lewdwar Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 How many practices or what is considered an active club member. Also what is considered a geographical area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattyb Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 How many practices or what is considered an active club member. Also what is considered a geographical area. No one can dictate who attends a club or what is considered an active member. All ISWA club are to use their best judgements and sportsmanship. As stated within the set guidelines, this is set up to be community based event. By keeping this a community based event, this will allow for the promotion of the sport of wrestling in each community and prevent the formation of "all-star" teams. Coaches will be motivated to get kids out to fill teams, thus growing our sport. All-star teams would discourage many wrestlers from participating in this event. With this said, we realize that not all community clubs can fill a roster with kids from their community. Furthermore, there are many kids that attend clubs which are not located within their community. For these reasons, we have decided to allow an "allowence" for all teams (4 wrestlers). This is similar to what is done at the Disney Duals at the high school level. The teams are still considered to be community teams, but an allowence is provided so that teams are able to compete with other full teams. Now as far as the term "geographical area". We realized that we needed to set some sort of boundries, to discourage clubs from seeking statewide for "hired guns" (for the lack of a better term). We encourage all clubs to give spots to kids which live in around the area of which the club is located. We considered using counties or ISWA sections. With this said, there are many clubs located near a county line or an ISWA section boundary (For example: Marion and Johnson Counties are in different sections). We know that many kids in Johnson County attend clubs which are located in Marion County. We do not want to discourage or make it not possible for these kids to wrestle for the club that they have attended for years. Thus, we have decided to go with "geographical area". We are not going to get a compass and map out, but with this said we all need to use good judgement. If a wrestler attends schools hours away, don't include them on your roster please. We could make several pages of rules and regulations for this event, but there is no way to prevent gray areas such as this and not discourage the growth of our sport. We all must remember, that growing our sport is what this event is all about. I hope this explains things. If you have any other questions or concerns on this matter, feel free to contact me directly. Thank You, Matt Brewer ISWA Folkstyle Developmental Director 317-201-0644 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewdwar Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 Thank you. I know I wasn't the only one with that question that's why I asked on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattyb Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Here is my opinion / definition of "geographical area" in Indiana. I would say that Indiana has five areas. Northwest, Northeast, Central, Southwest, and Southeast. Say that your club is in Northwest Indiana, we would expect your wrestlers to reside in that area. Your club may be somewhere that is hard to define (near the edge of an area). In this case we have to use good judgement. This is why we decided not to use ISWA sections (to be fair to clubs on the edge of areas). There has to be some sort of boundary / guideline. At Disney Duals and Kingsport TN, they use states / regions. We are trying to model our event after these very successful events that many of us have enjoyed. We realize that not all ISWA members belong to clubs which are participating in this event. With this said, not everyone will be able to attend. This is a TEAM event, which is to promote comminity pride and encourage the growth of clubs within Indiana communities. This event is only in it's second year. Hopefully more clubs will get involved, and this event will help grow our sport. All but 4 team members must have a report card from the same school district. I hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattyb Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 So if my child wants to attend team state and there isn't a team within a few hours going, can my child not go? A board member / tournament director will be posting a statement today or tomorrow. I have explained the guidelines to the best of my ability. Again, the rules have been in place for months now. I can tell you this. A LOT of thought is put into whatever the ISWA does for the kids. I assure you that are intention is not upset families or wrestlers. As stated above, we do not want to use a map and compass, but it appears that a defined distance may be in order. We are trying to avoid this. Again, this is a community based tournament. It may be helpful to discuss any issues with club leaders and have them contact us. Feel free to call and discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattyb Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Just to be sure we all understand...everyone is providing report cards for every kid on your team...you basically get a maximum 4 kids (The "allowance") on your team who do not live in your school district...however, those 4 kids cant come from all over the state, they need to be within a reasonable distance...this reasonable distance is hopefully going to be defined by the board today...once that distance is defined...seems pretty simple...the kids on your team need to living in your school district, or, be within X....unless your tryng to create an all-star team, 4 free spots within x seems pretty generous, its nearly 25% of your lineup... Yes. This all correct. Please note that the number 4 was not just pulled from the sky. As stated before, we are modeling this event after Diney Duals (a very succussful national community based event). They allow 3. We have more weight classes so we bumped it to four. That is 22% of the weight classes (18 weight classes), if you start all four. On a 24 man roster they will make up 16% of a roster. All good points and thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boilerelitedad Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I also agree both are great posts, the only thing I hope is the board takes into consideration the families who are forced to drive long distances to get thier child to an iswa club. I would think if the families are wiling to make the drive and the child is a regular club member it shouldnt matter how far away they are. I just dont believe distance is a good criteria to base this restriction on. I believe that some wrestling families will go whatever the distance to help their young westlers. The people around the Indianapolis area are very fortunate in the sense that they have the numbers and facilities to be able to provide this type of opportunity to thier children. Many of our rural communities do not have the ability to provide this opportunity and these children will be left out. I just hope that the iswa board will take this into consideration when making their decision, its a tough call and I fully understand that someone will try to abuse the system at some point, it seems inevitable today but I just dont feel driving distance is a vailid point what is to far for parent X may seem resonable to parent Y. I would propose that as both Mattyb and chickenwing have both stated it is only four kids if they are club members let them wrestle, some of these kids may never get a chance to wrestle on a team at a big event like this again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeDuPont Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 This is my first post on this site, but thought I would take the time to weigh in on this subject. My son is a fith grader who has participated with the same kids in his wrestling club since his 2nd grade year. Some of these kids are classmates, some are from other school districts withhin a 30 mile radius. With the rules set as they are, our club is not able to participate in these elementary duals as 50% of the kids in our club are from these school districts that do not even offer elementary wrestling on even a club to do so. I understand that the ISWA is trying model this similar to the Disney Duals, however this is not the Disney Duals. I see statements in this thread and others on this website that we are trying to grow the sport, however not all kids that belong to just ONE club and have for many years not being able to participate in this event, is not growing the sport. Growing the sport is where all elementary aged level wrestlers are allowed to participate if they or their club so choses. We have 30 kids in our club this year, the parents want to wrestle at this event however we have to tell them they are not allowed to do so. It is my opinion the rules should be modified to include all clubs, where the clubs would need to provide evidence that wrestlers above the Bantam age group show membership to the particular club of at least two years. One may ask what type of evidence, I would assume the ISWA tracks the ISWA cards in some manner and could determine what club has issued the cards during club sign ups in the past. I do not belive this would consitute and all-star team if the children have been intact with a club for at least two years. This type of modification is the type of modification that grows the sport. Wrestlers are comptetive, always looking to beat the best, excluding these types of clubs is excluding some of the best and not growing the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickenWing Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 This is my first post on this site, but thought I would take the time to weigh in on this subject. My son is a fith grader who has participated with the same kids in his wrestling club since his 2nd grade year. Some of these kids are classmates, some are from other school districts withhin a 30 mile radius. With the rules set as they are, our club is not able to participate in these elementary duals as 50% of the kids in our club are from these school districts that do not even offer elementary wrestling on even a club to do so. I understand that the ISWA is trying model this similar to the Disney Duals, however this is not the Disney Duals. I see statements in this thread and others on this website that we are trying to grow the sport, however not all kids that belong to just ONE club and have for many years not being able to participate in this event, is not growing the sport. Growing the sport is where all elementary aged level wrestlers are allowed to participate if they or their club so choses. We have 30 kids in our club this year, the parents want to wrestle at this event however we have to tell them they are not allowed to do so. It is my opinion the rules should be modified to include all clubs, where the clubs would need to provide evidence that wrestlers above the Bantam age group show membership to the particular club of at least two years. One may ask what type of evidence, I would assume the ISWA tracks the ISWA cards in some manner and could determine what club has issued the cards during club sign ups in the past. I do not belive this would consitute and all-star team if the children have been intact with a club for at least two years. This type of modification is the type of modification that grows the sport. Wrestlers are comptetive, always looking to beat the best, excluding these types of clubs is excluding some of the best and not growing the sport. I totally understand what you are saying, but there has to be some rules, some boundaries, or the clubs that do participate will drop out....why? Because why wrestle a match with a club kid roster verse an all-star team....I know what you are saying is not intended to promote all-star teams, or you don't believe it "constitutes" an all-star team, but lets be serious...do you honestly think if Red Cobra, CIA, Contenders, Hoosier Elite, etc...sat down and could put together any team and enter, regardless of where the kids are from, any school/community club could compete with that....the answer is simple...no...but that is the end result...no limit on boundaries, no specific number of wrestlers, and its no longer a "community based event," its an all star team with 2-3 kids from Indy, 2-3 kids from Evansville, 2-3 kids from Crown Point, 2-3 kids from Bloomington...again, not suggesting you are promoting this...but that is simply what happens...Again, I am not saying that is your goal...but once you throw rules like this out the window...its an all-star game...better suited for Christmas Duals and events like that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSchaefer Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 My first post on the board...seems this is a growing concern for everyone...all I can say is when I spoke with Mr. Brewer, not to call him out, sorry Matt, it seemed to me like the ISWA is trying to consider all the above issues. **No, I do not live in Avon, and my kid doesn't wrestle for Avon**, and I still think they are doing what they can to keep it as fair as possible...My 2 cents are if there are no rules about school districts or allowances for the kids who may not live in the school district, 4 per team, like it or not, it is an all star event...If you want an all star event, throw out the school districts and allowances...If you want a community based event, which is what the book says...there has to be some guidelines...just from what Mr. Brewer told me, they spend a lot of time on this...trying to keep it fair...I believe they are working out these very issues...but you cant just throw the rules out the window... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeDuPont Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I agree clubs like CIA, Red Cobra, Humphrey etc...should be excluded from the event. I am thinking of a rural type school. For example lets take a school district such as Southern Wells, now I have no idea if they have an elementary program on not, but to use a "district" as an an example lets use them. Small Rural Community school district. Now let's say Bluffton, Madison Grant, Eastbrook, Mississenwa do not have elementary programs or clubs to promote the sport of wrestling, but have wrestlers who attend the Club at Southern Wells. If this so called Southern Wells Wrestling Club contains a total of 25 kids K through 6 with a toal of 14 of these kids outside the district it would be impossible for this club to participate in this event, even if the 11 kids from Southern Wells were of different weight classes, that leaves 6 to fill, two more than allowed. It is clubs like this that are formed to grow the sport of wrestling within there immediate area, but yet prohibited from particpating in such an exciting event. My proposal would be to allow open community clubs to attend the event with the stipuation that the club that has any wrestler over the bantam age group which does not reside in the school district provide the current year and previous year ISWA Card numbers as a tracking device to ensure the wrestler indeed has participated in the club the current and previous year. I am not sure but I would think the ISWA surely tracks the cards issued to clubs for sign ups and tournaments. And with the ISWA published individual tournmant schedule I would think it would be fairly easy to ensure each wrestler is legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattyb Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 All of you make good points. The ugly truth is that not all kids will be able to participate in this event this year. With this said, here is some things to think about. 1. Last year we attempted to have two divisions, an all-star / mixed club / open division and a community based division. Under this format all kids would have been able to participate. Kids from small and large communities could come together to make teams. The fact is that only one team entered the open division (which allowed kids from multiple school districts). Due to the lack of participation, this division was done away with. So..... there was an attempt (by the ISWA) to open an avenue for all wrestlers. With this being said, I will revist this concept so that no kid will be left out in the future. We can not blame the ISWA for not having an open division when we (the youth wrestling community) showed no interest last year. 2. The rules have been posted and in place for three months. I agree that they are not perfect (nothing is). With this said, we are two weeks away from this meet. We do not have the time, nor is it fair to change the rules at the 11th hour. Last year we had a meeting at Ben Davis the night of weigh-ins. We will be meeting there again this year. This is an open invitation to all CLUB LEADERS, to join us to discuss this event and to give imput for future dual state championships. Please come be a part of the solution . Blasting the ISWA and this tournament on this board will not help. Again, I am new to the board. I can not begin to tell you how much time, effort, and thought goes into whatever it is that the ISWA is a part of. We are not here to make families upset. As stated by myself, Tshaefer, and Chicken Wing.... there has to be rules and guidelines. We are not going to change them at this point. 3. Tracking the cards........... We did consider simply stating that whatever club you get your card at, is where you wrestle. With this said, cards expire on September 1st. Most clubs do not begin until after October. More and more kids are getting there cards at their academy clubs or online to start working out before club starts. Just because a kid picks up a card at an academy does not make them more or less of a club member within their community. 4. Wade... I do understand your frustration. I do not take your concerns lightly. I do care about your club and clubs like yours. I would suggest this for this year. Per your post, you have 15 team members from your school district. There are 18 weight classes. Consider taking your 15 wrestlers and adding 4 from the other school district. This should give you a pretty full line up. Again, this tournament is a work in progress. I assure all of you that if we all come together and agree to support the open division, that no kid will be left out again. But.... it will take all of us to get it going. We need participation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeDuPont Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Matt, I understand you and the board have looked at this long and hard, and I being a parent of an elementary aged wrestler appreciate not only your time and efforts but the entire ISWA board, a big thank you for all that you do. I also understand you cannot change the rules at the eleventh hour and was not epecting you to do so. My questions and concerns are a more of a going forward motion. Also, the example I used above was a possible scenerio only to be used as an example. Our club has 29 wrestlers where only 10 are from our school district and unfortunately could only fill 7 of the 17 weight classes. Your point about getting the cards at clubs such as CIA, Red Cobra etc...is an excellent point I had not thought off. I will plan on attending the discussion the night of weigh in at individual state. One thought to put on the agenda is...A wrestler that is a member of an open club must attend school within the district or at a school where the physical address is no more than 30 miles from the address of the club practice room. This alone would prevent an "all star" team from Evansville, Indianapolis, Crown Point, Fort Wayne etc... Again thank you for all the efforts you and the ISWA board have put forth in regards to this event and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattyb Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Let's not forget that there are other ISWA tournaments on this date. You can get your kids matches at Whiteland on the 7th, Martinsville on the 8th (track wrestling event) , and Jasper on the 8th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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