RHendricks9

1 hour ago, Coach Brobst said:

4 are in the same (Carmel, HSE, Fishers, Westfield)

and you’re correct, they don’t care about it and I’ve said it before, if we won’t class, we HAVe to balance the sectionals more evenly

 

Kids from Clinton Central, Frankfort, and Clinton Prarie HAVE to be better than at least one kid from one of those monster schools just to make regionals.

 

Meanwhile, a kid who goes to Tri HS can make it to Regionals some years just by weighing in.

 

Ask the small school coaches what a difference it makes when 2-3 extra kids make regionals or semi-state and how that motivates all the other kids.

 

Anyways, My point to your original post is you were trying to fix just one problem and created at least 5 more by just trying to get Brownsburg away from CG. That sectional is just one example.

 

That makes sense. Honest question, would you sacrifice shorter drives to separate the big schools? Because I was trying to do the opposite by creating short drives without caring about school size. 

1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

So if the North Vermillion coach improves the culture by,  open the wrestling room more to get more practice, takes a sales course to sell his kids to buy in, and improves his coaching skills by taking courses and watching video,  he'll be better then Brownsburg?

Better than Brownsburg is a really tall task. 320+ teams couldn’t do it so I wouldn’t say that. I think those sales classes could position themselves in a place to make a difference at state though. 

41 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

I can't begin to respond to the whole thing, but here's the basics:

1) The IHSAA will NOT change Sectionals/Regionals/Semi-states just because one is loaded with talent.

2) I drew one up a couple years ago keeping same venues as hosts, but shuffling based on school sizes alone and balancing that out (since presently FW has only 2 4A schools), but mine, like most others, fell flat because ultimately any time one person does this, we look at it from a skewed lens of whatever benefits the teams/area we root for. 

 

Examining the rezoning above, it is clear you definitely mean that school size doesn't matter at all when designing these Sectionals. Sectionals 3, 4, and 5 each have just one larger school (3 has Harrison, 4 has 3A McCutcheon, 5 has Lafayette Jeff) but Sectional 6 gets Noblesville, HSE, Fishers, Carmel, Zionsville, AND Westfield. But don't worry Clinton Central and Sheridan kids still have just as good a chance because school size doesn't matter! 

 

We'll see what changes will come about, but my guess is 10-15 schools max will change sectionals, maybe half that change Regionals or Semi-State. In any case, it will take a committee of people to ensure there's no bias, or at least limit it.

it would definitely take someone smarter than me to effectively restructure it. I just wanted to throw out what I thought of. And five of those six giant schools that you named are already in the same sectional, because it makes sense for that region. 

38 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

So North Vermillion just doesn't work as hard, right?

I’m sure those kids work extremely hard. And I think they should continue to do so because I think anything is possible on the individual level. I think even the dying programs could be revived if they established a good culture and used that to build a strong youth program

6 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Again that doesn't answer the question, you said small schools like Adams Central are better than some big schools. Why isn't North Vermillion better than Brownsburg?

How many state qualifiers did these 50+ schools with less than 360 students have?

Eminence
Randolph Southern
Attica
New Washington
Rock Creek Academy
Providence Cristo Rey
Frontier
West Central
North Vermillion
Borden
Tri-County
Indianapolis Lutheran
South Newton
Faith Christian
Tri-Central
Caston
Tri
Southwood
Union City
Clinton Central
Southern Wells
Culver Community
Victory College Prep
Triton
Washington
West Washington
North White
Cambridge City Lincoln
Fountain Central
Northfield
Daleville
Tecumseh
Wes-Del
North Miami
Covington
Lafayette Central Catholic
Cloverdale
Pioneer
North Judson
Providence
Knightstown
Sheridan
Hagerstown
Carroll (Flora)
South Adams
Madison-Grant
Clinton Prairie
Taylor
Hebron
Wapahani
South Putnam
North Newton
 

Now lets compare then to the 5 biggest schools
Fishers
North Central
Warren Central
Ben Davis
Carmel

 

The small schools had 700 opportunities to get state qualifiers while the bigger group had 70. Surely having 10x the amount of entries at sectional would give them an advantage.
 

North Vermillion isn’t better than Brownsburg for the same reason all but Crown Point aren’t better than Brownsburg. Coaching, Culture, access to wrestling clubs and School buy-in 

2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

So you're saying an ELITE athlete can be good at multiple sports? Wow, this is a groundbreaking conversation we are having.

So you’re saying only big schools can have elite athletes? I don’t think that’s necessarily accurate 

Just now, RHendricks9 said:

The best linebacker (John Purdy) and best running back (Luke Hansen) were both state placers. You don’t have to be a single sport athlete to be successful

Plus a lineman going to Iowa which is a HUGE accomplishment and indicates a big commitment to football to get to that level

2 minutes ago, Thor said:

Which is near impossible at South Adams. Our cross country team is mostly wrestlers, half our starters in football are wrestlers, and then a lot of those same guys make up a solid track program. Even in our middle school and youth, our best wrestlers are the best football players and runners through like 5th grade. These kids aren't just going to drop everything and wrestle, which would also decimate our other sports. 

The best linebacker (John Purdy) and best running back (Luke Hansen) were both state placers. You don’t have to be a single sport athlete to be successful

5 minutes ago, Silence Dogood said:

 

For a start, they would need to wrestle all year round like the kids that are winning state at the schools you mentioned.

 

I don’t know the exact number but I know for a fact at least 3 state champions are multi-sport athletes so they would not be wrestling all year round

26 minutes ago, ILUV2PIN said:

Altruistic of you to think that way.... but I just don't think that is the reality of wrestling in Indiana. Let's take it back to my time in high school (2007-2011). The tops dogs were still the big schools: Mishawaka, Crown Point, Perry Meridian, Warren Central, Lawrence North, etc.. A few small (public, sorry EMD) schools had some solid success (Bellmont, Yorktown) but nothing on the level of those big dogs. Just my 2 cents.

It is true that powerhouses change which is why I believe it would be best to build the state tournament in a common sensical manner instead of sending teams unnecessary distances as I referenced earlier. 

33 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Now do North Vermillion vs. Brownsburg

North Vermillion head coach: Robby Davis, 2x regional qualifier. Brownsburg head coach: Darrick Snyder, state placer and D3 national qualifier. Coaches are not always limited by their own success but their track record especially when one coach has 18 years more head coaching experience. There also is not many RTCs or other wrestling training facilities nearby to Vermillion County but I believed there will be as Indiana and even Illinois wrestling continue to grow. 

16 minutes ago, Thor said:

Perfect way to put it, and it hit me hard this year. I really want South Adams to have a state champ at some point in time, but I have no clue how a kid from our school is going to compete with kids from Brownsburg, Center Grove, and Crown Point, or any other schools like them. 

Out of the 5 biggest schools in in Indiana, Adams Central had more state qualifiers than Ben Davis,  North Central, and Fishers. Culture and wrestlers matter more than school size

9 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Thank you.

So thus if you are generating stats based on school size is that really fair? Even though Carmel has 5000 students only 14 get to wrestle at sectional, yet you are including the other 4984+ students your stats. Your stats seem skewed to the point that bigger schools get more entries, but in reality they get the same number of entries as the smaller schools.

 

 

I did hand-pick the stats, but I also am arguing that school size does not matter and that it is dependent on the wrestlers that go out there. Wrestling provides equal opportunity to all who step on the line. 

8 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

So are you going to answer my questions or not?

1. How many entries does each team get at sectional?
2. Is that based on school size?

Each team gets one entry per weight class, so 14. It is not impacted by school size whatsoever. 

6 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I'll try this again...

 

How many entries does each team get at sectional? Is that based on school size?

I don’t think there’s any reason to change the one wrestler per team per weight class. I think the season and offseason tournaments are to decide who is the best from a certain school that year. I would like to see tournaments move towards having more opens like colleges do just so everyone is getting matches, but I think the postseason should remain the way it is. 

10 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Secondly, your state series realignment is great, however the IHSAA is very much tied down to who is willing and WANTS to host a state series event. The semi-states are not going to change location any time soon, so you need to draw the lines based on them and then move inward.

I suspected this was the largest issue in making wholesale changes. There are some things (Brownsburg taking the longest drive possible to a semistate, New Albany and Floyd Central driving over an hour and a half for regionals instead of 20 minutes) that just defy logic. 

3 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

How many entries does each team get at sectional? Is that based on school size?

I don’t think there’s any need to change the current system with 4 per sectional, I just feel like it could be useful for the state to restructure the semistates. 

I would like to preface this by saying that I wrestled for a 2A (I use football classes because they make the most sense to me) school in high school. I always had a decent record going into the state tournament because the local competition was so bad. Despite my record I never made it to semi-state. And to be honest I didn’t deserve to, I wasn’t good. 

With this in mind I have been thinking about how many have called for wrestling to become a classed sport in the IHSAA despite every other individual sports (track, swimming, tennis) in Indiana not being being classed. I have compiled statistics from the state finals that I believe indicate that there is not a class problem. The first of these is that Brownsburg, Crown Point, and Center Grove brought 32 state qualifiers themselves that are going to produce almost as many state qualifiers as any other class before adding the rest of the 6A competitors. The statistics show that the percentage of students in each class is nearly the same as the percentage of state qualifiers they had in Gainbridge. 

6A- 30% of students, 33% of State qualifiers

5A- 19% of students, 14% of State qualifiers

4A- 23% of students, 23% of State qualifiers

3A- 13% of students, 14% of State qualifiers

2A- 9% of students, 10% of State qualifiers

1A- 6% of students, 6% of State qualifiers

But disparities do start to show when you look at the depth of the runs of each wrestler based on the size of school. The stats for placers, finalists, and champions are as follows: 

6A- 39% of State placers

5A- 14% of State placers

4A- 29% of State placers

3A- 11% of State placers

2A-, 5% of State placers

1A- 2% of State placers

6A- 47% of Finalists

5A- 22% of Finalists

4A- 18% of Finalists

3A- 8% of Finalists

2A-, 4% of Finalists

1A- 0% of Finalists

6A- 57% of Champions 

5A- 14% of Champions

4A- 29% of Champions

It is clear that bigger schools have more success deeper in the tournament. But I don’t think this is something that warrants a monumental shift to classed wrestling across the state. There are a multitude of factors that cause “big school” wrestlers to be more talented than their “small school” counterparts. First is more motivation for specialization. Although it is not unheard of for top wrestlers to also be talented wrestlers, there are also many very talented wrestlers who do not apply their athleticism to other sports which gives them more opportunity to develop their skill. Second bigger schools have more students which means more wrestlers which means more competition. And competition breeds success. This causes the wrestler to wrestle better as well as better training partners. Third areas with big schools are more likely to have wrestling clubs in the area that allow them to get better outside of the season. I believe this is the biggest difference maker. These factors are not necessarily reversible and I don’t believe that’s a bad thing. Big schools have a higher probability of being the teams that are hoisting trophies at the end of the year. The 1A/2A state tournament put on by Southmont is the perfect solution for this. I would love to see this be an in season tournament so the wrestlers can have better in season competition and so that the wrestling can feel like it means more. But this is a phenomenal solution to the “unfair advantage” big schools have. I believe there is a problem that is handicapping some teams in the tournament: 

The sectional, regional, and semi-state boundaries are absolutely atrocious. The distribution of placers among the semi-states was fairly even across the board. But as the matches meant more there were two clear semi-states that were better than the others. With Evansville even sweeping the final 4 in two different weight classes

Placers; Top 4; Finalists; Champions

Evansville: 35 (31%); 27 (48%); 17 (61%); 6 (43%) 

East Chicago: 28 (26%); 15 (27%); 8 (29%); 6 (43%) 

Fort Wayne: 25 (22%); 6 (11%); 1 (3%); 0

New Castle: 24 (21%); 8 (14%); 2 (7%); 2 (14%) 

On top of this Brownsburg goes to the semi-state that is farthest from them by driving time (according to Apple Maps). New Albany and Floyd Central are 20 minutes from Jeffersonville yet they drive 2 hours and an hour and a half respectively to get to their regional at Bloomington South. 

On top of that there is one sectional with 7 teams in it while there is another with 13 teams. That is almost a whole extra round guaranteed for the wrestlers at Jeffersonville sectional. I understand the map-drawing is not easy so I took the time to redraw the entire state series all the way down to the sectional. With every sectional having between 9-12 teams because the average is that there should be a little over 9 teams per sectional. I believe that implementing maps that make more sense and divide state powerhouses will make Indiana wrestling much better than classing it ever could. If assigned seats at state take that much energy out of the crowd, I would hate to see what happened if they only cared about 1/3 of the matches. 

The sectionals I divided are as follows: 

North (Notre Dame?)

1. (9) Whiting, Hammond Bishop Noll, East Chicago Central, Hammond Central, Hammond Morton, River Forest, Lake Station Edison, Hobart, Gary West side 

2. (9) Munster, Highland, Griffith, Calumet, Andrean, Merrillville, Lake Central, Illiana Christian, Portage

3. (10) Crown Point, Hanover Central, Lowell, Wheeler, Boone Grove, Hebron, Kankakee Valley, West Central, North Judson- San Pierre, Winimac Community

4. (10) Laporte, Valparaiso, Chesterton, Michigan City, New Prarie, Marquette Catholic, Glenn, South Bend Washington, Knox, Laville

5. (10) Culver Academy, Plymouth, Triton, Wawasee, Northwood, Concord, Bremen, Fairfield, Goshen, Culver Community

6. (10) Rochester, Wabash, Warsaw, Columbia City, Manchester, Whitko, North Miami, Caston, Tippecanoe Valley, Northfield

7. (9) South Bend Clay, South Bend Riley, South Bend Adams, South Bend Saint Joseph, Mishawaka Marion, Mishawaka, Penn, Elkhart, Jimtown

8. (9) Northridge, Westview, Lakeland, West Noble, Central Noble, Prairie Heights, Fremont, Angola, East Noble

East (New Castle)

1. (9) Eastside, Dekalb, Garrett, Churubusco, Carroll (Fort Wayne), Leo, Fort Wayne Northrop, Fort Wayne Bishop Dwenger, Woodlan 

2. (9) Fort Wayne Concordia Lutheran, Fort Wayne Snider, Homestead, Fort Wayne Northside, New Haven, Fort Wayne South side, Fort Wayne Bishop Leurs, Fort Wayne Wayne, Heritage

3. (11) Norwell, Jay County, Southern Wells, Southwood, Huntington North, Belmont, Bluffton, Adams Central, South Adams, Blackford, Eastbrook

4. (12) Peru, Lewis Cass, Maconaquah, Oak Hill, Southwood, Mississinewa, Jay County, Madison-Grant, Marion, Northwestern, Eastern (Greentown), Taylor

5. (11) Kokomo, Western, Tri-Central, Tipton, Hamilton Heights, Anderson, Alexandria Monroe, Elwood, Frankton, Lapel

6. (11) Wes-Del, Yorktown, Monroe Central, Daleville, Union City, Wapahani, Randolph Southern, Muncie Central, Delta, Cowan, Winchester Community

7. (11) Warren Central, Lawrence North, Lawrence Central, Eastern Hancock, New Palestine, Knightstown, Pendleton Heights, Shenandoah, Victory College Prep, Mount Vernon (Fortville), Greenfield-central

8. (11) Connersville, New Castle, Tri, Hagerstown, Cambridge City, Centerville, Richmond, Union County, Northeastern, Rushville, Blue River Valley

West (?)

1. (9) Terre Haute North, Northview, Terre Haute South, Greencastle, Sullivan, Cascade, South Putnam, West Vigo, Cloverdale

2. (10) South Vermillion, Parke Heritage, North Putnam, Plainfield, Decatur Central, Avon, Providence Cristo Rey, Ben Davis, Mooresville, Speedway

3. (10) Benton Central, South Newton, North Newton, Tri-County, West Lafayette, Harrison, Frontier, Twin Lakes, North White, Rensaleer Central

4. (9) North Montgomery, Southmont, Fountain Central, Crawfordsville, North Vermillion, Mccutcheon, Covington, Seeger, Attica

5. (9) LCC, Frankfort, Lafayette Jefferson, Rossville, Faith Christian, Delphi, Pioneer, Logansport, Carroll (Flora)

6. (9) Sheridan, Westfield, Guerin Catholic, Carmel, Clinton Central, Noblesville, Hamilton Southeastern, Zionsville, Fishers

7. (11) Bishop Chatard, Scecina, Cardinal Ritter, Crispus Attucks, Arsenal Tech, Christel House Academy, George Washington, School for the Deaf, Cathedral, Park Tudor, Purdue Polytechnic 

8. (10) Brownsburg, Clinton Prairie, North Central, Brebeuf Jesuit, Pike, School for the Blind, Western Boone, Tri-West, Danville, Lebanon

South (Ford Center) 

1. (9) Mount Vernon (Posey), North Posey, Evansville Reitz, Mater Dei, Evansville Central, Evansville Memorial, Evansville Bosse, Evansville Harrison, Evansville North

2. (9) Castle, Boonville, Tecumseh, South Spencer, Wood Memorial, Gibson Southern, Heritage Hills, Tell City, Forest Park

3. (10) Vincennes Lincoln, North Knox, Washington, Pike Central, Jasper, Southridge, Paoli, Mitchell, Bedford North Lawrence, Princeton

4. (9) Brown County, Edgewood, Owen Valley, Center Grove, Indian Creek, Martinsville, Bloomington North, Bloomington South, Eminence

5. (10) Crawford County, North Harrison, Corydon Central, Floyd Central, New Albany, Providence, Jeffersonville, Silver Creek, Borden, Rock Creek Academy

6. (10) West Washington, Salem, Eastern (Pekin), Scottsburg, New Washington, Southwestern, Madison Consolidated, Charlestown, Switzerland County, Seymour

7. (11) Batesville, East Central, Columbus East, Franklin County, South Dearborn, Lawrenceburg, Milan, Columbus North, Jennings County, Oldenburg Academy, Greensburg

8. (11) Shelbyville, Triton Central, Greenwood, Perry Meridian, Beech Grove, Franklin Central, Lutheran, Roncalli, Southport, Whiteland, Franklin Community

I would like to reiterate that Indiana wrestling has a structure problem and not a single class problem.

How does scoring work?

Champions

106- Brayden Curtis

113- Alec Viduya

120- Cayden Rooks

126- Graham Rooks

132- Jeremiah Reitz

138- Zach Melloh

145- Brayton Lee

152- Joe Lee

160- Brad Laughlin

170- Tanner Webster

182- Lucas Davison

195- Tristen Tonte

220- Mason Parris

285- Isaiah McWilliams