1oldwrestler

ccbig - you are absolutely right. I've seen guys who haven't wrestled since their freshman years, come out after a two year lay off from the sport, wrestle heavy weight and make semi state. But this is more acceptable, apparently, because they are upper classmen. My point with this weight class discussion is that it needs to focus on what makes the sport better, not preventing weight classes that are dominated by underclassmen because "it's not fair that a kid get a varsity letter based soley on his size and not his athletic ability." Same could be said of the big boys. And everyone who doesn't like the lower weight classes is going to jump up and down and say that they think 285 should be changed too. However, their passion for that change isn't nearly as great as it is for the change in the lower weights.

I'm certainly not against reducing forfeits. If going up to 106/107 will accomplish, great! But let's not focus on how we need to limit varsity opportunities for underclassmen. If the lower weights are dominated by underclassmen and there aren't as many ffts, how can that be bad? I really don't think underclassmen getting varsity letters is the main or even a minor reason our sport has has trouble with numbers.

Joe - how does that hurt the sport? Because some big kid has to wrestle jv for a year or two while his smaller friend gets a varsity letter all four years in wrestling? If that's what pushes the kid away from the sport, then he doesn't have what it takes to be a wrestler in the first place. I wouldn't want that kid on my club if he doesn't have any more guts than that. I hope you told the kids that were razzing you to come up to the wrestling room for a practice or two. If they actually did that I'm sure they would've sung a different tune. Give me 14 guys with heart and guts over 14 "athletes" any day. "Athletes" usually are defined by their accomplishments in team sports and can blame the other 10 or 8 guys when something goes bad. Plus, they've had their butts kissed since they were in 4th grade little league. Everyone has told them what a special "athlete" they are and doors get opened for them. The mat is a very lonely place. No excuses, no one to blame but themselves. Daddy can't grease the skids with the coaches on a wrestling (tho I've seen some try). Sometimes that freshman 95 pound 103 pounder is the best example of what is great about our sport. Making it more difficult for that kid to get on the mat isn't good for the sport, IMO.

Thank you for giving me permission, Mr. Spock. However, oh all knowing and enlightened one who only bases his decisions on fact and scientific analysis, you believe that the failure or success of H.S. wrestling depends on setting up a weight class system that only favors upperclassmen? How........illogical (I'm raising one vulcan eyebrow as I type this).

I guess I just need someone to explain why it's bad to have a weight class or two that are dominated by underclassmen. If it gets more kids involved in the sport, how is that bad? Everyone wants to have a team dominated by seniors or juniors but that's what makes coaching fun. Having a few challenges, like filling ALL the weight classes and motivating some of the younger guys to be competitve at the varsity level can be pretty satifying for the athlete and the coach. There's been a lot of talk on this thread about how stats and numbers support this or that. Frankly folks, we all know that sports aren't all stats. In fact, sports aren't really about stats at all. It's about competition and ALL the weights contribute to the sport that's highly entertaining. Reduce the forfeits but don't get rid of weight classes simply because they are dominated by underclassmen. Sorry Mr. Hungus (Spock), but those are my "feelings."

But, wildcat, isn't it true that you don't believe that going up to 106/107 isn't enough? It needs to be more in order to make sure freshmen have a very difficult time wrestling varsity, correct? C'mon, let it out. I know you can!

Wrestlingdadx2, ccbig, lpbrown90. Get ready to get sarcasmed and ridiculed to death for liking 103. The haters (and yes Mr Hungus, you guys are haters) for some reason can't stand the fact that underclassmen get a chance to compete. As I stated in an earlier post 9 wt classes separated by 10 pounds, starting at 120 and ending at 200 would be a dream for these guys. They hide behind forfeits as the main reason they want to see the wt increased. Underclassmen should, in their world, have no place to showcase their talents and abilities. I ask again, would Henry Cejudo have won olympic gold in '08 if the weights started at 120? Doubtful.

I think wildcat speaks for the 103 haters. They believe that wrestling weight classes should mainly consist of upper classmen (jrs & srs) so the weight classes should start at 120 and end at 200. I suppose 9 weight classes separated by 10 pounds would be what they are looking for. What does everyone think of that? How would development opportunities be effected? Many great wrestlers start at 103/112. Would Henry Cejudo have won the olympics in 08 if the weights started at 120? How would numbers be effected? We're always complaining about the number of kids coming out for the sport. Is wrestling's popularity strong enough (like football and basketball) to have most kids wrestle jv for two years? I'm sure there are other issues.

Now that 103 will be increased to 106 or 107 in 2010, will all the vitriol shown towards the lowest weight class stop? Accordingto the 103 haters it should because, supposedly, all they ever wanted was an increase in the weight. Well now they have it but me thinks their hatred will continue to burn because, ultimately, their distaste for the weight class is truly based on the fact that freshmen dominate the class and "it's not fair that freshmen get a varsity letter just because they're the only one's small enough to qualify for the weight." 106 or 107 will continue to be dominated by freshmen. Raising the weight isn't, IMO, going to change that. The other argument againt 103 is that it has too many forfiets. Will they decrease now that the class has been raised 3 or 4 pounds? Only time will tell but, IMO, it will remain the the highest forfeited class in all of the weights. Frankly, I love the lighter weight classes and an increase to 103 I don't believe is a bad thing but I don't think it's going to have the effect the 103 haters hope for. The only way they will be truly satisifed is if the first weight class started at 112 but then they'd be hacked off that mostly sophomores dominate that class. BTW, 103 pounders this is the year to set state and school records at 103 because those records will live forver once the weight change takes place next year!

It's "fewer" forfeits.

They're a solid team, and will be even better this year, but upsetting Bellmont? May be a long shot. Great coaching staff and some solid kids, I look forward to the matchups this year. NHC will be very competitive this year. Upsetting Bellmont won't be impossible but definitely an uphill fight.

I heard he does most of his wrestling on the roof. Is there any truth to that?

Best comment to this thread I've read so far!!!!!

How is this enforcable? They don't do a good job of enforcing the weight management program, how do they propose to enforce this? Silly if you ask me.

I've done scholarships for a private college, and they certainly do look at both grades AND difficulty of classes. That's what makes it different than a public school. If you take all easy classes and get A's and B's you'll most likely get in to a public college easier than private, they tend to look at total work ethic, ***NO NO NO***ion, and grades. I would agree with the statement about private schools. our son has been accepted to a few private schools already that have tougher requirements then most of the state schools based on his test scores, and dificulty of classes. However if you are looking at state schools, they (well, Ball State and IU) are just looking at class rank, and GPA. That seems to be exactly the case. I got better scholarships going to a private college (with a 12.215 GPA and ranked 3rd) than state schools and their answer was that it would be significantly better if I was 1 or 2. I took harder classes and did well, but got less money than our 1 or 2 at a state school, both of which struggled to get in to private schools but easily got in with large scholarships to state schools. I recommend my students to take the harder classes, they prepare you for college better, and go where you like. In the long run a good work ethic and preparation will serve them best in the long run (life). SAT scores, high GPA, class rigor, class rank, it all plays a part. You don't have to be ranked #1 or #2 in your class to get scholarships to state schools. We're finding that if your kid has a very high gpa coupled with a very high SAT and they're at least in the top 10% of their class (if it's a bigh school), this opens up scholarships to the state schools.

He's apparently a little like Michael Jordan back in the day. I always had to laugh when Jordan would drop 50 on a team and his hype meisters would say that he was nearly incapacitated with stomach flu earlier in the day. If that kid was sick you could have fooled me. How do you catch that illness he had? I think most wrestlers would like to catch the same bug!

Disturbing, sad and, frankly, boring.

I'm confused as well. Can Juniors weigh in on Friday night?

Maybe a touch of maturity is required from both sides. Both Peck and Caprino sound like children. Great example to your wrestlers, guys (sarcasm).

IMO, no kids should be called out by name. Sort of a "Bush League" thread, if you ask me.

I have only been around ethical coaches, thankfully, and they follow the weight program to the letter. Any coach who doesn't shouldn't be a coach. Any plan is better than none at all.

How are kids going to know how to compare weight cutting of today vs. 15 years ago? It would be stupid to think these kids could give any good insight on what happened when they were babies, and compare it to what they do today. Besides, the original premise of your thread was that kids should cut to whatever weight they want. Wrestlers dying because of drastic weight cutting, just over a decade ago, shows that shouldn't be allowed. Coach - I don't think Doug is saying that kids today would have good insight on weight loss 15 years ago. He's saying heavy weight cutting still takes place today and the fact that you are a coach means you really aren't a good source to speak to this subject. Kids aren't going to open up to you like they would to a fellow wrestler/teammate. Things ARE better today regarding weight loss and if you want to attribute that solely to the weight program you are welcome to that opinion. Just know things aren't perfect in paradise and kids still lose tremendous amounts of weight.

Here are some #'s I'd like for you to look at of Indiana state qualifiers at 103 for the past 11 years. I think the weight programs were first introduced in either '01 or '02. Take a look at how much the upper to lower classmen #'s changed since weight regulations were put into place. Are you going to say that it's just coincidence that they're less upper classmen state qualifiers for each year since '01? [table] '99 '00 '01 '02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08 '09 Upper Classmen 7 8 10 6 5 4 6 4 7 3 5 Lower Classmen 9 8 6 10 11 12 10 12 9 13 11 [/table] Something else to consider is that 103 has been around since the 1987-88 season. There have been 21 103 lb. state champions (in '95 there wasn't a 103 class). With 13 upper-classmen champs to 8 lower-classmen champs. Of those 8 lower-classmen, 5 have taken place since '05. So are lower-classmen all the sudden just that much better? I think not. This is strong evidence that upper-classmen are just unable to make the cut to 103 because of the weight regulations. On top of the fact that no one has died since the implementation of weight regulations. So something must be working with these programs, whether you want to admit it or not. So, fewer upperclassmen and more underclassmen in the 103 pound weight class is your primary proof of the weight program working, eh? This is a new argument for this board as most people say kids are getting bigger and that's why the 103 pound weight class needs to be raised, they usually don't credit fewer upprclassmen to the weight management program. Hmmmm......Interesting. Picking one weight class isn't broad enough to support your thesis. Talk to the kids. This is my point.

I bet you're wrong. Well I don't know where you're from but wrestlers from my area aren't trying to drastically cheat the system. Ask Y2, Karl, or other coaches who regularly come onto these boards if they think the weight regulations have worked. Are these regulations perfect? No, but they are much better than just letting kids run rampant with "crazy weight cutting." Also, how many kids have died since the implementation of weight programs? As far as I know, zero. Do a google search. I bet the last case you find of kids dying as a result of weight cutting was '97 or '98 (before weight regulations). So that's a sign that the system is working. I'm from an evil area of Indiana, Cheatersville! Haven't you heard of it? The kids from my area are no different than kids from any area. Your earlier statement about the majority of kids strictly abiding by the rules is actually, probably true. However, when you distill down wrestlers in the post season, the closer you get to state, the more successful the kids are, the more drastic the weight cutting becomes because most of the better wrestlers (171 and below) are "gnawing a leg off" to get to that "magic" weight. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's a fact. Also, don't try bringing coaches into this because they can't say anything regarding this topic other than what the state regulations espouse, and rightfully so. If they said anything other they would be opening themselves up to litigation and suspension. So coaches of course are going to support what you are saying. Maybe you're from Truthville, IN and all of your kids are sticking to the letter of the weight program but if you're having honest conversations with kids who currently wrestle, I think you'll find otherwise.

I'm sure there are some kids who do find loopholes in their weight programs and "cut crazy weight." But I believe that the number of kids cutting crazy weight today is probably far less than what was happening 10-15-20 years ago. I bet the majority of kids follow their weight programs to a t. I bet you're wrong.