TakeTheShot

All I’m guaranteeing is that these matchups aren’t going to play out like the rankings (team and individual) say they will. DocDan’s prediction may be a good look at the 3rd/4th matchup as easily as it could be the championship.

above my level of understanding? Give an strangely odd opinion, expect someone to disagree.

Baumann and Sollars both had knee braces but didn’t look like either were bothered by knees. Sollars lost to an absolute stud and Baumann wrestled less than 7 periods in the entire tourney (3 of which where in the finals against #2 in the state, double Fargo all-American, and #13 in the country, Michigan recruit—Khawaja), yet still had 10+ takedowns, numerous nearfall on all but 1 opponent, and 3 pins in 4 matches, and was never scored on. If that’s a bad day, SWINFAN must be really livin the high life. Plus those 2 both All-Americaned at Fargo with braces on.

No place a team would rather be than in the underdog role. #1 seeds are ripe for the picking, especially when they wear it so proudly before its been proven head to head. Will be a fun team state championship tourney.

Mater Dei sadly didn't attend this event for quite a stretch of time, including 2015-2017 (plus many others) so not sure this really strengthens your argument. Plus, 6 years ago you are forgetting about a really strong set of seniors at MD last year and another state champ (and a Lee that didn't compete 2 years ago). Not sure they would have beat MD at that time.

Honestly, Jesse Mendez is becoming the Chuck Norris of Indiana wrestling. Jesse just beat _______. Insert any name and I would believe it. He is at another level. Hope his injury ends up being something minor. I can’t wait to see how the rest of his summer goes.

I don’t disagree numbers of student athletes is decreasing in Indiana in many sports. I don’t believe that anyone has demonstrated any evidence that classing an individual sport will make any measurable change at the schools we are obviously talking about on this thread. If you truly want more high school kids to wrestle, go to the big schools and let more of them compete at the varsity level in state tourney. That’s were kids that want spots aren’t getting them. I don’t want this, but that’s were the numbers are. That is likely only going to hurt small school participants’ chances at individual titles, however. This thread isn’t really about getting more individuals to wrestle, it’s about making small schools, many of which don’t have enough kids either in attendance or with the skills needed to compete with a state placer (ie the measure of success used), and the kids that attend them somehow successful against those that do have the numbers and skills. Since that is deemed impossible for whatever reason (coaching resources, practice partners, competition opportunities), some feel we need to change how success is defined to get kids to fill spots on teams that they don’t currently want to fill for whatever reason—other sports, interests, jobs, etc.—convincing them that they won’t have to compete against those considered to be more skilled individuals. You are trying to offer them a shortcut for success, which doesn’t work. You really can’t compete at high school wrestling as an Individual if you not all-in. You don’t go from not wanting to join the team to place winner at wrestling, or swimming, soccer, or basketball either for that matter, no matter what class they are in. The kids that would “benefit” from classes are the kids that are already participating but finishing their seasons at semi state. Their reward is the title semi state qualifier (or regional placer), a reward that reflects their accomplishment. This is not something everyone can do, and it leaves room for improvement. If all the proposed changes basically give the title of state placer to that same level of accomplishment, it seems a little disingenuous. Kids need to fall in love with wrestling when younger than high school. All those things that don’t exist to the same extent in smaller programs and communities—feeder leagues, clubs, parents and coaches able to attract groups of young kids to the sport, and possibly time and money to find the right competition, etc—are the types of things required to be successful by the time you get to high school.

https://cbs4indy.com/instagram/data-shows-participation-in-some-hoosier-sports-is-declining/amp/ This is over 1 year old, but less kids are playing sports. Over 13 years, football down 7%, wresting down 14%, and basketball down 24%. 45% of kids used to participate in sports. Down to 38%. From another website...about 6000 less boys in sports over past 10 years. About 10% decline.

I have read every post here and I have concluded that despite classing the team state tourney and giving more awards to more teams, the total number of wrestling teams in the state have decreased. Using what we have learned from this, some would like to class the individual tourney and (at minimum of going to 2 classes) double the number of champions and placers, feeling pretty confident this would increase the number of wrestlers in the state. Despite the fact we haven’t seen this to be true. Any proposal to actually improve the skill level of any wrestler (feeder programs, clubs, wrestling outside of the high school program, etc) are not fair and generally speaking too difficult or impossible to do. Wrestlers only wrestle because they like ribbons and shiny things and standing on uneven pedestals. Maybe the fact that none of this makes sense is why the last 3 pages of this post are the same as the first 3 pages (and my guess is the same as the last 20 threads discussing this). And for the love of God can someone give Y2C a random number between 25 and 100. And stop calling small school wrestlers lazy.

If you really want numbers to increase let teams enter more than 1 kid at each weight in the state tournament series. However, you big schools would only be more dominating—getting 2 qualifiers out of sectionals and regionals. You would probably have an easier time getting a team of 40-50 kids up to 60-70 than a team of 10 to 14. Number of kids of wrestling in the state would go up but small schools with same problems. What do you really want...number of kids wrestling to increase or small schools to be able to say they have champions?

At least 2 are going to Chattanooga so your numbers are wrong. My guess is COVID has delayed some offers and commitments too. edit: you said finals...boarman could have been in almost any other weight class. My bad

Consolidate small teams when logistically possible. Won’t help your number of programs but may help participation and be a way to fill a wrestling room. I know that has been done in Illinois. As well as kids wrestling for schools other than their own when their school doesn’t have a wrestling team.

Thank you for the data. Illinois and New Jersey look to be successful in 2018-2019 especially. Indiana down. Have to consider Illinois and New Jersey lost residents while Indiana population growing. May be success in growing wrestling in IL and NJ or just the fact they are horribly ran states that lost residents, while IN population growing while wrestling making a slight dip.

It’s a heck of start. Kids that fall in love with the sport when young; Coaches that love putting in the time (and it takes a lot of time) at the both the lowest level and taking the more skilled teams to Virginia Beach and Tulsa when ready; Parents that enjoy being around each other for long days and long road trips and have the financial resources to take time off work and lose weekends that could be spent doing other things is a huge start. It’s the “despite our school size” thinking that will always hold you back cause that isn’t going to change. Everything I mentioned can happen no matter where you live. You conceded the detail you need—“a bunch of kids wrestling since gradeschool”. I don’t know what number “a bunch” has to be but 2 about the same size always pushing each other is a great start.

Never once said that. Don’t think anyone else has either. I don’t know any wrestlers that don’t work hard. More than once on this thread someone for class system acts like that is a claim someone has made. Really seems to make the discussion repetitious.

I am all for kids having opportunities to wrestle similar skill levels. Competitive matches are how everyone improves. Sounds like we need a small school, no academy, no private school, only multi sport athlete tourney. Call it the Bo Jackson Invitational. Winners can be Bo Knows champions. Just don’t call it a state championship. Sounds sarcastic but these are the reasons listed (true or otherwise). Again, there are levels to this sport. I am all for everyone competing at their level and striving to make the next one—all should. I think some forms of the extreme example I gave could help get similar kids together for a great tourney. They can be state-wide but don’t call them state champions.

Population and geography. A lot of people smashed into a smaller state.

no... this big.

I guess this an argument I have had with each of my kids at one time or another... When you are little I don’t mind changing the rules to any game (Candyland, basketball, etc) to were you can win almost every time. Someday you (not you specifically—kids growing up have to realize you can’t keep changing rules until you become the winner. You can say it makes it fair but really most people/kids are only changing the rules enough until they become the winner. Scientifically proven that those that take the most risk—put themselves in situation with long odds—over and over again, learn what it takes to be successful over time. You need to lose matches to ultimate win the tough ones. I recommend making sure you lose some when your young. That’s how you make great wrestlers great people too. Problem is the answer to this isn’t in your high schools now. It’s in your grade schools...find them. Your success won’t be next year but it will see it change in 5 years and ultimately be were you want in 10 years. No one want to hear that as a solution though. So I can’t be your politician. No one wants their situation to improve that far away. They want it right away. If it was easy, everyone would do it. Oops, another things wrestlers/people learn, winning ain’t easy.

Have I won your vote?

No offense but I believe your question is based on a false premise, so I can’t give you an answer. I don’t believe any high school programs are losing wrestlers due to our high schools crowning a single champ. They are losing wrestlers because the didn’t become wrestlers before high school. They either never participated in a sport because they don’t like sports (that’s fine), they liked another sport better (less fine, but I understand), or their parents are not knowledgeable about the sport or unable (time, money, local resources) to get them into the sport at the right time and right level (not good, cause we are losing some great athletes that don’t even know about wrestling). ***unrelated, but my argument why we don’t see even more freakish upper weights in the sport—they found something else first. Programs with feeder leagues and clubs are destined to win it every year. They have all skill levels and put them with the correct level of competition. That’s what you need. I guess you can do something similar at the high school level...put kids at the right level of competition. Don’t call it a state championship though. Class seems to be a silly way to determine the level of competition individually, by the way. There are lots of individuals that are awesome that are on less talented or teams missing weights. Some hammers at Floyd Central, Tell City, North Posey and similar sized schools up north. However, they didn’t start in high school and would have stopped improving if they didn’t keep seeking competition that would be considered above their “class.” Give me one champ! —random fan

Many sport participations are down. Football is getting killed, and it not due to lack of opportunity. Kids and parents don’t like the injury risks involved—whether it be concussions or COVID (now that they have taken more press than the sports themselves)—and the work it takes to be good at something. Let’s be honest...you have to be nuts to be an elite wrestler. If the hot practices and hard work in the room don’t scare you away the dieting and mental component of this sport definitely will. Compare that to what it takes to be part of a basketball team and I can tell you what most young kids looking to try something other than video games are going to pick. Wrestling, no doubt, creates the hardest working, mentally tough leaders in life—business leaders, church leaders, social leaders. Hell, after wrestling, that stuff is easy. I am arguing, it also attracts those types of kids. Those that have big goals in sports, school, and life. Honestly, if you are waiting until high school to instill what it takes to do well you are missing the boat. This stuff happens when they are in early grade school and more and more in preschool. I have seen more mental toughness in some 6-8th graders than I have seen with 21 y/os I hire. That’s why I hire as many wrestlers I can. They will outwork everyone else and do what it takes to succeed without needing their hand held. I don’t have try and teach that to an adult that was given everything. They were learning what it takes to be successful in kindergarten. Indiana has a good thing going and our state’s representation at the next level is growing. I would argue because of the way the ihsaa does things, not despite it. Honestly, probably has a even more to do with what our clubs and feeder programs are doing. That’s were you need levels and guess what...there are levels. Beyond the scope of this post and if you have tried to recruit participation at the ages you need to you would know. Anything from 2 kids rolling around with huge smiles and clueless to two 6 year old pitbulls running moves most teams can’t teach their high schoolers because it’s too advanced. Both are awesome and both of these types of matches create state champs. I’ve seen it. However if your room still has the kids rolling around with big smiles and no clue, they really don’t need to be called champions. But they can still be hard working, mentally tough wrestlers getting better prepared for life.

I would agree. Sometimes people on here can get a offended so I promise none of this is aimed at anyone or any program... To added classes, extra teams, extra wrestlers to the post-season ultimately waters down what it means to be a champion. Obviously, I am a fan of determining who is THE champion. Compared this to college basketball or college football. Most sports fans can tell you who the past few NCAA basketball champions were. Now who has won the past few NIT championships? Collegeinsider.com tourney? Other than the teams that won, who cares? College football bowl games. So many games that know one cares about but it makes the season longer for more and more teams. To colleges they bring money from television rights, etc. In high school, extra games/tourneys add to the cost of a season. I forget the exact numbers but years ago about 25% of college basketball teams made the post-season. Now I think it’s closer to 40%. Still only 1 that counts. I’m sure football has similar trends and still only 1 that matters. College girls teams don’t have as many opportunities to stretch their. seasons. Guessing if there was money to be made they would, but there isn’t. Sooooo, fewer post season opportunities. I guess what I am saying is embrace the awesome event you just saw because there is a chance that if you try give everyone the title of champion, eventually it won’t mean as much. I definitely don’t want to see this event turn into 3 little events held in high school gyms with 3 individuals claiming to be the best and no clear winners. There is no way that improves what we have here in Indiana.