2nd at 112 as a freshman. By this "state placement" standard the 112 kid would be tougher P4P all else being equal. Like I said, I actually like this discussion a lot and enjoy hearing the thoughts. That is just my humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanMcMurray Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Hey Sean and Y2, let me explain. (Being nice, not sarcastic as usual!) I would not hang my hat too much on the state placement as a good guide for a pound for pound list, because as a general rule of thumb the older kids get, the more they weigh. Thus, the upper weights will usually be graduating a lot more guys, while the lower weights will be returning. I don't profess to know the stats, I'm sure someone does!, but i would imagine that the upper weights are by average older kids. Also, a younger guy will have a lot more difficult time competing at say 189 than he would at 112. So does that make the 189 kid less of a p4p guy? Example: A kid gets 5 as a freshman at 189 or gets 2nd at 112 as a freshman. By this "state placement" standard the 112 kid would be tougher P4P all else being equal. Like I said, I actually like this discussion a lot and enjoy hearing the thoughts. That is just my humble opinion. I understand where you are coming from with the age factor, but here is how i look at it.. If i weigh in @ 160 lbs and so does another kid... regardless of his age, we can bang! This is HIGH SCHOOL wrestling... Weight is the only dividing line. If you weigh the same as someone, don't complain about their age.. If their age does bother you, wrestle freestyle. Do you suppose we should compare a larger guy's regional placement or placement among kids his age? Doesn't make any sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Wrestling Fanpage Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I understand where you are coming from with the age factor, but here is how i look at it.. If i weigh in @ 160 lbs and so does another kid... regardless of his age, we can bang! This is HIGH SCHOOL wrestling... Weight is the only dividing line. If you weigh the same as someone, don't complain about their age.. If their age does bother you, wrestle freestyle. Do you suppose we should compare a larger guy's regional placement or placement among kids his age? Doesn't make any sense... Good Point Sean, I think if a kid makes Varsity as a freshman 152 and above that is pretty exciting in it's self then you shoot for higher goals I was very proud of my son doing well at189 as a true freshman he wrestled all freshman season 14years old, I was as much proud of him making it to semi- state as a freshman, 103lbers prrobably have more pressure on them to making it to state there freshman year. Now this year is a different story ,with a year behind him his goal has now improved to being at Conseco and placing. The kids know what they have to do, it is what it is. I think once a kid reaches his soph season all the age factors go out the window if you are a seasoned wrestler. That is just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 Hey Sean and Y2, let me explain. (Being nice, not sarcastic as usual!) I would not hang my hat too much on the state placement as a good guide for a pound for pound list, because as a general rule of thumb the older kids get, the more they weigh. Thus, the upper weights will usually be graduating a lot more guys, while the lower weights will be returning. I don't profess to know the stats, I'm sure someone does!, but i would imagine that the upper weights are by average older kids. Also, a younger guy will have a lot more difficult time competing at say 189 than he would at 112. So does that make the 189 kid less of a p4p guy? Example: A kid gets 5 as a freshman at 189 or gets 2nd at 112 as a freshman. By this "state placement" standard the 112 kid would be tougher P4P all else being equal. Like I said, I actually like this discussion a lot and enjoy hearing the thoughts. That is just my humble opinion. There aren't many placers that are coming back at 145lbs + and I would definitely take a top two placer at 130 over a 5-8th placer at 189 for example. Here is a breakdown of returning placers at each weight 145lbs+. 145- 3, 5, 6 152- 1, 2, 7, 8 160- 7 171- 1, 5 189- 3, 7 215- 2, 3, 8 285- 5 That is 16 returning placers in 7 weights, so just over two per weight. Thats not very much to look work with. All of the bolded people got votes, so out of 16 returning placers there were 6 people earning votes. You really don't have much to work with at the upper weights. All of the wrestlers listed have had some success at the national level. These aren't just based off of in-state success. 1. Jason Tsirtsis- Crown Point Super 32 2nd, Fargo 2nd 2. Sean McMurray- Portage Fargo 5th 3. Brandon Wright- Warren Central Super 32 2nd, Fargo champ 4. Frankie Porras- Hobart Fargo 8th? 5. Michael Duckworth- Union County NHSCA placer 6. Eric Roach- Crown Point Multiple time national placer 7. Anthony Hawkins- Crown Point NHSCA 3rd 8. Cody Phillips- Union County Fargo placer 9. Sammy Bennett- Anderson Highland NHSCA placer 10. Brenden Campbell- New Castle Fargo 7th? The next two in the voting were Atwood and Stahl who both have also had success on the national level. Most of these were at age group related national events, so if a younger kid is an upper weight and has success at the national level they will get votes. I'm really curious to who you think doesn't belong on this list and who should replace them. The difference between 8th-12th is about one vote, so its not as cut and dry as you would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Wrestling Fanpage Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I would have to say the top three would Tsirtsis 1, Wright 2, and Roach 3, but you guy's are the experts. I would have to say Josh Kieffer should be right there with them the Hawkins match could of went either way and Josh has alway's done well at the National level. It is a shame though going to the National tournaments cost so much if you have three wrestlers you more than likely will not be able to send them all to the top national tour. like Fargo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 Kieffer has not been to any national events that I can recall offhand. I have been to Fargo the past three years and haven't seen him. Not sure about the NHSCA meets, but I'm fairly certain he hasn't gone their either, along with the Super 32 or Disney Duals. We had nine people voting this time around and usually we have 10-12, more people will voice their opinion as the season goes on and I may as for a few more voters. I would put McMurray over Roach mainly because of state titles, both are extremely equal as far as national success with Roach having a little advantage. McMurray's success has also been achieved while jumping multiple weight classes. Its all a matter of opinion and that is why we try to get more than one opinion as there is never a clear cut answer to this poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumthintoprove135 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 With the results that y2 has given us and so far what i get out of this for criteria is age, low weight, national success then y isnt wright first instead of tsirtsis because he is older, lower weight and has better national success to me it seems he has better credentials unless them two have wrestled recently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 Last year Tsirtsis beat Wright at freestyle state 2-0, 6-0. Each person that votes has their own reasoning for making their list the way they do. Some, like me, use national results more heavily and others use in-state results more heavily. Its a matter of how you want to view the list and that is why we have multiple people voting on it to even things out. I never realized how complicated this was to some people. I will state this one last time. There is a panel of voters(nine in this poll) that listed their top 10 wrestlers pound for pound in the state. They all came up with their top 10 in different manners, some by weighing in-state results, some by weighing national results. This is the end result of the voting procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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