regionrumbler

First time all year OTR has disappointed me with a DUMB post.  Middle schoolers are just that in Indiana, middle schoolers.  They will have their glory on this page, but not today...there is a forum called youth and middle school designated just for them!!

AGREED

I was in attendance, and I love the commitment of the referees there, but some of them have no doubt watched little to no high level/NCAA wrestling, nor do they probably care to.  Age has nothing to do with it.  It was an older crew by and large at this SS, but I know plenty of older referees that still get after it, and are avid fans of the sport.   Many of them probably DVR good college matches and communicate with other referees.  At the Semi State level, HS matches should resemble those at the NCAA level with the only exception being actual rules differences.  There are many referees, NOT ALL, who just don't seem to be in tune with what's going on in wrestling in 2017.  I applaud the officials' associations that invite coaches to discuss trends each year, and this should be mandatory for both to attend in my opinion.

Throw45: You said it very well!  Sports evolve and each year there are nuances, which need to be learned by officials.  A few years ago it was scrambling, which required some adjusting by officials.  Bautista looked like a strong, high level wrestler and some of what he was doing reminded me of what colleges teach.  Many where I was watching, commented that his returns were only receiving gasps from people who don't watch 125 pounders on BTN.  It is a shame he isn't wrestling this weekend.  Harper was a college wrestler.  I'm guessing he knew Alex was doing some very good wrestling.  He probably also knew the official was likely to be cautious in his approach.  I may be wrong, but it seemed that Harper's boy, on restart after restart, put himself in the same position.  They must have been confident that they would either get the escape or entice Alex to lift again.  Both wrestlers did the same things and wound up in the exact same position 3-4 times.  If Gilman or Tomasello repeatedly returned a wrestler the same way Bautista did, Jim Gibbons would commend him.  College isn't High School, but the good kids are being taught many of the same methods in the Penn room, at RWA, etc, as colleges teach.   

Raider: Yes, you are right the NFHS gives officials lee-way/discretion. However, officials are trained on guidelines to use to know what they should consider "excessive" force. My point is we need to stay very close to those guidelines for consistency and to enhance the safety. If coaches and athlete's think it is very subjective, they often push the envelope to see how much they can get away with. The more consistently we apply the rules, the less ambiguity, the better. I am sure you and I want the same safety, just getting to it a little differently. This thread has proved many folks...fans, coaches, officials...saw Bautista's returns in a completely different way. Hopefully as trained officials, the disparity in opinion isn't as varied. I'd like to think officials are more unified in opinions, especially regarding safety rules and guidelines. Safety is a tough topic in the current climate of concussion protocol. Many people think we can't protect too much. I'm not in that camp. I think there are inherent risks in wrestling or any sport and we have to be careful to all be on the same page, otherwise we may create other unintended consequences.

Maligned: I appreciate you giving some insight on how the system works. My comments about Blue Bloods were partly in jest, but partly made with real respect to the traditionally strong big schools. I enjoy a good mix of the Blue and the New. It was awesome to watch Chesterton do very well at EC Saturday. Their comments in the paper Sunday were very refreshing as well. The Trojans seem to be a classy bunch. Your committee made a great decision on them and I'm sure you'll select another new, under the radar program, if deserving, this April. Keep up the good work.

Oh boy Hungus you stepped in my arena now! I have a few tickets to prove it. If the IHSAA was as diligent as the ISP, there would be no discussion needed. Lol. I don't blame the Judicial System for my tickets...I earn them and I own them. Your point is a good one, and a great analogy. Sometimes I speed and pay the piper and sometimes I don't.

Here's my analogy: I liken the uneven application of the transfer rules to when you, Caprino and I are driving in a convoy to the State Finals going 20mph over and the lights come on and I get pulled over and you and Joe get waved on! Lol. Unequal Justice!

Nice! I like that idea. "New blood" is a good slogan! "XXX" might get some votes too, especially if they misinterpret what kind of joint it is

Scholar: Perry = Blue Blood! You better start lobbying for your Lafayette folks. In the Olympics, they bribe the decision makers...maybe you can send the committee gifts or pick up their concession tab this weekend. Let the wealthiest man win! JK

Hungus:Maybe we're talking semantics, but isn't the IHSAA "involved" in the uneven application of their own rules, simply because they set up the system of reporting of violations...ie. The schools contesting portion of the process. Obviously they know the end result will be some people getting investigated and some not, for the exact same violations.

Scholar: Thank you for making it crystal clear. That's exactly what I called the flaw in the system earlier. Hypothetically, two families can violate the transfer rules in exactly the same way and one gets investigated and loses eligibilty, whereas the other doesn't even get investigated. Difference: in one case it was contested, the other it was not. Unequal justice. Seems very wrong.

Btw, you mentioned a midseason transfer earlier...yep, that happened too this year and that wrestler will be wrestling Friday night.

That does not void the "past link."  If they deem you are moving for athletic reasons, regardless of your move, you may be ruled ineligible.  I am not saying any of the kids should be ineligible.  I wish the Moran's were eligible!  It was stated the Morans had actually moved to the Portage district before the ruling.

Darrick Snyder, Brian Seltzer and Ed Pendoski have all enjoyed massive success in more than one part of the state and have been around long enough to see their talent start coaching the sport.

Wow!  Are those guys really that old!?      

Raider:  Not sure if reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, or if you just like being snarky...but whichever the case may be...I have re-read my post and in no way, did I say I am not interested in safety.  I think officials, coaches and athletes deserve to know what those safety guidelines are and adhere to them, with as little subjectivity as possible.  I am a coach, official and a parent of four athletes in different sports.  It is not fair to anybody, most of all an official to use an "I'll know it when I see it approach."  If we are trained that certain moves are legal and certain ones are unsafe and illegal, then we should closely adhere to those rules.  The safety rules in all sports are crafted by medical experts nationally, so I think we should rely on them.  Coaches and athletes are at a big disadvantage if officials penalize legal moves.  There is always some subjectivity, but it should be minimized as much as possible.  The moves described on this board were textbook legal from what I saw and what you and others described.  Closely following the National Federation safety rules and guidelines, and consistency in the enforcement, will enhance safety, not reduce it, in my opinion.  Nothing would bother me more as an official, than to have "a kid carted off" under my watch.  

Colfax:  Are you saying you saw the Portage HWY perform a legal move (returned his own knee to the mat before, or as, he planted his opponent on the mat) and you applaud the ref for calling a violation?  If so, are we all so concerned with safety that we are okay with refs making up their own safety rules as they go?  How can a wrestler or coach have any idea what is okay to do, if it is all going to be subjective...for each official to decide on his own?  I don't think officials want that much discretion.  

Karl Hungus: You're probably right, but that "signing off" part, seems to be a major flaw in the system.  Why should the Morans be punished, because their prior school contests, whereas Goehrings and Demiens in another part of the state remain eligible, because their respective schools don't, when the rule violated is exactly the same?  Why doesn't the IHSAA determine each case on its own merits, and not leave it up to the schools discretion?  Justice should be fair by definition, and meted out equally.  As long as individual schools have a say in it, it can't be equal treatment to each athlete, because schools will differ in their approach.  The IHSAA should objectively look at each situation and rule independently. Shouldn't they?  Am I missing something?  If so, please set me straight!

It really sickens me to know Jonathon Moran lost something he can never get back, his senior season, through no fault of his own.  As coaches, parents and fans we get so tired of seeing kids quit sports late in their careers, for whatever reason, because we know from experience, what a special time of life high school is.  We try hard to keep kids involved...and yet here is a passionate, hard-working kid who was denied the opportunity to continue to pursue his passion.  If he wasn't as passionate and hard-working, he probably would not have achieved as much success, so...his school would have been much less likely to contest the transfer.  Which is yet another reason it shouldn't be left to the school's discretion.  Wouldn't we find it farcical to do the same thing with regard to a high academic achiever?  Example: A very gifted science student wishes to transfer to a neighboring school, because it has a better Science Department and a well respected Engineering Club.  Would anybody try to stop that academic transfer?    

Good point Maligned!  In any sport, as a coach and fan, I often re-live one or two decisions in a match or game, but it's better to look at the whole match and not obsess over one of the bad decisions I made.  I'll let others do that.  LOL. I looked at the seeds and results and you're right, Harrison left a few points on the mat.  A quick glance shows they had two #1's lose.  One lost to a 4 and one to a 3.  In the 4 over 1, the Harrison #1 was undefeated. Ouch!   

Culp & Caprino...has a nice ring to it.  Law Firm/PR Firm?  Agents for future Olympians! 

Scholar:  Agreed. Penn's 120 transfer definitely benefited from questionable calls in both matches he wrestled.  Every time I watched him this season (probably because he's similar weight to the Morans) it made me question the transfer/eligibility criteria.  The Penn kid transferred and had trained at Penn and been coached by Harper in the off-season.  He remained eligible, whereas the IHSAA's "undue influence clause" was used to rule the Morans ineligible, because Vega had done the exact same thing. It cost the Morans their senior and sophomore seasons.  Last year at this time they were two of the rising stars out of the EC SS. So inconsistent. 

I concur MCKAJC.  I was within a few feet and was very surprised with those calls.  Bautista was in a very tough spot.  He couldn't afford to cut him late, couldn't take a chance on not returning him when the Penn kid stood up each time and couldn't drop to an ankle or Baut would've surely been called for stalling...so he returned him, but went down in an almost textbook return it seemed from my vantage point.  Tough calls for HC and Bautista!

It looks like the controversial stalling calls in the McCartney/Demien match put Penn in Team State and left Harrison out. (They each have 2 points still available.) If I understand the scoring, that match was a 12 point swing.  The chances of the lesser known Raiders being voted in over Perry, Chesterton, Castle or Crown Point, probably aren't good.  

It's you.

Thanks Fabio!! (and Joe and Jason)

For adding some hilarity to a gloomy, gray Monday!

Thank you Fireproof!

What is the start time in the Berry Bowl tomorrow?

Re 120: What a weight class! 3 of the 4 SQs in that conf come to the EC SS, which is interesting, since the NCC is generally thought of as a central Indiana league. Each of the 3 regionals up here have 3 very good 120s. 3 or 4 are SQs. So there will likely be at least 6 SQs/Placers at 120 in the EC SS. Wow! Should be fun to watch.