GladSwede Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 I'm going to start off by posing this question. Do quality wrestlers make strong programs or do strong programs make quality wrestlers? You mention schools like Delphi, Western, and Winamac only being competitive or tough every few years or so and that class wrestling would help them. I have to ask, what would be your definition of being competitive then? If your definition is by number of state qualifiers/champions I guess a class system would help them. But adding these labels doesn't improve the quality of wrestling for these schools. Delphi is sending 5 to state this year from my count. In a class system, they may send 8 or 9 (don't know really). The point is the skill of each wrestler on Delphi's team will be exactly the same, regardless of which system they're in. You also make an interesting argument about success breeds success. I agree with this somewhat, but it's not that cut and dry. The coaching staff and the way the program is structured is more of a determinant of kids staying and improving in the sport, not the number of state qualifiers the school has. You make the program appealing to the child, then the parents will see the child's interest in wrestling. Thus the parents will put money into the sport for the kid (hopefully). Then when the child grows up to being an adult, he'll feel obligated to stay with the sport and it pretty much snowballs from there. When I started out in the youth program (which was in Ohio), I fell in love with the sport. I put alot of work into the sport and a part of my personal identity has derived from wrestling. This is the reason why I'm still involved and love the sport, and it has NOTHING to do with any of my achievements or medals I won. This is where Indiana falls behind most of the "hotbed wrestling states." There aren't alot of people that feel that obligation to the sport, but I feel we're getting better at. Look at the Howes', Tsirtsis', Escobedos'. We seem to be putting up a few all-americans consistently the past few years, collegiately. My Indiana experience only goes back about 15 years, but have we ever had this type of national success before? Considering you can have a quality wrestler from a non quality program but you can't have a quality program without quality wrestlers I reason that quality wrestlers make quality programs. The idea isn't that adding classes itself will make the wrestlers better but that having success will encourage more wrestlers to wrestle and more wrestlers to spend extra time wrestling. If those three extra delphi state qualifiers in the class system decide that they want to spend extra time because they believe they can be state champions having made it state instead of regional qualifiers and put forth more effort then Indiana wrestling has improved by 3 wrestlers. Granted this doesn't affect the quality of wrestling in Indiana as a whole, but as you pointed out it's more likely that these wrestlers that invest a ton of effort in the wrestling will likely return to the sport and contribute. I would define being competitive as having some success in the state tournament since generally that's what is celebrated the most with banners in the rafters and trophies in the trophy cases. Now I agree that it takes more than success to breed success, but for those programs that already have a coaching staff and structure that promotes wrestlers growth if success can up their numbers, I don't see the downside of this. If Delphi were to win state this year and their coaches decided to try encourage their team to attend a particular camp, do you believe the state championship would have an effect on how many parents agree to send their kids? It would be real interesting to see if there is an increase in numbers for all ages of the program after a team wins a state championship. Why did you join youth wrestling? Did your parents come from wrestling families? Did you have siblings or friends that wrestled? What caused you to pick wrestling? What caused your parents to agree to let you do it? These are things we need to be examining to promote growth in our sport. The more kids we can get interested in wrestling the better the chances of finding a kid who will love the sport and contribute back to it. To those of you who argue about having one champion over having two champions in a weight class I say it's not about you, it's about the kids. I highly doubt that if you ask a state champion from a state with class wrestling if it diminishes his achievement he'll answer no. He won't care that he was the state champion in such and such class, only that he stood atop the podium under the lights. I've already read the comments about friendship tourneys and understand that this is the nature of competition...not everyone can win. But to ignore the inequalities of the system we have in place without taking into the consideration the affect it has on the people in the system that it affects (small school wrestlers) because we want one champion is arrogant. Y2's data suggests that wrestles of bigger schools are 3x more likely to make it to state without ever wrestling. This shows an inherent flaw with the current system that for whatever the reason. We need to fix this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Y2's data suggests that wrestles of bigger schools are 3x more likely to make it to state without ever wrestling. This shows an inherent flaw with the current system that for whatever the reason. We need to fix this. What data suggests this? The data I have seen indicates that big schools have 3x as many students and therefore likely have 3x as many naturally talented athletes. Whatever is being done at small schools and big schools to develop the talent appears to, on average, net out as big schools have 3x as many state qualifiers (which is what would be predicted based on the talent distribution). Where is the inherent flaw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 The inherent flaw is that competition breeds better wrestlers. Wrestlers without natural talent are more likely to go to state if they are from a bigger school right? I found this comment from a former teammate of mine that wrestled in Ohio. Give kids more of an opportunity in their young lives to perform on a big stage. Its an amazing spectacle here in Ohio and other states and the kids will keep their memories for the rest of their lives. What is wrong with expanding the sport at the small school level? Why is it so wrong to do that in Indiana, yet they can do it just fine in most other states? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 The inherent flaw is that competition breeds better wrestlers. Wrestlers without natural talent are more likely to go to state if they are from a bigger school right? I found this comment from a former teammate of mine that wrestled in Ohio. Give kids more of an opportunity in their young lives to perform on a big stage. Its an amazing spectacle here in Ohio and other states and the kids will keep their memories for the rest of their lives. What is wrong with expanding the sport at the small school level? Why is it so wrong to do that in Indiana, yet they can do it just fine in most other states? Whether it is unfair and whether it is better for the sport are two different arguments. My argument is that nothing in the data you have previously posted (including the fact that 75% of the state qualifiers come from big schools) reveals any unfairness. Where is your support for the argument that wrestlers without natural talent are more likely to go to state if they are from a bigger school? The data you are putting forth as support doesn't prove it. Small schools and big schools, on average, aren't doing anything to give their individuals an advantage over what probability predicts. I'd wager a lot of money that an 8th grader without much talent is much more likely to be developed into a state qualifier at Garrett, Yorktown, South Adams, or Bluffton than at Marion. Do you disagree? If you don't have enough information on the Marion program to make a determination, just let me know how many state qualifiers have come from Garrett, Yorktown, South Adams, or Bluffton versus Marion over the past 5, 10, 0r 15 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltfan64 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 My God, is this issue ever getting old. The only people in favor of class wrestling are the coaches of small schools. If you ask the student athletes at these small schools they too will say that to claim to be the best, you must beat the best. I came from a small school and say that this individual tournament would mean nothing if you started classing it. Trust me when I say, spectators would not attend this event if it were classed. That is with the exception of family and friends. If you want to ruin Indiana wrestling like they did basketball, just implement class wrestling. It would be the end of a fantastic sporting event. I never won a state title, and I am here to tell you that I never felt that it was unfair and it didn't give me a low self esteem. I still love the sport. Big deal if only 14 kids can call themselves champions. Welcome to the real world. That is life. Not to mention the worst ass beatings I ever took on the mat came from two young men that went to small schools. If you want to class the team competition, fine. I don't really think too many people care about this aspect of the sport and it would shut the people up that keep crying about class wrestling. Give it a rest. Please let this topic rot in h@#$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Why do so many people attend the state finals that are classed in other states? How did class basketball hurt the sport? I haven't seen a drop off in excitement in the teams at Garrett. The kids will wrestle in whatever system there is. They will still work hard to achieve their goals and their goals will not change if we have on class, two classes or 10 classes. Maybe we should let the kids decide what is best for them just like we do in everything else, such as which teachers or coaches are hired. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 The inherent flaw is that competition breeds better wrestlers. Wrestlers without natural talent are more likely to go to state if they are from a bigger school right? I found this comment from a former teammate of mine that wrestled in Ohio. Give kids more of an opportunity in their young lives to perform on a big stage. Its an amazing spectacle here in Ohio and other states and the kids will keep their memories for the rest of their lives. What is wrong with expanding the sport at the small school level? Why is it so wrong to do that in Indiana, yet they can do it just fine in most other states? Whether it is unfair and whether it is better for the sport are two different arguments. My argument is that nothing in the data you have previously posted (including the fact that 75% of the state qualifiers come from big schools) reveals any unfairness. Where is your support for the argument that wrestlers without natural talent are more likely to go to state if they are from a bigger school? The data you are putting forth as support doesn't prove it. Small schools and big schools, on average, aren't doing anything to give their individuals an advantage over what probability predicts. I'd wager a lot of money that an 8th grader without much talent is much more likely to be developed into a state qualifier at Garrett, Yorktown, South Adams, or Bluffton than at Marion. Do you disagree? If you don't have enough information on the Marion program to make a determination, just let me know how many state qualifiers have come from Garrett, Yorktown, South Adams, or Bluffton versus Marion over the past 5, 10, 0r 15 years. You keep wanting to mention four small school wrestling programs that are having success right now. What about Daleville, Whiting, South Newton, Tecumseh, Westview, North Knox, Knightstown, Southwood, Speedway...etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 The inherent flaw is that competition breeds better wrestlers. Wrestlers without natural talent are more likely to go to state if they are from a bigger school right? I found this comment from a former teammate of mine that wrestled in Ohio. Give kids more of an opportunity in their young lives to perform on a big stage. Its an amazing spectacle here in Ohio and other states and the kids will keep their memories for the rest of their lives. What is wrong with expanding the sport at the small school level? Why is it so wrong to do that in Indiana, yet they can do it just fine in most other states? Whether it is unfair and whether it is better for the sport are two different arguments. My argument is that nothing in the data you have previously posted (including the fact that 75% of the state qualifiers come from big schools) reveals any unfairness. Where is your support for the argument that wrestlers without natural talent are more likely to go to state if they are from a bigger school? The data you are putting forth as support doesn't prove it. Small schools and big schools, on average, aren't doing anything to give their individuals an advantage over what probability predicts. I'd wager a lot of money that an 8th grader without much talent is much more likely to be developed into a state qualifier at Garrett, Yorktown, South Adams, or Bluffton than at Marion. Do you disagree? If you don't have enough information on the Marion program to make a determination, just let me know how many state qualifiers have come from Garrett, Yorktown, South Adams, or Bluffton versus Marion over the past 5, 10, 0r 15 years. You keep wanting to mention four small school wrestling programs that are having success right now. What about Daleville, Whiting, South Newton, Tecumseh, Westview, North Knox, Knightstown, Southwood, Speedway...etc? If you want to talk about those programs instead, my response would be who are their coaches, how long have they been there, what's the history of wrestling in their community, what are their USA wrestling programs like? Those are likely to be the main factors in why individuals aren't developing into state qualifiers at those schools. Just as they are the factors in why individuals at Garrett, Yorktown, South Adams, and Bluffton are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 If you want to talk about those programs instead, my response would be who are their coaches, how long have they been there, what's the history of wrestling in their community, what are their USA wrestling programs like? Those are likely to be the main factors in why individuals aren't developing into state qualifiers at those schools. Just as they are the factors in why individuals at Garrett, Yorktown, South Adams, and Bluffton are. Why can Bluffton only fill 10 varsity spots when they have good tradition, coaching, etc.? Could it be that the kids realize that they have little to no chance of beating Bellmont no matter how hard they work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 What about these schools too New Harmony 55 0 Howe Military 68 0 Indiana School for Blind 75 0 Indiana School for Deaf 97 0 White's 120 0 Daleville 199 0 Laf. Central Catholic 227 0 Whiting 264 0 Indianapolis Lutheran 287 0 Guerin Catholic 291 0 Rockville 291 0 Covington 293 0 West Central 294 0 Monroe Central 306 0 South Newton 308 0 Tecumseh 312 0 New Washington 314 0 Oakland City Wood Memorial 329 0 Lapel 333 0 Carroll (Flora) 352 0 Indianapolis Scecina 371 0 Northeastern 379 0 Wapahani 392 0 Park Tudor 411 0 Southwood 412 0 Westview 419 0 South Putnam 456 0 Knightstown 459 0 North Knox 489 0 North Judson (San Prairie) 493 0 Speedway 504 0 Lawrenceburg 518 0 Madison Grant 530 0 Alexandria 545 0 Indianapolis Washington 563 0 North Putnam 577 0 Mitchell 583 0 Harding 588 0 Eastbrook 626 0 Indianapolis Howe Academy 628 0 Knox 630 0 Heritage 638 0 Salem 638 0 Mississinewa 681 0 Batesville 688 0 West Vigo 689 0 Tippecanoe Valley 718 0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooke Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I thought Rockville had a heavyweight qualify. But you can add Turkey Run. They didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Those are from the past 11 years, but not including this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 If you want to talk about those programs instead, my response would be who are their coaches, how long have they been there, what's the history of wrestling in their community, what are their USA wrestling programs like? Those are likely to be the main factors in why individuals aren't developing into state qualifiers at those schools. Just as they are the factors in why individuals at Garrett, Yorktown, South Adams, and Bluffton are. Why can Bluffton only fill 10 varsity spots when they have good tradition, coaching, etc.? Could it be that the kids realize that they have little to no chance of beating Bellmont no matter how hard they work? One reason might be that they have had quite a bit of turnover at the coaching position in the past 10 years. Another might be that their basketball program has been successful over the past few years. Another is obviously that they are a small school. My point remains that the numbers don't indicate, on average, any unfairness . Big schools have some advantages. Small schools have some advantages. Some big schools exploit their advantages and some don't. Some small schools exploit their advantages and some don't. But the bottom line is that there is no unfairness on the individual level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drooke Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Those are from the past 11 years, but not including this year. Thanks for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 What about these schools too New Harmony 55 0 Howe Military 68 0 Indiana School for Blind 75 0 Indiana School for Deaf 97 0 White's 120 0 Daleville 199 0 Laf. Central Catholic 227 0 Whiting 264 0 Indianapolis Lutheran 287 0 Guerin Catholic 291 0 Rockville 291 0 Covington 293 0 West Central 294 0 Monroe Central 306 0 South Newton 308 0 Tecumseh 312 0 New Washington 314 0 Oakland City Wood Memorial 329 0 Lapel 333 0 Carroll (Flora) 352 0 Indianapolis Scecina 371 0 Northeastern 379 0 Wapahani 392 0 Park Tudor 411 0 Southwood 412 0 Westview 419 0 South Putnam 456 0 Knightstown 459 0 North Knox 489 0 North Judson (San Prairie) 493 0 Speedway 504 0 Lawrenceburg 518 0 Madison Grant 530 0 Alexandria 545 0 Indianapolis Washington 563 0 North Putnam 577 0 Mitchell 583 0 Harding 588 0 Eastbrook 626 0 Indianapolis Howe Academy 628 0 Knox 630 0 Heritage 638 0 Salem 638 0 Mississinewa 681 0 Batesville 688 0 West Vigo 689 0 Tippecanoe Valley 718 0 Same question - who are their coaches, how long have they been there, what's the history of wrestling in their community, what are their USA wrestling programs like? Also, just out of curiosity, do you have a list of the big schools with no state qualifiers from this time period? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 If you take the number of state placers instead of just state qualifiers the number drops off significantly. Small schools should still have 25% of state placers but over the past 3 years the percentage is more like 15-16% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 If you take the number of state placers instead of just state qualifiers the number drops off significantly. Small schools should still have 25% of state placers but over the past 3 years the percentage is more like 15-16% Interesting. I wondered if that might have been the case. I wonder how it breaks down over a longer period of time. It would also be interesting to see the breakdown at each level in the tournament - sectional entrants, regional qualifiers, semi-state qualifiers, state qualifiers, state placers, etc. Another interesting breakdown would be by weight over a certain number of years. It also makes you wonder how big of a sample size you need to get meaningful numbers. Maybe the number of state placers over a three year period is enough - it's been a long time since I had a statistics class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 If you want to talk about those programs instead, my response would be who are their coaches, how long have they been there, what's the history of wrestling in their community, what are their USA wrestling programs like? Those are likely to be the main factors in why individuals aren't developing into state qualifiers at those schools. Just as they are the factors in why individuals at Garrett, Yorktown, South Adams, and Bluffton are. Why can Bluffton only fill 10 varsity spots when they have good tradition, coaching, etc.? Could it be that the kids realize that they have little to no chance of beating Bellmont no matter how hard they work? That is a bad way to look at it. Bellmont is 3A so they are not a huge school. And if anyone quits because they can't beat one of the best programs in the state they are not learning the lesson you are supposed to get from sports. Maybe we should discuss something less controversial like religion or politics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 If you want to talk about those programs instead, my response would be who are their coaches, how long have they been there, what's the history of wrestling in their community, what are their USA wrestling programs like? Those are likely to be the main factors in why individuals aren't developing into state qualifiers at those schools. Just as they are the factors in why individuals at Garrett, Yorktown, South Adams, and Bluffton are. Why can Bluffton only fill 10 varsity spots when they have good tradition, coaching, etc.? Could it be that the kids realize that they have little to no chance of beating Bellmont no matter how hard they work? That is a bad way to look at it. Bellmont is 3A so they are not a huge school. And if anyone quits because they can't beat one of the best programs in the state they are not learning the lesson you are supposed to get from sports. Maybe we should discuss something less controversial like religion or politics... On that note, we could start a topic entitled "Is it possible for God to make something so heavy he couldn't lift it". That could generate some good discussion that's likely to get about as far as we have on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 wcs whats your obsession with having 16 state qualifiers? I want to know why 1 class is better than 2? I want to know why 2 classes is better than 1. I gave a scenario of a 2 class system with the exact same number of state qualifiers, and no one's been able to refute it or answer if it improves the quality of wrestling. If a class system is so good for the sport, then we should improve with the same number of state qualifiers right? So what's the issue with it then? the point is not to make us an instantaneous powerhouse, where its more of a fact of leveling the playing field so kids from smaller schools will have a much better chance of being able to go out and showcase their talents in the state tournament. I never said anything about making instantaneous powerhouses either. If every school was even with skilled wrestlers, big or small. I'd be all for it, if it meant we'd have the best wrestling state in the country. You'r comment about wanting to even the playing field suggests nothing about improving the quality of wrestling. Evening the playing field means you want to take good wrestling from big schools and redistribute it to the small schools. So we're going to end up exactly right where we are by your philosophy. Do you think states with class wrestling are wrestling on an even playing field, for instance Ohio? You think that more than 25% of Ohio's bottom half schools would make the state finals if it was single classed? I think St. Ed's beat Troy Chritsian (defending D-3 champion) 60-16. How has Ohio's class system even the playing field? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tito Santana Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 On that note, we could start a topic entitled "Is it possible for God to make something so heavy he couldn't lift it". That could generate some good discussion that's likely to get about as far as we have on this one. That's easy. He could, and he would lift it anyways. Do class supporters actually trust the IHSAA to not screw up class wrestling? If we go class, I bet they don't medal anymore kids than they do now, wind up losing tiers of tournament, and end up creating Sectionals that would cover more area than the Regionals do now. For those who know the northeast side of the state, how about a small size school Sectional that would include Fremont to Southern Wells/South Adams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBolt Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 We obviously need to seend the families from Mater Dei on "Mission" trips to these area's to help populate the schools with wrestlers named Weinzapfel, Snyder, Boots, Seimers, etc, etc, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 What about these schools too New Harmony 55 0 Howe Military 68 0 Indiana School for Blind 75 0 Indiana School for Deaf 97 0 White's 120 0 Daleville 199 0 Laf. Central Catholic 227 0 Whiting 264 0 Indianapolis Lutheran 287 0 Guerin Catholic 291 0 Rockville 291 0 Covington 293 0 West Central 294 0 Monroe Central 306 0 South Newton 308 0 Tecumseh 312 0 New Washington 314 0 Oakland City Wood Memorial 329 0 Lapel 333 0 Carroll (Flora) 352 0 Indianapolis Scecina 371 0 Northeastern 379 0 Wapahani 392 0 Park Tudor 411 0 Southwood 412 0 Westview 419 0 South Putnam 456 0 Knightstown 459 0 North Knox 489 0 North Judson (San Prairie) 493 0 Speedway 504 0 Lawrenceburg 518 0 Madison Grant 530 0 Alexandria 545 0 Indianapolis Washington 563 0 North Putnam 577 0 Mitchell 583 0 Harding 588 0 Eastbrook 626 0 Indianapolis Howe Academy 628 0 Knox 630 0 Heritage 638 0 Salem 638 0 Mississinewa 681 0 Batesville 688 0 West Vigo 689 0 Tippecanoe Valley 718 0 Same question - who are their coaches, how long have they been there, what's the history of wrestling in their community, what are their USA wrestling programs like? Also, just out of curiosity, do you have a list of the big schools with no state qualifiers from this time period? Maybe their coaches can't start a USA program because they have to coach the baseball team in the fall and football team in the spring. Maybe these coaches are lay coaches and can't take any more time off of work to start a wrestling club. Maybe almost all their kids are in spring sports and thus there is no reason to have a wrestling club. Maybe these kids go to a neighboring school's club. No need to throw all these coaches under a bus because you don't know the whole situation. Whether these coaches have clubs or not doesn't mean they don't want to win. Bellmont is a big school, they have almost 1000 students and are in the top 40% of the schools in the state in terms of enrollment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 On that note, we could start a topic entitled "Is it possible for God to make something so heavy he couldn't lift it". That could generate some good discussion that's likely to get about as far as we have on this one. That's easy. He could, and he would lift it anyways. Do class supporters actually trust the IHSAA to not screw up class wrestling? If we go class, I bet they don't medal anymore kids than they do now, wind up losing tiers of tournament, and end up creating Sectionals that would cover more area than the Regionals do now. For those who know the northeast side of the state, how about a small size school Sectional that would include Fremont to Southern Wells/South Adams. The IHSAA is always well responsive to a well thought out proposal from coaches or principals. The IHSAA is going to probably accept a 6th class proposal for the football play-offs because the coaches have gone through the proper channels and have a well thought out plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tito Santana Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 If IHSWCA meetings are as organized as the ones around 99-02 there will NEVER be class wrestling. I don't fault the leaders of the IHSWCA, but once some coaches(members not officers) got some liquid refreshment in them, it just deteriorated into a bunch of yelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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