GrecoCoach
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Everything posted by GrecoCoach
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If the survey is from the NFHS, then it's national, not state.
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The 2nd round of semistate is still flawed. That is where (without an upset) a top 4 wrestler can be eliminated.
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A Sectional or Regional champ who loses first round was beaten by someone who has lost twice and was 4th best at their Sectional/Regional. That automatically puts him behind 4 others, so a 2nd loss isn't necessary. The IHSAA has no sympathy for upsets.
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The only proposal that I think the IHSAA would even consider would be to send 5 from each semistate to state. Here's how it would work. First round losers are out. Quarter final losers have to wait. If the wrestler that beat them wins in the semis and makes the finals, then those 2 ticket round losers will wrestle for 5th during the finals with the winner qualifying for state and the loser (6th) as the alternate. That adds zero time to semistate. 4th & 5th placers will be paired up for first round of state. It will add about 1-1.5 hours at the beginning of state, but it also adds more revenue in the IHSAA's pocket from ticket sales. This is far from perfect, but it does give the "death draw" a chance, and the IHSAA is far more likely to consider it than hearing about wrestlebacks year after year. They always ask "How many times can a guy lose?" The answer to that has to be "twice". Every wrestling tournament in the country is double-elimination. The IHSAA should set up a system where nobody is eliminated after their first post-season loss unless that loss is to somebody who has lost twice (like first round of regionals and semistate). The only exception would be in Sectionals with more than 8 wrestlers, but proper seeding and bye placement can limit that.
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^ This right here. Go to something like this and all this debate is over. Figure out the enrollment cutoff that roughly balances the 3 classes and just set it at that for 4 years (2 enrollment cycles) then realign the cutoffs at that point. Schools will still move up or down, but it is more straightforward and no worries about what to do if a school closes, combines, or adds wrestling.
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New Castle has been like that for as long as I can remember.
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^ This is incorrect. It's the one eliminated by the regional champ. I'm not saying it's the best method. That is just what the IHSAA uses.
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1A Team State Qualification Scores (unofficial through sectional)
GrecoCoach replied to maligned's topic in Past Discussions
If they make it simpler to understand, then they also make it less accurate. They could also make it more accurate, but then only 1 statistics genius in the state (or Europe) would understand it. This is as good of a balance as is possible right now. -
There is a simple way to incorporate fair wrestlebacks that the IHSAA would probably consider. 1st - Sectionals - First round pigtails avoid top seeds. (Why wasn't this implemented state-wide years ago?) 2nd - Semistate - Quarterfinal losers wrestle back to fifth. (Adds about 1 hour, and they've done this before) Top 5 qualify for state. First round of state starts with 4s vs 5s. (Adds about 1.5 hours on Friday night and should increase attendance/$) 3rd - Regionals - The 8-man bracket is really easy to do full wrestlebacks to 3rd. I put this last because I feel it is the least necessary. For example, if you get 2nd at sectionals and lose first round to a 3rd place finisher, then you are behind 1 from your sectional and 3 from the other, so not top 4 anyway. But for simplicity, it would be easy to implement wrestlebacks here. One of the big points to make when proposing to the IHSAA is that they determine the team champions for each level based on the individual placements, so they should want those to be as accurate as possible at every level. Wrestlebacks at regionals and semistate will help determine the team standings. And it will more fairly designate the alternate than the current flawed system. NOTE: Wrestlebacks at state is a separate issue to be discussed/debated. Let's get the path to state fixed first.
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SWINfan, This could cause some venues to need to change. The question that would go along with this plan is... Would you rather keep semistate at the Ford Center or have wrestlebacks? 3/4 of the state would rather have wrestlebacks. It does open up the possibility of finding a more central location for the southern semistate, too. I realize that this plan doesn't have much chance to happen. I'm just thinking of ways that could make the tournament series better.
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Yes, semistates would make less revenue. But regionals would cost less with half the venues & officials. Also, the IHSAA reimburses schools (a little) for semistate which would also save the IHSAA some money. Overall, there wouldn't be much of a change for their finances.
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Mike, I'd love those, but I don't see the IHSAA making either of those changes. They love their random draws for brackets. And even though the NFHS rules allow for showcase matches being last, the IHSAA doesn't think it's very sportsmanlike to admit that some matches are better than others.
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I've been thinking of ways to improve our state series. Things that allow full wrestlebacks without adding extra time. Here are some changes that I came up with that could do that... Sectionals Same 32 locations, full wrestlebacks, change first round pigtails to avoid top seeds. Top 3 advance to regionals Regionals 8 locations, 4 sectionals feed into each one. 12-man bracket with sectional champs getting a 1st round bye (like old semistate brackets). Full wrestlebacks from quarterfinals on. (Those eliminated in first round lost once at sectionals and once at regionals, so still double elimination.) Total of 17 matches per weight class. This makes regionals the longest step of the series, but for most schools, they are closer to their regional site than semistate. Also, regional matches tend to finish faster than semistate matches, which will help the day end sooner. Top 4 advance to semistate (wrestle the 5th place match for true alternate) Semistate Same 4 locations, 2 regionals feed into each one. 8-man bracket (set up like current regionals) with full wrestlebacks. Less wrestlers qualify for semistate, but all get an equal chance to advance to state. The day will be shorter, but that allows more travel time for teams that travel a long distance. Top 4 advance to state (wrestle the 5th place match for true alternate) State No changes.
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The easiest solution is to set up the brackets so no unseeded wrestlers have to wrestle the top seeds first round. This has been done at Sectionals before. Up to 10 teams and nobody has to wrestle a seeded wrestler at all. 11 or 12 teams would only have to face the 6th and 5th seeds, which really sorts out those last seeded spots. Convince all the head coaches in your sectional that it is the fairest for the wrestlers. Should be easy since it’s very logical. If IHSAA complains, just apologize. (Asking permission from Faulkins before is a roll of the dice for what his answer will be that day) The only complaint I’ve ever heard is about team score bonus points that first round. Sectional team titles mean a lot less now than they used to with team state. The years when the first round wasn’t scored, my sectional got permission to set up our brackets this way. I’m disappointed it didn’t become a statewide rule.
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What if taking out the forfeits causes a kid to not have 10 matches? The way it's worded, a kid that's 10-0 with 1 forfeit would only have 9 matches that count toward seeding and not be eligible to get a seed.
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Congrats to the All-Americans! Not sure if this has been discussed, but why did Fargo start with Freestyle before Greco?
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Congrats Coach Cook! Welcome to Fishers.
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Semistate results happen weeks after the regional categories have been finalized. They can't be used as you keep arguing. You also can't objectively evaluate them on hypothetical matches that don't happen with 5th place finishers and swapping regionals. Again, you are judging based on perceived notions of a regional's strength or weakness. I doubt I'll change your mind. Until the IHSAA takes it back over with an all-in format, this is what we have. And it does very well at predicting the top teams for the following year.
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Imagine a regional weight that has the kids ranked 1st-4th in the state and NOBODY else (just forfeits). How difficult was it to advance through that regional? 5-8 are extremely important in determining how difficult it is to advance. All semistate tells you is how well your 4's do against 1's, etc. That is reflected in the semistate scoring and should not impact the regional. There is a means to test the accuracy of the model - look at the results of the following year, which is what it is meant to predict. The creators of this model even went back and tested it on years before team state started and found it's accuracy was very good compared to the following year's results.
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You can't use semistate to accurately evaluate regional depth because the 5th-8th at regional don't compete there. You are over analyzing one small piece of a bigger process. The big picture goal of that process is to predict the top teams for the next year. While not perfect, it is based on data instead of opinions of teams and regions.
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Westfork, You are still incorrectly using semistate data to evaluate the depth/difficulty to advance at the regional level. You are also incorrectly using historical data when only the current season's genius ratings are used to determine the regional category.
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Considering he was the runner-up, it makes sense that his loss was to the 119 lb champ in 1989. Feel free to look it up. HINT: He's kind of a big deal.
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I'm taking a wild guess here... The IHSAA has rules for team sports that limit the number of athletes from one school that can be on travel teams. I've never heard of them applying those rules to individual sports, though. I would think that multiple teams at Disney Duals would be in violation, too.
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"Folkstyle" is really just a general term for a country's own local style/rules. American Folkstyle is what we know but nobody else in the world does. Lots of African and South American countries still have their own folkstyle wrestling that looks very different than anybody else's. A loose example would be sumo wrestling in Japan as their "folkstyle" wrestling, even though they primarily do freestyle in school now. Many countries have gotten rid of their own folkstyles and solely focus on freestyle and greco. Everyone hates things that are different than what they know and grew up doing. A Russian wrestler who has only done freestyle and greco his whole life would be very confused about American folkstyle.
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Might want to pick the mic back up... The original post stated based on high school accomplishments only.
