Super_Fan Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) That's nothing new, nor is it earth shattering. From what I have seen at Carroll is kids usually start to specialize as freshmen or sophomores when they realize they need to put in more time just to be varsity in one sport instead of half time to be JV in two.So your saying those kids are only elite in wrestling because they specialize? Can't small school kids do the same thing of they choose to? So since we can now agree on this I think your only logical arguement is to increase the student population at smaller schools. Because even by classing wrestlin. Those smaller schools still won't have BETTER wrestlers because they will still play multiple sports... We may have more average or new wrestlers but not "quality in depth" as you speak of... Edited March 6, 2015 by Super_Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Not all kids go to college and a high school experience might be the highlight in their life and that silly spotlight. Then lets give another 16 kids that chance for the highlight of their life. What would it hurt that we have four kids under a spotlight instead of 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 This doesn't change in Ohio, Illinois, Minnesota, Iowa, New Mexico, or any state class or no class. Bad argument. I think it is a great argument. Those kids know they are the best of their weight in their class. Are you saying that elite athletes in those states don't want to be the best of the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 So your saying those kids are only elite in wrestling because they specialize? Can't small school kids do the same thing of they choose to? Well we established way earlier that to exponentially increase your chances of being a state placer/champion it helps to focus on wrestling 365 days a year. Small school kids don't focus on one sport as much for a multitude of reasons that we have discussed previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Fan Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Well we established way earlier that to exponentially increase your chances of being a state placer/champion it helps to focus on wrestling 365 days a year. Small school kids don't focus on one sport as much for a multitude of reasons that we have discussed previously. So how will class wrestling help them concentrate on one sport? It won't help our state get BETTER at wrestling... Just more average wrestlers Because they still won't be specialized... warsawwrestling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 We have statistics to prove that being at a larger school is beneficial. No maybe about this. Last time I checked statistics are still a maybe and not definite. It is apples to oranges you are running. The priorities and focuses are different from large schools to small schools. Just the focus from large school to large school is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 I think it is a great argument. Those kids know they are the best of their weight in their class. Are you saying that elite athletes in those states don't want to be the best of the best. They want to be the best and earn a state title. I have yet to read an article with a kid saying he felt cheated because of a classed system. I never read any articles with Robert Shepherd or Tyler Powers saying "Boy I really wish I would have gotten to wrestle David Taylor, my title is so worthless." Just as your football/basketball/softball teams want to be the best and earn a state title, your individuals will do the same. In the end they really could care less about the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Last time I checked statistics are still a maybe and not definite. It is apples to oranges you are running. The priorities and focuses are different from large schools to small schools. Just the focus from large school to large school is different. Statistics and data generally are more persuasive that arguments from emotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Fan Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) They want to be the best and earn a state title. I have yet to read an article with a kid saying he felt cheated because of a classed system. I never read any articles with Robert Shepherd or Tyler Powers saying "Boy I really wish I would have gotten to wrestle David Taylor, my title is so worthless." Just as your football/basketball/softball teams want to be the best and earn a state title, your individuals will do the same. In the end they really could care less about the class. This is just your opinion tho. I didn't graduate too long ago and I can say I liked the fact I had to beat every other kid in the state to be the best. If it would have classes while I was in school it would have taken something away from that acheivment. I obviously still would have been happy but it just wouldn't have been the same... That's also just my opinion...Statistics and data generally are more persuasive that arguments from emotion.But they can also be presented in a fashion to go for or against any arguement you choose... But agreed they are better... Edited March 6, 2015 by Super_Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 So how will class wrestling help them concentrate on one sport? It won't help our state get BETTER at wrestling... Just more average wrestlers Because they still won't be specialized... More kids wrestling is good right? For some odd reason you are failing to comprehend this. Average wrestlers will become good wrestlers over time. More kids with a little more success will encourage them to do more in the offseason. They will be more motivated to get over the hump and qualify for state or go from a qualifier to placer. Instead of not doing anything because they'll be varsity either way, they have EXTRA motivation to do camps, off-season tournaments, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Statistics and data generally are more persuasive that arguments from emotion. you are correct, and they typically set a mean and have a standard deviation. but the argument I'm defending is that the priorities are different, which in turn makes Super_Fan's point that it doesn't improve the quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 So how will class wrestling help them concentrate on one sport? It won't help our state get BETTER at wrestling... Just more average wrestlers Because they still won't be specialized... This has been discussed ad nauseam as well. More success and more recognition would logically lead to more interest. More interest logically leads to more time spent. Maybe a camp in the summer, maybe more attendance at optional open mats, maybe more ISWA/HYWAY meets. Kids don't have to be "all in" and specialize to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 More kids wrestling is good right? For some odd reason you are failing to comprehend this. Average wrestlers will become good wrestlers over time. More kids with a little more success will encourage them to do more in the offseason. They will be more motivated to get over the hump and qualify for state or go from a qualifier to placer. Instead of not doing anything because they'll be varsity either way, they have EXTRA motivation to do camps, off-season tournaments, etc. Not if they already have a varsity position, from what I hear..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Last time I checked statistics are still a maybe and not definite. It is apples to oranges you are running. The priorities and focuses are different from large schools to small schools. Just the focus from large school to large school is different. Big schools have more qualifiers, placers, and state champs no matter what way you want to look at it. Big schools have more wrestlers on their teams, they are thriving...small schools...not so much. Not if they already have a varsity position, from what I hear..... You failed to read the EXTRA MOTIVATION part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 They want to be the best and earn a state title. I have yet to read an article with a kid saying he felt cheated because of a classed system. I never read any articles with Robert Shepherd or Tyler Powers saying "Boy I really wish I would have gotten to wrestle David Taylor, my title is so worthless." Just as your football/basketball/softball teams want to be the best and earn a state title, your individuals will do the same. In the end they really could care less about the class. No, but I sure hear the ones that win in Indiana talk about how this is the best tournament that they wrestle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 This is just your opinion tho. I didn't graduate too long ago and I can say I liked the fact I had to beat every other kid in the state to be the best. If it would have classes while I was in school it would have taken something away from that acheivment. I obviously still would have been happy but it just wouldn't have been the same... That's also just my opinion... This is an argument from emotion. No, but I sure hear the ones that win in Indiana talk about how this is the best tournament that they wrestle. Argument from emotion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) Big schools have more qualifiers, placers, and state champs no matter what way you want to look at it. Big schools have more wrestlers on their teams, they are thriving...small schools...not so much. So you are saying there is not a small school that has a better wrestling history than any large school? Argument from emotion That one is fact. Watch Fox Sports!!! They did some nice interviews after the matches..... Edited March 6, 2015 by warsawwrestling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 This is just your opinion tho. I didn't graduate too long ago and I can say I liked the fact I had to beat every other kid in the state to be the best. If it would have classes while I was in school it would have taken something away from that acheivment. I obviously still would have been happy but it just wouldn't have been the same... That's also just my opinion... But they can also be presented in a fashion to go for or against any arguement you choose... But agreed they are better... It's my experience with numerous friends and teammates from college that were from Ohio, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. They never felt cheated by their accomplishments. It's also my experience being at a small and large school with both being successful. Your name would still be on the wall, your school would put a picture of you in the barn with the other state placers, your school would still celebrate your accomplishments. It would not change. No, but I sure hear the ones that win in Indiana talk about how this is the best tournament that they wrestle. Most our champs have gone to Fargo, Flo, Super 32, etc...this isn't the best tournament they wrestle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Most our champs have gone to Fargo, Flo, Super 32, etc...this isn't the best tournament they wrestle. I'm not saying I agreed with them, I'm just stating what was said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 That one is fact. Watch Fox Sports!!! They did some nice interviews after the matches..... Its a fact that some said this. It is an argument from emotion to use this as justification for keeping the tournament the same. I didn't think we were debating whether or not the statement was made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Statistics and data generally are more persuasive that arguments from emotion The two sides are looking at the same data and seeing different things, the argument that your side uses data, while the other is simply using emotion is an emotional argument itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 So you are saying there is not a small school that has a better wrestling history than any large school? I'm not saying I agreed with them, I'm just stating what was said. For every small school that has a tradition better than a big school I will show you 10 that have it worse than all big schools. All of our champs have lost at national tournaments... sorry no go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Fan Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 So are you saying small school kids will just have to work harder with this new off season wrestling and training? That's what it sounds like to me when you talk about tourneys camps and things to that nature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 The two sides are looking at the same data and seeing different things, the argument that your side uses data, while the other is simply using emotion is an emotional argument itself. Why didn't you ask Poppe about his worthless Michigan state medals? He has a couple, ask him how his high school gets 50 kids out for the team too. Wait it's classed he's worthless and his medal it tainted right? The data shows small schools are struggling mightily, yet you fail to see this and can't comprehend it due to living in Turtleland. A one class system isn't designed so that certain groups have advantages, it is designed because everyone is perceived to be equal. So are you saying small school kids will just have to work harder with this new off season wrestling and training? That's what it sounds like to me when you talk about tourneys camps and things to that nature? Obviously reading isn't your forte, so I'll say it again. Kids will have EXTRA MOTIVATION to put more time into the sport instead of having less motivation. Will they? Some will, some won't. If more kids do extra work it improves our wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Fan Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Why didn't you ask Poppe about his worthless Michigan state medals? He has a couple, ask him how his high school gets 50 kids out for the team too. Wait it's classed he's worthless and his medal it tainted right? The data shows small schools are struggling mightily, yet you fail to see this and can't comprehend it due to living in Turtleland. A one class system isn't designed so that certain groups have advantages, it is designed because everyone is perceived to be equal. But classing wrestling won't give small kids any more free time in the summer specialize. Which we agreed is needed and simply sounds like your saying they need to work harder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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