Coaching question

[812Fan]

Hi, I have a question for all the coaches out there. I was never a wrestler, played Baseball, Basketball and Track, but I'm having a hard time understanding some of the coaching methods used by alot of wrestling coaches. My son is not a state champ, he is however top 10 or better in the state at his age group, and he is currently a middle school wrestler. My question is, are their coaches out there who teach a kid moves to specialize in based on what his body type and wrestling style best suits him? I know in other sports you train a pitcher as a pitcher and a catcher as a catcher, and a center as a center. Mostly what I see is coaches showing some really good moves but not necessarily something that will work for my son. When I ask what I need to do to push him in the right direction and what we need to do to get him specialized in 4 or 5 moves that fit his style, I always get, "Mat time or it will fall in to place with maturity" Is this just normal or is it wrong to want someone to work with him on moves specific to him? Not being critical, we have wonderful coaches, just wanting some clarity! What I'm referring to specifically is, leg riding just seems a waste for a short stocky kid as does a cross body ride! Certain moves just flow and work better for certain body types and styles of wrestling.

[cyoung]

I'll go on this one. I coach middle school wrestling at Doe Creek Middle school, and have for the last several years. I'd say we're a very good MS team (MS State- 1st 2009, 2nd 2012). (Not the top in the state, but top ten or better for sure) Anyways, I show most moves I know to my middle school boys, full aware that I have a variety of different body types that will be able to do some moves and not be able to do others. I will even tell the boys, for example, "most big guys this probably isn't for you." I don't have the luxury of a huge coaching staff (2 of us for 40-60 boys), so some kids are learning moves that I know they'll never use. I have no problem with this, and here's the reason why........

 

What's to say that tomorrow that they don't have a match against a kid who uses this move as their bread and butter. Practicing a move, learning the intricacies of a move, etc. will my wrestler defend that move. I think it's important that the kid has a full knowledge base on the moves. Also, what if he grows a great deal, or gets skinnier, or gains weight, and his wrestling offensive therefore changes?! I understand you would want someone to fully train him for moves specific to him. If he was older, I would grasp that even more. At his current age level, I would say that he needs to be a sponge and learn as many moves as he can. It's not a bad thing!

[dinubus]

Wrestling is a sport, not a game.  There are many more facets to it, and a larger knowledge base never hurts, whereas a smaller one can.  Those that have the money base to pay for a 1 on 1 coach to competitor ratio will probably succeed in building a good foundation just for that kid.  However, this more 1-dimensional coaching also has a huge disadvantage - the time it takes to rebuild once your limitations are discovered by an opponent.

 

Track is also a sport, but the coaches don't just work on one thing with the kid.  They have them engage in the whole activity (100 m, or whatever) to get more -track time- just like your coaches are telling your son to get more mat time.  They may have them work on their start over and over again, kind of like your coaches probably have your son work on his stance or shot over and over again because this is one major portion of the whole.  Outside of that, they may give lots of general pointers used over the years by other people who ran the 100m.  In wrestling, the coaches also say- big guys, this one is for you, or small guys, try this.  I hope you get the point.

[812Fan]

I appreciate you all responding and I don't disagree with you on the whole sponge huge knowledge base thing. What I see so much though is the guy that's a novice or a schoolboy and winning Nationals and State usually, not always, either a) has a father for a coach or works in a year round wrestling school with a great coaching staff. That being said, when you look at the guys in high school that are State champs and even some of those younger guys, they always have that go to takedown or that tilt, or that cradle, those 2 or 3 moves that the are great with. At what point should they start to develop those favorite moves to perfect? Without great kids on their team and in their weight class in shool to push them, the disadvantage is already there.

[cyoung]

The perfecting of a few moves should start ASAP, and this would be done with countless hours of drilling with perfect technique. It doesn't come immediately after learning a new move suited for your son.

 

Chris Young

[nosoccermomhere]

In a group setting and especial a school team setting, you are not going to get the extra attention to develope what you are looking for.  If this is just a rec sport for them that they participate in just during the school year then, I would suggest staying after practice a few minutes to get a leg up on the compition.  Maybe find a team mate that is willing to stay after too and they can work on "big man" moves together.  If he wants more out of it than just something to do in the winter, then you can look into a private training facility.  There are some very good ones all around the state.  But even there you won't get the private time that you are looking for without paying for private sessions.  Another idea is videos.  Watch the videos made on the specific moves that you are wanting your son to run and work on them with him, then he can take it back to his practice room and practice running it live in there.

  That being said, the coaches above are correct, there is nothing wrong with learning a lot of different moves. The first step in learning how to stop a move is learning how to run it.  Not to mention, just because your son is a big boy, doesn't mean he has to wrestle like one.  Some of the more successfull upper weight wrestlers are better than everyone else their size because they don't wrestler like a "big man".  They work on their speed, balance and technique that you usually only see run by smaller weights.  Most upper weight wrestlers just accept that they are a big man and that they have to wrestle a certain way.

  Figure out what HE wants out of this sport, then figure out what his strengths are and find a coach and facility with the right training partners for your son.

Good Luck

[812Fan]

I so appreciate all the suggestions, I guess here is what I want. My kid isn't a "Big Boy" He is @ 140, but is fairly average in height and uses upper body strength for most of his success. Leg riding isn't his thing and there really aren't any year round wrestling schools here within an hour drive of us. The middle school team he is on has no competetion for him, he won't get pushed much in middle school season next year either. The problem comes in when we do ISWA tournaments, he just can't seem to crack that top 3 in the state tournaments (Folkstyle, Freestyle, Greco) He wins most of the local ISWA stuff, Most but not all. I guess what I'm asking is what would you all recommend? Find a high school kid to work with him? Drive an hour and a half 1 way 2 times a week to get him in a great club? He has an extraordinary work ethic, on the mat 3 or 4 days a week, in the gym 3 or 4 days also, the kid wants it bad and I feel like he's doing everything he can to make it happen, and at this point, his getting to the next level kind of depends on the opportunities I can get him.  There are very few State champs that have come from our area here in the last 15 years and the normal wrestling routine that all the high schoolers go through here just isn't getting it done. We don't have the CIA's and Regions, and Red Cobra's here, I want someone to watch him and say "Based on how you wrestle, this is what you will be most proficient with, and let's get you good at that cheap tilt, and Turk and maybe Cradles." I just want to give him the best opportunities I can, just not sure how to proceed. Doing the local club and going to camps in the summer just doesn't seem to be an equal to a great training partner and great competition.

 

Thanks again!

[randalllynch]

What area of Indiana do you live?

[hoosierdad]

With the exception of a great middle school coach that has worked with my son!  ;D We are in a similar situation. I know the high school is starting to see the difference in competition when we wrestle the Yorktowns and Mater Dei's, what do we need to do to compete with these schools and what can I do to get my son on the top of the podium?

 

[812Fan]

Crawford County!

[wolfpackwrestling]

Who in Crawford County is showing leg riding? 

[The Guru]

A Modest Experiment - By Ray Brinzer

 

Most seasons, I'm experimenting with something.  This spring, it was the souplesse.

 

When I began coaching, I taught the souplesse more or less as it was taught to me:  I demonstrated it, gave the athletes a little time to throw back arches from their feet, and then told them to hit it.  I happened to be working with some pretty good high school athletes, so it was mostly a matter of getting them over their fear; it is not a technically demanding move, after all.

 

As I began to coach younger athletes, I began to see kids who apparently had the correct idea fail to execute the throw.  Upon investigation, I found that if you replaced an athlete's partner (usually his own size) with another 20 pounds lighter, the problem often went away.  So, power was a problem.  In rarer cases, a strong athlete would throw in a very unnatural way.  It took me a few minutes to figure out the first fellow who had this problem... but asking him to do a simple back bridge cleared it right up.  He could scarcely lift his butt from the ground.  Here we had a flexibility issue.

 

So, while the souplesse is technically simple (despite allowing for considerable variation), it turns out to be physically demanding. A stunning revelation, I know.

 

When you think through the implications, though, things get interesting. Every move must have physical requirements, after all.  For any technique, you must be able to apply some force, through some range of motion, with some quickness.

 

We tend not to consider the physical requirments of less dramatic moves, but most coaches have noticed that some athletes struggle with certain things. At best, we try to guide athletes toward things which work for them, and chalk the differences up to "talent".  On a large team, though, an athlete may receive little guidance, and it's very easy to run down a blind alley in wrestling.

 

When an athlete can perform a move correctly in practice, but not in competition, the problem is even harder to see.

 

Consider the stand-up, for instance.  At the youth level, a lot of coaches prefer it to, say, the sit-out because it "keeps things simple".  This is true enough; the problem is, the stand-up is far more physically demanding.

 

We're asking an athlete not just to stand up, but to come to his feet while driving backward into his opponent.  Rather than throw his arms wide, which is the natural thing to do when keeping one's balance, we demand that he keep his elbows in, and fight for hand control as he stands.  And all this is to be done with what amounts to a wild monkey on his back, trying to fling him unpredictably this way and that.

 

Now, in case you hadn't noticed, a lot of little kids don't have very good balance.  So, the same lad who can demonstrate a perfect stand-up cannot necessarily perform one in competition.  Off the whistle he'll begin the move as he was taught, lose his balance, post, and then instinctively distort the move, searching desperately for something which will actually work.  The distortions often become habits which long outlast the physical limitations which created them.

 

So, after a lost match Dad loudly inquires, employing the appropriate profanity, how many times they've drilled the stand-up, and why the boy can't hit a simple move.  His son, already upset by the loss, generally does not know that the correct answer is, "I'm physically incapable of doing that," so instead of answering he bursts into tears.  This prompts more productive commentary from Dad.

 

Ah, the wholesome joys of youth wrestling.

 

Considering why an athlete cannot perform a move well can tell us a lot about the move.  When we know what it takes to hit the move successfully, we can train athletes up to it, rather than demonstrate and hope for the best. But there's more to be gained than that.

 

The traits which distinguish an athlete who cannot hit (e.g.) a souplesse from one who can may, in part, also distinguish an athlete with an outstanding souplesse to one who can hit the move only tolerably well.  This opens up a path for progress. All too often, our better athletes reach a point where they can't see clearly what they must do to improve further.  Breaking things down is part of figuring out how to build better things.

 

So, the experiment?  This freestyle/Greco season, I decided not to show the souplesse to athletes until they could successfully perform a back handspring. The correlation I'd noticed long ago:  an athlete who can souplesse well can generally be taught a back handspring in a matter of minutes.  It stood to reason that the correlation would work both ways.

 

The result was interesting:  virtually every athlete who graduated to the "souplesse group" stuck the souplesse on the first try.  Thus, it's a pretty good guess that the exercises gymnasts use to prepare for the back handspring are relevant to performing the souplesse.

 

And here we start to see the outline of perhaps the greatest tool a coach can have:  a plan.

[Coach Trapp]

Like any sport, starting out you coach kids in general...rules, fundamentals, etc...as that kid starts to excel and develop you get more specific...as a wrestling coach of a whole team, I can't coach each kid individually...at least not during team practice...not enough time...but I will start to see what works for certain kids and what doesn't...some kids are short, some kids are tall, some kids are quicker than others, some kids are stronger than others, some kids like certain moves...a coach should be able see what works and what doesn't for his kids...he should spend time covering a whole g***NO NO NO*** of moves and then stress to the individual to perfect what works for them...I tell my kids, they will be exposed to hundreds of moves but will only end up using a handful...a good coach will coach to their kids strengths...he will also expose his weaknesses...but that is for the wrestler to learn from and become better...

 

...it takes more than just "mat time"...it takes the right kind of mat time...practice doesn't make perfect...perfect practice makes perfect...