WeeMom Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 On the contrary - I think both boys were exactly where they should have been. Neither cut weight or had to watch what they ate all season long! While most other kids in these weight classes were killing themselves to make weight, even with all the allowances at the end of the season - our 103 and 112 pounders got to eat and wrestle healthy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfan2001 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 i thought high school sports were to help teach some lessons to our children. working as a member of a team to accomplish a goal is a very important lesson for everyone unless you live in a cave. in all sports you "do the best you can do" at your spot, weight class, or event. this helps the team the most. in wrestling i have seen teams actually move wrestlers to other weight classes to help the team. i have never seen any wrestler complain. am i wrong? is there a bunch of wrestlers mad because they moved from their normal weight to help the team? if staying at their normal weight helps the team more that is what happens. individual accomplishments are important , but i don't believe they are more important than team work. Some may have higher goals than others. Some may train 12 months while others train 3 months a year. I know of one case where a kid who was the only one on the team that trained 12 months a year suffered a season ending injury after his coach bumped him up. If they are all giving the same effort then treat them equally but if they are not it's not fair to the kid that works in the off-season to not be placed in a spot that he's earned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devildog47959 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 in wrestling i have seen teams actually move wrestlers to other weight classes to help the team. i have never seen any wrestler complain. am i wrong? That is very true.. i used to bump up from 189 to 215 and HWT to get our TEAM some extra points as would the 171 to 189 and a few other weight classes too. You want to win your individual matches but you also want to win the TEAM MEET. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryopinionated Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 manvswild1 makes some very good points.... They would, however, be much easier to contemplate if he didn't spell so many words incorrectly ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 WeeMom Cutting weight is not real advisable at this age. Respectfully Oscar "What are You?" -- "I'm Batman !!!" from the Movie Batman Begins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeMom Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Oscar: I'm not a proponent of weight cutting either. I think it's dangerous... and it doesn't necessarily give someone the competitive edge they were looking for. Even though Andrew was light compared to some other 12 pounders he wrestled this year, he ended up having more stamina to complete the tough matches. Some of the bigger kids he wrestled seemed to be "true" 19 or 25 pounders. If Andrew managed to get to the 3rd period w/ them, those kids were usually huffin' puffin', nose bleedin' and pukin'. However - if Andrew can cut a FEW pounds by cutting out junk food, drinking only water, and only eating SINGLE portion sizes at his meals... then by all means, I don't have a problem with that. bigfan2001: "Nice story...but if he had a realistic shot at being a 103 lb. state champ I bet he would have challenged his teammate for the 103 spot." Well... I couldn't say for sure. He's not there yet. But, my guess would be, if he hadn't been to State by the time his Senior year rolled around - every weight class lighter than him better watch out. I'm sure he'd be willing to challenge a teammate if that were the case. So - yes - there might be an instance where the individual part of it plays more of a factor than the team.... your Senior year! ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Judging by the favortism towards individual success, I can now see why only a few teams dominate year in and year out. Personally, I really don't see any major differences between wrestling and football/basketball. In traditional team sports, every individual has an objective to take care of in order for the team to succeed. For football, it could be an o-lineman with a blocking assignment, wide receiver with running a route, or a d-lineman plugging a hole. In basketball, it could be a guard bringing the ball up court, a power forward with a block out, or someone creating a screen. In wrestling, the concept is the same. Every individual has an objective to take care of in order for the team to succeed. Alot of the times the objective is simple and basic, just win baby. But there are many cases when two teams match up very well. So the objective for a certain wrestler (whose inferior to his opponent) could be to give up the minimum amount of bonus points that he can. Or if you have the superior wrestler, his objective is to get the fall. How many matches were determined by bonus points at team state this year? There could be situations that call for wrestlers to bump up or switch weight classes because it could best serve the team. This is something that people with individualistic mindsets don't account for. I also hear that wrestling is an individual sport because not everyone on a team wrestles in the off-season. I have a hard time understanding this notion because I bet there are a ton football/basketball players who don't participate in their sports in the off-season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 WeeMom You said,"So-yes -there might be an instance where the individual part of it plays more of a factor than the team... your senior year." Thanks for your support. You are returning to the good side young Jedi--something Yoda might have said to Luke Skywalker. Yoda-- just another superhero and a master of great wisdom. Him and Oscar would have been great buddies. May the Force be with You ! as always........ Respectfully Oscar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeMom Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 You are returning to the good side young Jedi Funny! Let me stop to change the crystals in my light saber blade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfcfanatic Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Judging by the favortism towards individual success, I can now see why only a few teams dominate year in and year out. Personally, I really don't see any major differences between wrestling and football/basketball. In traditional team sports, every individual has an objective to take care of in order for the team to succeed. For football, it could be an o-lineman with a blocking assignment, wide receiver with running a route, or a d-lineman plugging a hole. In basketball, it could be a guard bringing the ball up court, a power forward with a block out, or someone creating a screen. In wrestling, the concept is the same. Every individual has an objective to take care of in order for the team to succeed. Alot of the times the objective is simple and basic, just win baby. But there are many cases when two teams match up very well. So the objective for a certain wrestler (whose inferior to his opponent) could be to give up the minimum amount of bonus points that he can. Or if you have the superior wrestler, his objective is to get the fall. How many matches were determined by bonus points at team state this year? There could be situations that call for wrestlers to bump up or switch weight classes because it could best serve the team. This is something that people with individualistic mindsets don't account for. I also hear that wrestling is an individual sport because not everyone on a team wrestles in the off-season. I have a hard time understanding this notion because I bet there are a ton football/basketball players who don't participate in their sports in the off-season. Wahoo to you! Here are the top 15 schools with the number of qualifiers they have had in the last 10 years: Mater Dei 86 Lawrence North 62 Mishawaka 59 Portage 58 Bellmont 57 Cathedral 52 Perry 45 Warren Central 38 Merrillville 36 Hobart 36 Franklin 36 Yorktown 35 Bloomington South 35 Crown Point 34 Beech Grove 34 What do all of these schools have in common? They all put the team first! They do what they must to win as a team. Something must be wrong with the system if we should put the individual first. Shouldn't these teams be at the bottom of the list if we put the individual first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeMom Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Out of curiousity - what would a coach do to emphasize the "team" aspect? Obviously there is a link between team success and individual. As you have pointed out, many of those schools w/ the most individual qualifiers are also recognizable as teams that are seen time and time again advancing to Team State competitions. What is the link? I can't imagine it's coincidence. Anyone have examples? I heard through the grapevine that, for example, that Yorktown put a lot of work into teambuilding last summer, in order to keep the team on fire for Disney Duals. (Paintball and other social activities.) I can imagine without this kind of planning and dedication, you would have a lot of burnout, even from kids who are passionate about wrestling. But somehow... they made it work.... and it paid off! What else would work? Approaches in the wrestling room, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share Posted March 27, 2009 You beat me to the punch these are great teams yes and the preach a team aspect a lil probably but in the state tournement its all about the individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfan2001 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Judging by the favortism towards individual success, I can now see why only a few teams dominate year in and year out. Personally, I really don't see any major differences between wrestling and football/basketball. In traditional team sports, every individual has an objective to take care of in order for the team to succeed. For football, it could be an o-lineman with a blocking assignment, wide receiver with running a route, or a d-lineman plugging a hole. In basketball, it could be a guard bringing the ball up court, a power forward with a block out, or someone creating a screen. In wrestling, the concept is the same. Every individual has an objective to take care of in order for the team to succeed. Alot of the times the objective is simple and basic, just win baby. But there are many cases when two teams match up very well. So the objective for a certain wrestler (whose inferior to his opponent) could be to give up the minimum amount of bonus points that he can. Or if you have the superior wrestler, his objective is to get the fall. How many matches were determined by bonus points at team state this year? There could be situations that call for wrestlers to bump up or switch weight classes because it could best serve the team. This is something that people with individualistic mindsets don't account for. I also hear that wrestling is an individual sport because not everyone on a team wrestles in the off-season. I have a hard time understanding this notion because I bet there are a ton football/basketball players who don't participate in their sports in the off-season. Wahoo to you! Here are the top 15 schools with the number of qualifiers they have had in the last 10 years: Mater Dei 86 Lawrence North 62 Mishawaka 59 Portage 58 Bellmont 57 Cathedral 52 Perry 45 Warren Central 38 Merrillville 36 Hobart 36 Franklin 36 Yorktown 35 Bloomington South 35 Crown Point 34 Beech Grove 34 What do all of these schools have in common? They all put the team first! They do what they must to win as a team. Something must be wrong with the system if we should put the individual first. Shouldn't these teams be at the bottom of the list if we put the individual first? What I see that they all have in common is each has / had a very well established coach running the program. Anyone that knows Indiana wrestling can look at the list and name the head coach for that school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Who is the coach at: Whitko South Adams West Central Winamac Leo Adams Central Prarie Heights These are some outstanding small school programs. Would wrestling benefit if some of these programs got the statewide recognition that other sports at their schools get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share Posted March 27, 2009 How about more articals about wrestling in papers and different things. Maybe make a bigger deal about conference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 How about more articals about wrestling in papers and different things. Maybe make a bigger deal about conference. I've noticed lots of articles on Triton's and Rochester's basketball team recently. Why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfcfanatic Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Judging by the favortism towards individual success, I can now see why only a few teams dominate year in and year out. Personally, I really don't see any major differences between wrestling and football/basketball. In traditional team sports, every individual has an objective to take care of in order for the team to succeed. For football, it could be an o-lineman with a blocking assignment, wide receiver with running a route, or a d-lineman plugging a hole. In basketball, it could be a guard bringing the ball up court, a power forward with a block out, or someone creating a screen. In wrestling, the concept is the same. Every individual has an objective to take care of in order for the team to succeed. Alot of the times the objective is simple and basic, just win baby. But there are many cases when two teams match up very well. So the objective for a certain wrestler (whose inferior to his opponent) could be to give up the minimum amount of bonus points that he can. Or if you have the superior wrestler, his objective is to get the fall. How many matches were determined by bonus points at team state this year? There could be situations that call for wrestlers to bump up or switch weight classes because it could best serve the team. This is something that people with individualistic mindsets don't account for. I also hear that wrestling is an individual sport because not everyone on a team wrestles in the off-season. I have a hard time understanding this notion because I bet there are a ton football/basketball players who don't participate in their sports in the off-season. Wahoo to you! Here are the top 15 schools with the number of qualifiers they have had in the last 10 years: Mater Dei 86 Lawrence North 62 Mishawaka 59 Portage 58 Bellmont 57 Cathedral 52 Perry 45 Warren Central 38 Merrillville 36 Hobart 36 Franklin 36 Yorktown 35 Bloomington South 35 Crown Point 34 Beech Grove 34 What do all of these schools have in common? They all put the team first! They do what they must to win as a team. Something must be wrong with the system if we should put the individual first. Shouldn't these teams be at the bottom of the list if we put the individual first? What I see that they all have in common is each has / had a very well established coach running the program. Anyone that knows Indiana wrestling can look at the list and name the head coach for that school. BigFan, You kind of made my point though. If these programs all have well established coaches, and these coaches believe in the team aspect, what does that say for coaching just the individual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midget5589 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 i kinda want some kfc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Team ! Team!Team! Team Dual Competition and individual accomplishment in this sport are not, never have been and never will be compatable. They are totally seperate. You will never find 14 high school wrestlers with the dedication to work hard enough to achieve what is required to compete at the collegiate level. So if you desire to compete at the next level it is about the individual and his willingness to work hard enough to move to the next level. The arguement that you need a team to do this is not valid. As in boxing one needs sparing partners and a mat to train on, as well as a weight room and a good pair of running shoes. My sons coaches often refer to these sparing parners as wrestling dummies-- real nice don't you think! I do not. Dual Team competition is fun, Yahoo!!!! and it has its place in the great lessons of life but this begins with individual development first. You Team Builder egomaniacs need to stop feeding this crock to unsuspecting parents and kids. It is ok to promote team but be honest and be fair and stop lieing ,misleading and cheating kids under the false pretense it is for the team. How we blend these two types of competition needs to be tempered so we do not cheat anyone out of opportunities they deserve. Now -- were is that picture of the dead horse!!!! ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 How about more articals about wrestling in papers and different things. Maybe make a bigger deal about conference. I've noticed lots of articles on Triton's and Rochester's basketball team recently. Why is that? Because it's basketball, you know the sport Indiana has grown up on and the 2nd most popular sport in the country. Mater Dei has been the most successful wrestling program for Indiana in the past 20 years. Yet I remember reading a thread about how horrible the coverage the Evansville press gives wrestling. Just going off memory, not sure of the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Team ! Team!Team! Team Dual Competition and individual accomplishment in this sport are not, never have been and never will be compatable. They are totally seperate. You will never find 14 high school wrestlers with the dedication to work hard enough to achieve what is required to compete at the collegiate level. So if you desire to compete at the next level it is about the individual and his willingness to work hard enough to move to the next level. The arguement that you need a team to do this is not valid. As in boxing one needs sparing partners and a mat to train on, as well as a weight room and a good pair of running shoes. My sons coaches often refer to these sparing parners as wrestling dummies-- real nice don't you think! I do not. The individual accomplishments are as separate in football/basketball as in wrestling. What name does it say on the Heisman Trophy this past year, is it Sam Bradford or Oklahoma? What name is on the NBA MVP trophy last year, is it Kobe Bryant or the LA Lakers? And I bet you'll never find 22 football players or 5 basketball players, "with the dedication to work hard enough to achieve what is required to compete at the collegiate level." During my wrestling days, I went to this Ohio high school in the summer to get some mat time, weekly. I remember this basketball player coming in, almost everytime as I did, with only one other person to work on his game. Could've been a coach or his dad, I never bothered to ask. Where was the rest of his teammates? Why was he training by himself, in a traditional team sport? Sounds very similar to how some wrestlers train if you ask me. I bet there are tons of cases like this across the country in traditional team sports. Dual Team competition is fun, Yahoo!!!! and it has its place in the great lessons of life but this begins with individual development first. You Team Builder egomaniacs need to stop feeding this crock to unsuspecting parents and kids. It is ok to promote team but be honest and be fair and stop lieing ,misleading and cheating kids under the false pretense it is for the team. How we blend these two types of competition needs to be tempered so we do not cheat anyone out of opportunities they deserve. Now -- were is that picture of the dead horse!!!! ;D How is it misleading a kid to have him think and work for something that is bigger than just himself? What opportunities would a kid be cheated out of? Ask the Perry Meridian, Mishawaka, Mater Dei wrestlers if they feel cheated or mislead in anyway. Do you even know what egomaniac means? According to thefreedictionary.com, egomanic means obsessive preoccupation with the self. Here's the link, http://www.thefreedictionary.com/egomaniac So now that you know the definition, what's more egomaniac? A. Individuals that are team builders and want others to succeed as well. B. Individuals more worried about themselves and own accomplishments. Basketball and football begins with each individual's development as well. What good would a team be in those sports if none of them had proper basic techniques? I played football and remember getting my butt chewed out when I made mistakes. I also remember coaches pulling me aside when my mechanics were off. Not the team, just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 wcs145 Don't worry no one is going to take the team plaything away. What an arguement! FYI -- Egomaniac--- Bingo !! Darn, this horse just won't die ! Please read my post very carefully and then study my signature quote. I hope this helps you get a clearer picture of why I post these positions. Respectfully Oscar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Oscar, I sent you a pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Out of curiousity - what would a coach do to emphasize the "team" aspect? Obviously there is a link between team success and individual. As you have pointed out, many of those schools w/ the most individual qualifiers are also recognizable as teams that are seen time and time again advancing to Team State competitions. What is the link? I can't imagine it's coincidence. Anyone have examples? I heard through the grapevine that, for example, that Yorktown put a lot of work into teambuilding last summer, in order to keep the team on fire for Disney Duals. (Paintball and other social activities.) I can imagine without this kind of planning and dedication, you would have a lot of burnout, even from kids who are passionate about wrestling. But somehow... they made it work.... and it paid off! What else would work? Approaches in the wrestling room, etc? It starts with you WeeMom. Team = Wrestling Family You have to have a strong community base which begins with just one dedicated parent. That's You !! ;D ;D You need to organize as many people as possible and make wrestling your community pet project. Convince as many people as possible to wrestle all year round. In a word you have to make wrestling "Cool" in you community. Ask the "Italianmom" she is the master of Team Building. Her secret: She cares about kids. And you thought I was against Team. Not True. Only when it turns to manipulation. Again and as Always......... Respectfully Oscar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Facts are stupid things - Ronald Reagan Let's look at this. The Individual State Competition has representation from 140 + communities. It draws 15,000 fans over two days. It draws attention of college recruiters. This allows dedicated athletes the ability to use their sport as a vehicle to get were they want to go, a college education and an opportunity to participate in collegiate athletics. On the other hand Team State Competition has representation from 8 communities in any given year and maybe 32 in the whole pool of teams really competing for this. It draws 7500 concentrated fans and is a lot of fun. It is good ole high school gym on a Friday Night kind of excitement. I don't think college coaches are watching, because they already did that at Conseco. What has more to offer? Which one represents the most people? Which one opens up more opportunities for Kids?. The Team State Competition is just added fun and gives wrestling another avenue of excitement. It is good ! But before this format was added we still crowned a team champion and we still do it today. They call it a "Coaches Trophy" now. What if your team has a down trend and does not have a chance to compete for team honors. Are you going skip the individual tournament? Does any one ever wonder why some teams never seem to have down trends? There is a method to this madness and a lot more than meets the eye. GO Team !!!!!--- but my son is wrestling in college on a near full ride because of his individual accomplishments on the mat and in the classroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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