The JV Problem

[charger.dad]

I think the real concern/complaint that most other people on here have is that they think it gives schools like Penn an unfair advantage over the rest of us who sometimes have trouble putting a complete 14 man roster together. It gives them guys ready to step right in when needed with "varsity" experience. I guess that's what happens when you have built a program to the popularity that Harper has with Penn. Kudos' to him and anyone else that has that type of success. I say let them all wrestle and send their "B" and "C" teams out to compete and fill spots that might otherwise have no team there. I don't see what harm that does. Isn't the whole idea to get more kids wrestling?

 

Here's a crazy thought. Why not take schools that only have a few extra guys on their JV, that rarely get to wrestle and team them up with other schools to make full squads that could wrestle against other patch together teams? I know that would require alot of work between coaches to coordinate it but the end result would be more wrestling time for the kids. Or, just have more JV tournaments that aren't a "team" format but just individual where you could bring all your extras. 

[timbo]

instead of Forfeits-- a few of our JV events we have done just that.  We have extra wrestlers and we insert them into another teams line-up that would be forfeiting those weight classes.  They do not score in the dual----but kids are getting matches instead of forfeits.  We send a coach over to coach are guys as their matches come up.

[Regionrat1]

These days with all the forfiets let teams send 2 guys to da state tournament if they cann fill da spots. Arn't we all  about promotin da fine sport of wrestling. Ole Harper must be like da Pied Piper get all those kids off there buts away from dare playstations. More power to him.

[Toe the Line]

Nice post ccbig!!!! 

[kevinl]

I think terminology is the only real problem here. What some would call a JV team is much better described as a Varsity B team.

 

If a given team's Varsity B squad not only can hang with other schools Varsity teams and in fact have won several Varsity tournaments I think it is obvious the Varsity B team is deserving to compete with other Varsity teams and any individual wrestler wins/losses should be treated as Varsity wins/losses.

 

I know for certain at least one of Penn's current Varsity B team members was state ranked for several weeks. I believe others have been as well in the past few years. That should give an idea of the strength of several these school's Varsity B squads. Many of these Varsity B team wrestlers would otherwise be a starter for many of the teams in the state.

 

It would be nice to see coaches talking about how to increase the number or wrestlers who can compete and how to grow a wrestling program instead of how to limit competition between skilled wrestlers.

 

Actually no.  It is not the TERMINOLOGY that is the problem. 

 

Everyone is thinking Penn and they have the ability to do it right.  That is very specific (and Fabio called me out for being too specific.)  I am talking about the concept in general.

 

Again if a coach follows the rules and gives everyone time to decide whether they want to wrestle the other schools B-team then great.

 

We were recently in a super dual where a school decided to send their B-team.  The host school was notified VERY LATE that this was happening.  It left the host school in a bad predicament.  It was too late to find another school to take their place.  And the other schools in attendance were likewise not able to find a better tournament.

 

This particular school had 6 forfeits and the school placed dead last out of 8 teams.  They did not have a single undefeated wrestler and I doubt more than a couple had winning records on the day.  Their A-team last year was either the winner or runner-up.

 

The process IN GENERAL can hurt the other schools in the tournament.  Specific schools may be able to pull it off with little damage but this is not about one school doing it well.  The thread is titled "The JV Problem."  And like it or not there really is one.  It is about everyone attempting to do it, some very poorly that I was referring (very clearly I thought but I communicate with others as part of my job so what I do know is that many people read only part of what you right and then read into it what they want.)

 

If a school fields a B-team that is able to compete then more power to them.  Honestly I would be thrilled to get into a tournament with Penn's A-team, B-team, or C-team.

 

But people need to realize that there are other teams out there who are attempting this and doing a poor job and THAT is hurting other wrestlers and other schools.

 

However either way, I support their ability to do so as long as they are following the IHSAA's rules.

 

I hope either our coach decides to not go back to that tournament OR the host school finds a replacement for that school.  Their B-team was a waste of mat time for all five schools that wrestled them and sadly they were expected to be one of the power teams there.

[ccbig]

Actually no.  It is not the TERMINOLOGY that is the problem. 

 

Everyone is thinking Penn and they have the ability to do it right.  That is very specific (and Fabio called me out for being too specific.)  I am talking about the concept in general.

 

Again if a coach follows the rules and gives everyone time to decide whether they want to wrestle the other schools B-team then great.

 

We were recently in a super dual where a school decided to send their B-team.  The host school was notified VERY LATE that this was happening.  It left the host school in a bad predicament.  It was too late to find another school to take their place.  And the other schools in attendance were likewise not able to find a better tournament.

 

This particular school had 6 forfeits and the school placed dead last out of 8 teams.  They did not have a single undefeated wrestler and I doubt more than a couple had winning records on the day.  Their A-team last year was either the winner or runner-up.

 

The process IN GENERAL can hurt the other schools in the tournament.  Specific schools may be able to pull it off with little damage but this is not about one school doing it well.  The thread is titled "The JV Problem."  And like it or not there really is one.  It is about everyone attempting to do it, some very poorly that I was referring (very clearly I thought but I communicate with others as part of my job so what I do know is that many people read only part of what you right and then read into it what they want.)

 

If a school fields a B-team that is able to compete then more power to them.  Honestly I would be thrilled to get into a tournament with Penn's A-team, B-team, or C-team.

 

But people need to realize that there are other teams out there who are attempting this and doing a poor job and THAT is hurting other wrestlers and other schools.

 

However either way, I support their ability to do so as long as they are following the IHSAA's rules.

 

I hope either our coach decides to not go back to that tournament OR the host school finds a replacement for that school.  Their B-team was a waste of mat time for all five schools that wrestled them and sadly they were expected to be one of the power teams there.

 

What I hear you ranting when giving specifics is about is one school who IYO messed up a single tourney but you making a blanket statement about it hurting all of "JV" wrestling.

 

The two subjects are very different because.... in the large wrestling teams who have the numbers of skilled wrestlers to have a Varsity B squad... the majority of those Varsity B team wrestlers would be... in any other program... VARSITY STARTERS.

 

What you describe are wrestlers from a smaller program sending a JV skilled levels set of wrestlers to Varsity duals. I don't think anyone advocates that happening. Any coach foolish enough to do that will probably not be invited to very many dual tourneys in the future once word has gotten around.

 

The problems for JV wrestling is the lack of numbers of JV tourneys. Another problem is many teams do not have the staff to split coaches to send wrestlers to different tourneys on the same dates. If Thursdays and Saturdays are the overwhelmingly largest days used for varsity matches maybe more JV tourneys could be scheduled for a different day of the week.

 

I also like the idea of charger.dad of allowing smaller teams to mix their wrestlers at JV matches to make a full team. In Minnesota this was even done at a Varsity level for small schools where they combined for some specific sports to create a full team in conditions where they would not have been able to field a full squad alone. It was called a co-op team. Two of my sons wrestled on a co-op middle school and high school teams in Minnesota before we moved here to Indiana.

 

 

[kevinl]

What I hear you ranting when giving specifics is about is one school who IYO messed up a single tourney but you making a blanket statement about it hurting all of "JV" wrestling.

 

The two subjects are very different because.... in the large wrestling teams who have the numbers of skilled wrestlers to have a Varsity B squad... the majority of those Varsity B team wrestlers would be... in any other program... VARSITY STARTERS.

 

What you describe are wrestlers from a smaller program sending a JV skilled levels set of wrestlers to Varsity duals. I don't think anyone advocates that happening. Any coach foolish enough to do that will probably not be invited to very many dual tourneys in the future once word has gotten around.

 

The problems for JV wrestling is the lack of numbers of JV tourneys. Another problem is many teams do not have the staff to split coaches to send wrestlers to different tourneys on the same dates. If Thursdays and Saturdays are the overwhelmingly largest days used for varsity matches maybe more JV tourneys could be scheduled for a different day of the week.

 

I also like the idea of charger.dad of allowing smaller teams to mix their wrestlers at JV matches to make a full team. In Minnesota this was even done at a Varsity level for small schools where they combined for some specific sports to create a full team in conditions where they would not have been able to field a full squad alone. It was called a co-op team. Two of my sons wrestled on a co-op middle school and high school teams in Minnesota before we moved here to Indiana.

Thank you for so kindly acknowledging my "ranting."

 

I will respond to your "rant" as well.

 

If you read from the beginning coach stated that this practice did not hurt others.  He made the blanket statement that it did not.  I simply pointed out that it could and in face in at least one case did.

 

I have been repeatedly stupefied at how poorly people read what I write and how they want to read into my statements things that were not said.

 

No the two subjects are not different.  Coach said that it did not hurt other schools and my point was that it could if done poorly.  You agree it was done poorly so you prove my point.

 

In science if a hypothesis is given all it takes is one negative to disprove the hypothesis was correct.  I don't care if it is done and am glad there are schools that can do it, but there is a JV problem as the original poster mentioned and I think it is important that it continues to be looked at so that it is done correctly and other schools/wrestlers are not hurt in the process.

 

Yes this coach may have been foolish, but he is doing exactly what was being discussed here therefore per tenant to the discussion.  He apparently followed the same rules that Penn and other schools have.  So again it is pertinent and NOT a different subject.

 

However you will clearly see in ALL of my posts that I do not have a problem with the practice but I do struggle with the blanket statement that it is always OK to do and never hurts any other schools.  I think it is great that coach has enough B-team or JV kids to do it and have repeatedly stated that I would love to be in a situation where we were wrestling even his freshman team.  But when you are struggling as a team to get into decent tournaments only to find one of the top teams pulled their top wrestlers too late to find an alternative then there is no way anyone can say that the practice never hurts anyone.

 

If you think it is done perfectly every time then that is your opinion.  Mine differs and while my opinion seems worthy of a "rant" I will honor and accept yours despite my proof that it is not 100% correct 100% of the time and thus it does deserve a little scrutiny and thus it can affect other schools and hurt other wrestlers if done poorly.

[ccbig]

Thank you for so kindly acknowledging my "ranting."

 

I will respond to your "rant" as well.

 

If you read from the beginning coach stated that this practice did not hurt others.  He made the blanket statement that it did not.  I simply pointed out that it could and in face in at least one case did.

 

I have been repeatedly stupefied at how poorly people read what I write and how they want to read into my statements things that were not said.

 

No the two subjects are not different.  Coach said that it did not hurt other schools and my point was that it could if done poorly.  You agree it was done poorly so you prove my point.

 

In science if a hypothesis is given all it takes is one negative to disprove the hypothesis was correct.  I don't care if it is done and am glad there are schools that can do it, but there is a JV problem as the original poster mentioned and I think it is important that it continues to be looked at so that it is done correctly and other schools/wrestlers are not hurt in the process.

 

Yes this coach may have been foolish, but he is doing exactly what was being discussed here therefore per tenant to the discussion.  He apparently followed the same rules that Penn and other schools have.  So again it is pertinent and NOT a different subject.

 

However you will clearly see in ALL of my posts that I do not have a problem with the practice but I do struggle with the blanket statement that it is always OK to do and never hurts any other schools.  I think it is great that coach has enough B-team or JV kids to do it and have repeatedly stated that I would love to be in a situation where we were wrestling even his freshman team.  But when you are struggling as a team to get into decent tournaments only to find one of the top teams pulled their top wrestlers too late to find an alternative then there is no way anyone can say that the practice never hurts anyone.

 

If you think it is done perfectly every time then that is your opinion.  Mine differs and while my opinion seems worthy of a "rant" I will honor and accept yours despite my proof that it is not 100% correct 100% of the time and thus it does deserve a little scrutiny and thus it can affect other schools and hurt other wrestlers if done poorly.

 

One thing we can agree on is that neither one of us believes the other understands what each other are trying to say.

 

I have not witnessed the problems you have described. I have seen the process work well for varsity teams. An issue like you described  should be a rarity to happen because of the anger/ire it would invoke from all the schools involved. (Not saying it would never happen, just that IMO it would not be a common occurrence.) Yes, I agree it should be monitored. I disagree it is a ongoing "problem".

 

Meanwhile, you have apparently missed several actual suggestions by myself and other posters in past posts in this thread about things that could be done to help improve JV wrestling itself within Indiana. Do you or others have thoughts on those ideas for improvement or your own ideas, or are you just wanting to vent complaints about varsity matches?

[kevinl]

One thing we can agree on is that neither one of us believes the other understands what each other are trying to say.

 

I have not witnessed the problems you have described. I have seen the process work well for varsity teams. An issue like you described  should be a rarity to happen because of the anger/ire it would invoke from all the schools involved. (Not saying it would never happen, just that IMO it would not be a common occurrence.) Yes, I agree it should be monitored. I disagree it is a ongoing "problem".

 

Meanwhile, you have apparently missed several actual suggestions by myself and other posters in past posts in this thread about things that could be done to help improve JV wrestling itself within Indiana. Do you or others have thoughts on those ideas for improvement or your own ideas, or are you just wanting to vent complaints about varsity matches?

We are getting closer here because that middle paragraph is what I have said all along.  Whether a rarity or not is has happened and others need to be made aware that it does hurt the other teams in a tournament when it does.  When and if it does happen it is a problem no matter how rarely it does.  (If a wrestler gets dropped on his head during a match we don't just let it go because it is a rarely do we?)  I never said anything about an ongoing problem only that it is a problem when it does occur.

 

But remember you replied to MY comments so it really behooves YOU to understand my remarks before casting aspersions.  It was you that chose to reply to my comments not the other way round.  I understood you from the beginning, still do.  It is not up to me to read your or others' suggestions, I did not miss them.  Some are great, but they are not pertinent to my remarks.

 

Unfortunately you repeatedly miss that I do not nor will I have a problem with the practice.  My response was to one poster that said it does not hurt anyone else and my point was that is can and has in certain circumstances.

 

Again you read complaints where my response was to a VERY SPECIFIC POST.  And that is what YOU have apparently missed (so I have made it easy and included the beginning post below.)

 

So let me try to be clear AGAIN:

1. I have no problem with the idea of schools that have the ability to do it well splitting into 2, 3, 4, or 57 teams if they can do so and be competitive and they properly inform ALL schools involved in enough time that they can make alternate choices (and that takes more notice than a week.)

2. We DO have a problem with JV tournaments in the State of Indiana.

3. We have an even bigger issues in my area with no Middle School programs.

4. We cannot made blanket statements that this practice never hurts other schools.

 

If you and I agree on 1, 2, and 4 above then we are saying the same thing.

 

You (collectively as you appear to at least be open to hearing even if incompletely) attempting to pick apart my response without looking at the context. To make it simpler here is the original post.  THIS is what I have been saying all along and have not deviated.

 

My only responses following this was to respond to others that say it does not happen and clearly it does.  In fact I talked to a parent from another school who was also there and they too are upset that a school waited until the week of the tournament and made a poor attempt to contact that school that they were sending their B-team.  No one had time to make alternative plans so instead on getting a team that has placed in the top two previous years they sent a team of 8 JV kids that struggled to win more than 3 matches in each of the duals.  There was not a single team that was happy about taking five forfeits and wrestling JV kids (and not what I or anyone there would call GOOD JV kids.)  Several teams are talking about finding an alternate tournament leaving the host school looking for poorer teams to invite or shutting down their tournament.

 

Maybe if you read the below you will see what I was saying since you acknowledge that you just do not understand.  That is why I always quote the person to whom I am responding.  Silly me but I think it makes it easier to read a post IN THE CONTEXT IN WHICH IT WAS GIVEN!

 

it doesnt help any team that doesnt have one haha

doesnt hurt em

Fabio,

While I do not personally have a problem with the practice, it CAN hurt another team.

 

For example say a team has 2 or 3 good wrestlers but a weak supporting team.  In that scenario, they are not likely to draw a school's A-team in a tournament.

 

It is better for the A-team, but it does hurt the 2 or 3 quality kids on the team that could have hung with the A-team wrestlers.

 

We had that happen and one of our better wrestlers missed an opportunity to wrestle a quality match.  Instead of a POTENTIAL match between two State ranked wrestlers (not saying they would have actually seen each other) ours bumped up a weight to get a quick pin against a JV kid.

 

I have no beef with the school, I wish we were in a position to do the same.  But our team's better wrestlers did miss out on some quality mat time and that will hurt him in the future, especially if that continues to become prevalent.  Hard for a small school with an incomplete roster to get invited to these better tournaments in the first place but when they do get into one with a better team only to face a JV wrestler it does hurt that team, but not the sport.

 

Again (for the reading impaired) I have no beef with a school creating an A and a B team and sending the B team to a weaker tournament.  But Fabio is not correct in saying that it does not hurt the schools who get the B-team.  It can.

 

It is a trade off.  We had kids that had some success against the JV kids but (to be totally honest) those matches were not going to get them ready for Sectionals, while the 2 or 3 may have had matches that would have helped them get ready for SS or even State competition.  They are the ones that get hurt by a 2 team system.

 

And yes we are trying to get stronger so we can be invited to the better tournaments.  Until then we will do our best to get those quality kids the best matches and hope that we do not face too many B (jv) teams.