WaltHarris
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Wrestling both fs and fk in college & high school
WaltHarris replied to WaltHarris's topic in Past Discussions
I think that is an accurate statement. I just hope for more of the wrestling community to push the issue with NFHS and NCAA. Really, imop it's more the NCAA. If the NCAA goes to both fs and fk, then I believe high school will follow. -
Wrestling both fs and fk in college & high school
WaltHarris replied to WaltHarris's topic in Past Discussions
Amen! Just look at the FIFA fiasco this week as one of a number of examples. Is soccer going to decrease in popularity because FIFA is (and pretty much always has been) corrupt? No. People will still go to world cup games by the thousands. We've had the exact same thing occur in folkstyle (with the previous OT ride-out rule) of a very long period of our history: "Maurer (43-1) was the champ in 2002 at 145 and at 130 in 2001 as a freshman and made it three in a row this trip in a dramatic 1-1 overtime victory on criteria over Mishawaka’s Alex Dolly (46-1) for the 171 pound championship." -
Wrestling both fs and fk in college & high school
WaltHarris replied to WaltHarris's topic in Past Discussions
One could suggest a new model where we wrestle fs & fk would allow coaches two opportunities for having a state champion. 14 in fs and 14 in fk. -
Great article in Win Magazine by Kyle Dake. I agree with much of what he has to say. Leadership needs to come from the NCAA on this issue. We should be wrestling both folkstyle and freestyle in college and high school. http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/launch.aspx?pbid=1c845371-e305-4a5a-b39a-a0e3e5cc859c
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I don't know how many times I can say this: Y2 wasn't the only person disappointed by this ordeal. The previous thread (and nearly every conversation I had at state) showed many people are upset. ISWA just created an unfair situation. Many of us emailed and called in March and asked if there were going to be exceptions to the 2 tournament qualifier. Folks either did not receive a response or were told no exceptions. Then on April 29, the waiver letter comes out and a bunch of exceptions are made. Now we have unqualified wrestlers (meaning those without 2 tournaments) who placed high and are going to Fargo or Schoolboy Duals. I think the ISWA will be fine in the long run if they improve communication moving forward. But there is no arguing this was a raw deal for those who obeyed the rule. And there is no debating that folks are going to be quite skeptical of obeying rules for the next few years because the organization showed membership that rules really don't matter right now. To have one kid go to Fargo whose family spent $400 to travel to Indy to get a fs qualifier in and another kid go to Fargo who didn't wrestling a single fs qualifier because he had prom is not fair. And it is not fair solely because the ISWA created this situation. Everything will be fine for the ISWA so long as they as they engage membership in more online (facebook, twitter, etc.) discussion and there is never a repeat of this again.
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I do not think the post was fair to Y2. Imop, he is just advocating for an improved situation. And he is clearly not the only one. When a person reads the full thread, one sees plenty of folks with the same position. Most reasonable people want a strong and vibrant ISWA. It benefits us all. A few tweaks to increase transparency is all it would really take. A few examples: -Stream board meeting online (google hangouts are free) -Improve communication. Notable policy changes announced on ISWA home page news. Or via email. -Maybe bring back the old monthly/quarterly newsletter via email or Facebook. -If we continue to have a qualification process, provide a transparent list on ISWA.com of those who are qualified. -Engage membership in robust discussion about major changes. (Facebook or IndianaMat or Email or Twitter) Not everyone lives in or around Indianapolis. Modern technology can help tremendously with this issue. The community outside Indianapolis needs the opportunity to participate without making a six hour roundtrip. The heart of this issue was/is fairness. There was a lack of communication about the 2 qualifier rule. People did not find out till late in the game due to the lack of communication. Then a letter comes out to clubs (not the general public) about a waiver, which confirmed members’ fears about the lack of communication creating an unfair situation. Just utilizing a few free or cheap technologies for communication would solve 99% of the issue. I think ISWA will be just fine in the long run by simply proactively using online tools already at their disposal.
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Does anyone know the number of unqualified wrestlers who ended up in the top 3 for cadet and juniors and top 2 for schoolboys?
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By allowing waivers, they are opening themselves up to significant issues. A parent told me if his son misses a Schoolboys Duals slot because of an unqualified wrestler, he was going to visit a lawyer on Monday. It’s that serious for some folks. This is just my opinion. I think most people on here love the ISWA. I firmly believe most commenters want to see the ISWA be a vibrant and strong organization. Despite the fact many of us were disappointed by the two event rule, we still loved the ISWA and the sport so much we just dealt with it. Oh, there might be a few true haters out there, but they probably number less than 10 folks. And because so many us care about the organization, we tried to warn the ISWA this exact problem would happen back in March. For most people, the warnings came from a place of genuine care about the state of wrestling within the ISWA. Now there is a waiver mentioned in a letter on April 29. The wrestling community is once again responding and pleading with the ISWA. Once again, for most of the membership this coming from a place where folks are hoping to protect the organization. And once again, nothing but silence. None of this stress was necessary. And all of it could be relieved with one blast email or post to iswa.com or Facebook. Some are worried about a split. What the community really should be concerned about is an organization beset by issues that becomes non-functional. No reasonable person wants that to happen.
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This is a straightforward issue of fairness. There was a rule. People (including those like me who disagreed with it) sacrificed and followed the rule. I am just stunned by the lack of communication from ISWA. If waivers are granted that creates inherent inequity. And that is not fair. This is why most governments have laws banning similar practices. If a bureaucrat gives a special favor like a waiver to a close friend or business customer who spends money with him, that is not fair to the rest of the community. The only fair thing is to maintain the rule. Have two events, your in. Have less than two events, your out.
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A local coach who has coached many Team Indiana trips was talking about the possibility of a waiver from the ISWA based upon his conversation with them back in March. He was always cautious to say its just been talked about, but never confirmed. So at least since March, the discussion of a waiver was under consideration most likely. So it would seem many folk's beliefs that a waiver was in the works for a long period does have a basis.
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We are now at almost 20 wrestlers with one or zero qualifying events in trackwrestling. Some them undoubtedly wrestled at Carmel Duals and are actually qualified because Carmel Duals was not on trackwrestling. That is totally fine for those kids. But some I know are not.
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It really comes down to an issue of fairness. Wrestlers gave up baseball, track meets, jobs, proms to meet the criteria the ISWA established. Parents and guardians gave up personal time and money to meet the criteria the ISWA established. Several coaches in the north created fs tournaments with little notice to help ALL kids in the north have a shot at meeting the ISWA established criteria. ISWA did not respond to a number of emails in February and March asking for clarification on the criteria. So all members had to go on was the very clear sentence on the ISWA web site: "All participants MUST compete in a minimum of 2 local freestyle tournaments in order to compete at the state event." The ISWA web site doesn't say "we would like for wrestlers to have two". It doesn't say "if you have a prom or broken finger, you can get a waiver." The ISWA web site clearly says "MUST." It is only fair to those who met the criteria the ISWA established that everyone is held to the same standard.
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Look, I was going to take a middle school team to viper pit duals. Got everyone's buy in at club. Made all the plans. Then the two tournament qualifier rules is introduced for fs state by ISWA. I understood why the ISWA brought about the rule. Personally, I disagreed with two tournaments, but I just dealt with it. Canceled the viper pit plans. All the kids were disappointed. The kids didn't get to wrestle in a really dang good national tournament at viper. Told my grandson we just have to do this. Went to a local fs tournament instead that was about two hours away. Like Y2, we also had some kids who just stopped wrestling because they weren't going to get two qualifiers in because work, proms, baseball and so forth. I am not trying to be cynical. I really love and respect the ISWA. But if wrestlers and parents are manufacturing reasons to get waivers, well sir, I find that very distressing. Particularly because I am not sure how the ISWA could even evaluate requests for a waiver. If a kid is from Rising Sun, how does the ISWA really know if he did break his finger five weeks ago? If a kid is from LaPorte, how does the ISWA really know the kid was on the travel soccer team or had to attend a wedding? Too much margin for error in granting waivers. Too much room for inequities. Too much legal liability. ISWA made a rule. Now the organization and those of us in the membership will need to stick with the rule.
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I could not agree more. Sadly, we live in a litigious society. I hope for the sake of everyone, the issue is addressed prior to the tournament by removing unqualified wrestlers proactively. Once this weekend happens, the toothpaste is out of the tube and there will be no putting it back in. Only a mess to try to clean up.
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IHSWCA Team State at Fort Wayne Complaints/Suggestions
WaltHarris replied to alcorntr's topic in Past Discussions
tskin, do not let it get you down. A lot of us feel the Ft. Wayne Coliseum is an excellent location. The Coliseum has more of a "State" feel to it than any high school venue would. I am really out of my depth on this matter. But does IndianaMat have the capacity to broadcast the event through its web site? Then during the live stream place advertisers logos in the corner of the screen and split revenue IHSWCA? I know very little about such web broadcasting, so please forgiven me if I am asking a silly question. -
Wow. I cannot believe you put together this data so quickly, Y2! Well when I look at the data, I do clearly see multiple wrestlers with only 1 event who are registered in trackwrestling for state. I wonder if the ISWA will be proactively contacting any registrant daily who does not have 2 events to let the person know their registration for state will be invalidated?
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IHSWCA Team State at Fort Wayne Complaints/Suggestions
WaltHarris replied to alcorntr's topic in Past Discussions
Danny, you are one of the most dedicated coaches in the state. Thanks for all you do for ALL the kids. -
How will ISWA validate wrestlers have the two qualifying fs events required to enter FS State? I ask because of an interesting conversation. Another parent said he registered his son for state. I mentioned his son only attended one fs event I knew of. The parent said, "Yah, but they can't check everyone. And not all the fs tourneys are on trackwrestling. So they can't really know. Plus I hear they're granting a bunch of waivers. What is the ISWA going to do, turn us away at weigh-ins?" Honestly, I do not know how many of the events are on trackwrestling and can be validated. And I have no idea if his statement about waivers is accurate. I can only say others at practice suggested there are a few wrestlers registered for state who do not have two fs events. If wrestlers without the proper qualification are allowed to enter and earn Team Indiana spots, then I think we could have notable issues next week.
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IHSWCA Team State at Fort Wayne Complaints/Suggestions
WaltHarris replied to alcorntr's topic in Past Discussions
Best. Idea. Ever. Thank you for making me smile this early in the morning. -
IHSWCA Team State at Fort Wayne Complaints/Suggestions
WaltHarris replied to alcorntr's topic in Past Discussions
I am very grateful it is in Ft. Wayne. As Y2 said, it gives us room to grow. I also like warsaw's idea of perhaps rotating the team state location. Maybe two years in the north, two years in the central and two years in the south. Then start the rotation over again. He's right that a rotation could help build up more momentum and fan base around the team state. Thank you Mr. McCormick for all your work in getting this done for the kids. -
There are three things I would love to see change with wrestling before I become fertilizer for dandelions. First, move Indiana to class wrestling. All the Midwest states have class wrestling. Class wrestling will happen in Indiana. It is inevitable as the sunrise. It is just a question of class wrestling coming in 2 or 4 or 10 years. But it will happen. Second, move to both folkstyle and freestyle in high school and college during the regular season. If the US wrestling community is serious about improving our freestyle skills, this is the way. College has been more open to change than high school, so I think it would need to happen in colleges first. Track has multiple events. Swimming has multiple events. Tennis has multiple events. I would love to see wrestling have multiple events/styles. A longshot, though. Third, use three-man mechanics for officials at semi-state and state. I know we have a tough time getting officials. It’s a thankless job. But imop the three-man officiating mechanics used by freestyle/Greco officials are much better. It also relieves pressure on officials. This could happen, but I don’t hear much talk about it on the national level.
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Much of what you are stating is accurate from a certain perspective. I would slightly disagree with the suggestion that "Wrestlers are now choosing what style to wrestle, and they are choosing folkstyle." Imop, what actually occurred was many adults that were ignorant/scared/uneducated about freestyle complained about freestyle for years. Then when Nuway, Flo, et. al. came around, it was like a loophole was created in the wrestling 'system' that had existed for decades. Basically, the adults who ignorantly saw freestyle has some form of sissified European/Asian wrestling didn't ever have to have their kid wrestle freestyle again. Now we have a whole generation of kids who were taught by their adult parents that freestyle=bad and are now conditioned as teenagers to ignore or marginalize it. I'm as red, white and blue of a traditionalist American as they come. But the fact is going back for decades the US wrestling community has had a faction of ugly Americans who erroneously believe that wrestling freestyle will create some form of European socialism to take over American high school wrestling and give birth to the anti-Christ. Ok, I'm joking around a bit. But those of you who have been around for decades and seen all this know what I'm referring to.
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Pretty much what I thought too. It's the revenues ISWA folkstyle state generates. I think it just comes back to the larger issue. USAW forced ISWA to have folkstyle state. In my estimation, that event gutted freestyle in Indiana (and other states). Now USAW realizes they have severely impaired their freestyle pipeline because the next generation has done almost nothing but wrestle folkstyle. USAW is now asking ISWA and many other states to improve participation in freestyle, but it's like putting the toothpaste back in the tube. Personally, I would eliminate ISWA folkstyle state for high schoolers. I think and hope that would assist with freestyle participation. But this is really all just a guessing game.
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What teams are attending?
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I think this begs a larger question. Why do we need an ISWA folkstyle state for high school wrestlers? Especially two weeks after IHSAA state. Imop, there is a major benefit to having ISWA folkstyle state for pee-wee through cadet (meaning cadets not in hs). But I don't see the benefit for hs wrestlers. I know there are some reasons for ISWA folkstyle state for hs kids like the triple crown, revenue and qualifying for folkstyle nationals. But imop those aren't beneficial enough to keep us from starting freestyle immediately the week after IHSAA state.
