Regionrat1 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 I like da push out rule in a freestyle/ keep um from fleeing da mat/ da big ole water buffalos who can't shoot a shot will turn into bull in da ring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 I happen to agree. I watched some of the Olympic qualifying matches, and the elite freestyle was pretty tough to watch. Same as collegiate wrestling is less exciting than high school, in my opinion. I personally disagree about the Olympics being tough to watch (don't know about the trials tho). I watched a lot of it this summer online, and found a lot of matches entertaining. Don't know if it were the rules or the speed of the matches, but I found many matches to be entertaining to watch. As for collegiate wrestling, that's the point I was trying to make. Back when the Brands were wrestling, and Gable was the head man at Iowa. Wrestling was fun to watch, in my opinion. Today's brand, is more defensive-minded and not quite as exciting. I'm looking at possibilities of tweaking the system to get back that excitement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 I like da push out rule in a freestyle/ keep um from fleeing da mat/ da big ole water buffalos who can't shoot a shot will turn into bull in da ring I love the "push out" or "step out" rule. Forces the line huggers to the middle of the mats and there's no discrepancy with fleeing the mat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 There is a difference between defensive wrestling and stalling. I do agree that the stalling calls need to be called quicker. But, looking at what warrendad said, I would want my kid to circle & block that last period and to wrestle more defensively to keep the lead rather than going full throttle and getting caught. Of course, I'd much rather watch a full out aggressive match, but stalling and "wrestling smart" are two different things. I agree that there is a difference. My style back in the day was predicated on beating you up physically, not necessarily by scoring. When I was in the match, rarely did I feel like I was stalling. But after watching them on tape, my perception changed a little bit. My problem with defensive wrestling and stalling is, there's a grey area as far a referee and fan interpretation goes. One ref may feel a situation is deemed stalling while another may feel its defensive aggression, if that makes since. I feel this needs to be addressed in certain areas, like referee's position. After one guy has been riding another guy for a minute or so. At what point does it become stalling or is he still trying to work a turn? Different refs will perceive this situation differently. Plus, in my experience, fans get restless in these types of situations. So that's why I suggest giving top guy 15-20 seconds to work a turn, then back to your feet. Makes it easier for the ref, by eliminating a judgment call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 There is a difference between defensive wrestling and stalling. I do agree that the stalling calls need to be called quicker. But, looking at what warrendad said, I would want my kid to circle & block that last period and to wrestle more defensively to keep the lead rather than going full throttle and getting caught. Of course, I'd much rather watch a full out aggressive match, but stalling and "wrestling smart" are two different things. I agree that there is a difference. My style back in the day was predicated on beating you up physically, not necessarily by scoring. When I was in the match, rarely did I feel like I was stalling. But after watching them on tape, my perception changed a little bit. My problem with defensive wrestling and stalling is, there's a grey area as far a referee and fan interpretation goes. One ref may feel a situation is deemed stalling while another may feel its defensive aggression, if that makes since. I feel this needs to be addressed in certain areas, like referee's position. After one guy has been riding another guy for a minute or so. At what point does it become stalling or is he still trying to work a turn? Different refs will perceive this situation differently. Plus, in my experience, fans get restless in these types of situations. So that's why I suggest giving top guy 15-20 seconds to work a turn, then back to your feet. Makes it easier for the ref, by eliminating a judgment call. Your proposed change would be very similar to MMA when the referee stands them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmarine77 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Quick ? If after 15- 20 sec the ref stands them up do you reward the bottom man with an escape?and if so I think that might be a disadvantage for the top man, in some cases, its not his fault the bottom man cant escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcatcountry97 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Let me save you all some time. The people who enjoy wrestling are the people who enjoy wrestling. All of these knuckleheads who dream of Wrestling gaining any sort of mainstream appeal, are doing just that, dreaming. Don't change the rules thinking you are going to get a bigger audience, isn't going to happen. Now, the fact that you want to keep putting people back on their feet and not letting them wrestle just explains that you don't have a very good grasp of wrestling. Ground wrestling is just as much, if not more important, than being on your feet. This is the same sort of mentality of those moron UFC fans who boo when a fight gets technical because they just want to see two idiots swing wildly and get a nasty knockout. Suggesting changing the rules to appeal to an audience is rediculous. (the wildcat is back!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 Quick ? If after 15- 20 sec the ref stands them up do you reward the bottom man with an escape?and if so I think that might be a disadvantage for the top man, in some cases, its not his fault the bottom man cant escape. The bottom man would not be rewarded an escape. It would be similar to freestyle wrestling when top guy gets a certain amount of time to work a turn. If unsuccessful, they go back to their feet. I want to keep the escape point though, to give the bottom man incentive to work up instead of just "bellying out." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scardy94 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 I agree with pushing stahling calls in the neutral position. I think this needs to be done in every match. However, I still do not like the idea of the top guy only getting 15 seconds to turn a guy. Agree to disagree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6minutes Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 If you want that then go watch freestyle, i think the folkstyle and freestyle rules are good, not perfect, but they are where they need to be. Also, i cant believe we have been talking this long about stalling and defensive wrestling and no one has mentioned JOSH HARPER. if wcs145 got his way than harp might not get out of sectionals lol ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 Let me first say welcome back and... how did that LeClere beating out Tsirtsis for varsity guarantee work out for you wildcat? Let me save you all some time. The people who enjoy wrestling are the people who enjoy wrestling. All of these knuckleheads who dream of Wrestling gaining any sort of mainstream appeal, are doing just that, dreaming. Don't change the rules thinking you are going to get a bigger audience, isn't going to happen. Yeah this is pretty much like telling a semi-state qualifer, "Hey, don't even dream of going to State because it just isn't happening for you no matter how hard you work." Just stop with the negative, pessimistic outlook. You're doing more of a disservice to wrestling with your attitude than what you think I am with my suggestions Now, the fact that you want to keep putting people back on their feet and not letting them wrestle just explains that you don't have a very good grasp of wrestling. Ground wrestling is just as much, if not more important, than being on your feet. This is the same sort of mentality of those moron UFC fans who boo when a fight gets technical because they just want to see two idiots swing wildly and get a nasty knockout. Yeah, talk to them Russians who keep whoopin everyone's butts about their grasp of wrestling. How much ground wrestling do you think they do vs. being on the feet? Suggesting changing the rules to appeal to an audience is rediculous. You do realize that a sport only thrives when there is an audience right? Similar to like how tv shows stay on the air because of tv ratings. So yeah, who would EVER want to appeal to an audience right??? : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 If you want that then go watch freestyle, i think the folkstyle and freestyle rules are good, not perfect, but they are where they need to be. Also, i cant believe we have been talking this long about stalling and defensive wrestling and no one has mentioned JOSH HARPER. if wcs145 got his way than harp might not get out of sectionals lol ;D You figured me out, the whole reason I've made these suggestions is to screw lil ole Josh Harper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutsdad Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 If you want a bigger audience, get more kids out!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
former130 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 If you want a bigger audience, get more kids out!!!! Thats what this discussion is trying to do. The more enteraining you make the sport the more people will want to do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 If you want a bigger audience, get more kids out!!!! Are people really this narrow-minded? This would be like telling Bengals fans, "Hey, your team wouldn't suck as much if they would just win." You think kids will just flock to this sport if you just ask them? You have to give them a reason to get and stay involved with the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroyleahcim Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 It all starts at the elementary school, parents, coaches, a.d., etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electricwrestler Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Let me save you all some time. The people who enjoy wrestling are the people who enjoy wrestling. All of these knuckleheads who dream of Wrestling gaining any sort of mainstream appeal, are doing just that, dreaming. Don't change the rules thinking you are going to get a bigger audience, isn't going to happen. Now, the fact that you want to keep putting people back on their feet and not letting them wrestle just explains that you don't have a very good grasp of wrestling. Ground wrestling is just as much, if not more important, than being on your feet. This is the same sort of mentality of those moron UFC fans who boo when a fight gets technical because they just want to see two idiots swing wildly and get a nasty knockout. Suggesting changing the rules to appeal to an audience is rediculous. (the wildcat is back!) Thank you for pointing out the importance of mat wrestling, folkstyle has already turned too far into a takedownfest with guys just taking down their opponents to let them back up for another takedown. The goal is supposedly to secure a pin. In my opinion two good mat technicians make for a far more exciting match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBolt Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 We - as the Wrestling Community - have to find a way of educating the masses as to the merits and pureness of the sport. I have met MANY people who have no direct connection to any one team, never wrestled themselves, and don't have any relationship to any of the kids, that sit in the bleechers every chance they get because they have gained a love of the sport somewhere in the past. I have noticed that the smaller schools seem to have a higher fan participation base. Of course this is just a personal observation and by no means scientific, but when a 2 A school without a full team can bring more fans than a 5A school with complete teams...I think you can see my point. Wrestling isn't for everyone, as a competitor OR as a fan. Some people just can't grasp it, nor can they stomach it. So the observation I ask you to consider from this is: Maybe Wrestling Fans are just as GREAT as the kids who dedicate themselves to the sport we all love! When I was in school, our wrestling team was rather successful, and our basketball team had trouble winning and inner-squad scrimmage (literally!). I once asked one of our cheerleaders when they might show up to a meet and show support for us (JUST ONCE). Her response was rather telling "Oh you guys always win" she said. I explained I wasn't asking them to come and cheer, I just wanted to see the appointed leaders of High School Spirit to show up and possibly bring some of their friends with them...They never showed up, but obviously we didn't need their help. ;D Will wrestling ever be mainstream? In someways I hope not. We certainly don't need "just average" types hanging around... ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 Thank you for pointing out the importance of mat wrestling, folkstyle has already turned too far into a takedownfest with guys just taking down their opponents to let them back up for another takedown. The goal is supposedly to secure a pin. In my opinion two good mat technicians make for a far more exciting match. Important for folkstyle? Yes it is, I'll never dispute that. But entertaining? Not in the least bit. College wrestling is stupid for having riding time. All it does is encourage the top guy to virtually just stall, while getting rewarded a point for it. One guy riding another guy for 2 minutes is a bore compared to 2 guys on their feet hand-fighting and shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 Will wrestling ever be mainstream? In someways I hope not. We certainly don't need "just average" types hanging around... ;D Mainstream like football, baseball, basketball? Probably never, but I'm ok with that. In my opinion though, I feel we can rival MMA if we're marketed properly. I just don't want to see wrestling programs keep getting cut at the rate they have been. I feel that wrestling can get a televised match on espn once a week or so if we do it correctly; instead of just having the NCAA Championships as our only one shining moment each year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatChick76 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 An earlier post mentioned that wrestling isn't for everyone. I do think that statement has a lot of truth to it. As we all know (since we're on here because we love wrestling), those tourneys can be exhausting, even if you're just siting around in the bleachers all day. I know several kids who no longer wrestle and their parents always say things like, "it was just too much", "the meets were too long", etc. The other wrestling moms and me like to joke about the "hurry up and wait" format of the meets. It takes a "special" kind of kid to want to wrestle (wrestling is probably more physically and mentally demanding than any other sport) and it takes "special" parents to work to help their kid succeed in the sport (because it does take A LOT of patience/effort). I'm not sure "rule changes" are going to bring about any increased participation or fan support for the sport. I do not want to see folkstyle rules get any closer to freestyle rules. They are two very diferent types of wrestling and I for one would like to see them stay that way. That being said...when I see the Peterson done (and done well), I want to see some points awarded (that might make me a happier fan ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 As we all know (since we're on here because we love wrestling), those tourneys can be exhausting, even if you're just siting around in the bleachers all day. I know several kids who no longer wrestle and their parents always say things like, "it was just too much", "the meets were too long", etc. Yes, wrestling is a lot different from most other sport since it's an "all day affair" most of the time. That being said, I had another idea to throw out there I forgot to bring up. Not sure how well it would work for high school, but I feel college could benefit from it. I participated in the Connersville Invitational when I was in high school. Big tournament, long 2 days with only 4 mats. Day 1, they went through 2 Championship rounds and I think 4 Consolation rounds. For each round, they went through all the weight classes. What I suggest is start with 103 and 112 and blow through all the rounds of them weight classes for Day 1, send these kids home, then move up to 119 and 125. I feel this would benefit the fans, especially the fans who are there to see specific wrestlers. Instead of having to sit through a whole day to watch a couple wrestlers of your interest wrestle a few times. You'll have a good idea which hours a weight class or wrestler of interest will be going. This won't hurt the die-hard fans because they'll be there all day regardless. It's the fans that don't want to be stuck to a bleacher all day that it would benefit I think. Like I said, not sure if this would work for high school. I was just using the Connersville Invite as an example. I'm not sure "rule changes" are going to bring about any increased participation or fan support for the sport. I'm not sure rule changes would change anything either. I just think its something that needs to be addressed and discussed over. Hence, this thread. I'm not going to be like wildcatcountry and have the "wrestling is what it is, so deal with it" attitude. I do not want to see folkstyle rules get any closer to freestyle rules. They are two very diferent types of wrestling and I for one would like to see them stay that way. On the contrary, freestyle and folkstyle are fairly similar as far as the wrestling aspect. In the neutral position, the styles are pretty similar. The difference is in the mat wrestling and exposures. Folkstyle, you're pretty much allowed to ride a guy out for a period without necessarily trying to score. Freestyle, when they realize it's become a stalemate. They put you back on your feet. The other perceived differences is really from the rule changes in freestyle the past 5 years or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatChick76 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Quote: On the contrary, freestyle and folkstyle are fairly similar as far as the wrestling aspect. In the neutral position, the styles are pretty similar. The difference is in the mat wrestling and exposures. Folkstyle, you're pretty much allowed to ride a guy out for a period without necessarily trying to score. Freestyle, when they realize it's become a stalemate. They put you back on your feet. The other perceived differences is really from the rule changes in freestyle the past 5 years or so. OK, I should clarify, that it is a lot of the rule changes over the last 5 years (in freestyle) that I'm not big on (which does indeed make folkstyle & freestyle seem a lot different). I like mat wrestling, not necessarily "riding", but when two guys are down on the mat wrestling aggressively trying to put in various moves it can be really intense...those are my favorite kinds of matches, and you just don't get that with freestyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 when two guys are down on the mat wrstling aggressively trying to put in various moves it can be really intense You like it when 2 guys are down on the mat eh? ;D I'M JUST KIDDING!!! Mind straight in the gutter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatChick76 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 I just knew someone was going to say something like that gutter brain!!! LOL!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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