WaltHarris

Personally, I'd love to see a kid go to any program they wanted to in Indiana. Realistically, it would be impossible to manage an educational system like that. And education is supposed to a least have some faint part in this, correct? (sarcasm) Image if a high school had 500 students in 2010 year. Then in 2011 Dan Gable decides to coach the wrestling team and Lou Holtz decides to coach the football team and the school's enrollment swells to 1,100. Then both coaches leave in 2012 and enrollment drops to 300. There is no way administratively to budget for that type of rapid increase/decrease swing in enrollments. Imagine the amount of teachers, secretaries and staff you would have to hire/fire with each of those enrollment swings. Not to mention if a school would even have the facility space.

My goodness, this topic has been posted to death over the last 15 years on this and previous boards!!! I will simply say that despite a variety of submissions on this topic, the general consensus over the years has been that Damon Hummel of Rochester is the most common answer posted.

This discussion reminded me of something. Back in the 1990s we used to separate wrestlers into two pools at FS/GR State (if there was a really large group). Then that went away and we had everyone tossed into one pool/bracket. However, currently at nationals and I think regionals, they separate weights with 6+ kids into two pools. I guess they divide returning All-Americans into the different pools, but I that is just a guess. Honestly, I'm fine with everyone being in one pool. That is, if we can separate the best kids and make sure kids don't wrestle the champ and runner up back-to-back. But does anyone know why we used to have two pools at State, but now only have one pool at State, but then have two pools at nationals?

I take off my hat to all the folks who worked at state like I did. The pairings folks, table workers and refs. There were more refs at state this year then any year I had ever seen. That made things much better for people like me working tables and faster for the kids. Along the lines of pairings, has the ISWA leadership ever discussed going to matside pairings at FS/GR State? I guess if we had straight line bracketing, that would be possible. But not with vertical bracketing.

I don't think we could seed state... BUT we could separate the best wrestlers at FS/GR state in the bracket. The ISWA must have the returning All-Americans, state champs and runner ups in a database. All we need to do is flag them in that database so that they are several lines apart on the wall chart. Our club had a similar experience to H1N1. We had two kids in FS who drew the state champ and runner up from last year in the first and second round. One kid didn't place and the other placed 8th, while a bunch of wrestlers they defeated placed quite high. To add insult to injury, one of these kids (who was a HS semi-state qualifier) drew the same state champ and runner up in the first and second round AGAIN in Greco. You can't devise a perfect system... just not possible... BUT we could make it better.

I would not really care. People have places to go and things to do. We had one kid from our club who left have his 3/4th match b/c his mom just had a baby Sunday morning. Don't get me wrong, the podium is a GREAT addition to the State Tournament for the ISWA. However, if a kid or his family have drive 3 hours back to Evansville on a Sunday night, let 'em do it as soon as possible. Not everyone lives in or around Indy.

Amen! I hope every coach in Indiana reads this. Great points.

I don't have a dog in this fight at all. The process sounds quite fair. Just a simple question of curiosity for me: What problem are we trying to solve with this new qualifying procedure?

It's overtime in this freestyle match, which means first score wins and ends the period. I would have scored it Blue 2. I see no scorable action for red.

Mishawaka school superintendent placed on leave Mishawaka, IN Superintendent Steven Mills has admitted he?s been secretly married to Joanne Shaw, who runs the reading recovery and literacy program for Mishawaka Schools. Mishawaka School Superintendent Steven Mills Wednesday was relieved of his duties, at least on a temporary basis. Mills was placed on paid administrative leave while the school board looks into his marital misrepresentations. Mills recently disclosed to the board that he secretly married the district?s Director of Literacy, Joann Shaw, five years ago. The school board has scheduled a meeting this Friday at 6 p.m. The meeting will be closed to the public, although Mr. Mills will attend, according to Mishawaka School Board President Larry Stillson. Stillson Wednesday described Mill?s problem as a legal one, saying ?There were waivers and disclosure forms that had to be signed, that weren?t.? Stillson also told NewsCenter 16 that, ?As hard has it may be to believe, it?s an absolute truth, no board member, and to my knowledge, no one who work with Steve day to day, knew that this marriage existed.? Both the board and the community continue to struggle to cope with the news. ?Oh I think he should go, definitely, there?s been five years of just lies, and people hiding things up that shouldn?t be hidden and it?s embarrassing,? said Susan Moore, the parent of two students in the Mishawaka Schools. Moore worked on a petition drive in 2007 to try and replace Mishawaka?s appointed school board, with an elected board. The superintendent?s situation reminds her of the reason she got involved in the first place. ?Yes, a lot of nepotism,? Moore said. For teachers, the revelation couldn?t have come at a worse time. ?As you know, 30 teachers were laid off and their futures are uncertain, their careers are derailed, and then to have this happen at the administrative level is a distraction that none of us needed,? said Bruce Shannon, President of the Mishawaka Education Association. It?s not known how long the superintendent?s leave of absence will last. The board did see fit to appoint an interim superintendent. That?s Dan Towner, the current Director of Curriculum. N.B- The wife kept getting more funding for her program and herself, and had a new wing built for her program, all while 30 other teachers were let go.

You can read Article 55 in greater content at: http://uswoawrestlingofficials.com/USWOA_PDFs/RULE%20BOOK%202010.pdf This is the USAW Rule Book for 2010.

Y2CJ41, I think you are correct about point 1 & 2. However, point 3 I feel differently about. First off, most of the slams and other illegal and potentially dangerous holds just are not officiated accurately in FS/GR. (See article 55 below.) We can certainly get better as a wrestling community about this. Second, I think the points rjs makes about modifying folkstyle (removing locked hands, etc.) gets us closer FS/GR without killing folkstyle or even going to the point of high amplitute throws. Article 55 - Consequences affecting the bout The illegal hold of the attacked wrestler shall be stopped by the referee without interrupting the hold if possible. If there is no danger, the referee allows the development of the hold and waits for the result. He then stops the match, gives the points and a caution to the wrestler at fault. If the hold begins properly and then becomes illegal, the hold should be evaluated up until the beginning of the infraction, then the match should be stopped and wrestling should be made to continue in a standing position with the attacking wrestler receiving an amicable caution. If the wrestler attacks again with an illegal hold, the referee will stop the match, give a caution (0) to the wrestler at fault, one point to his opponent. In all cases, in the event of any willful butting with the head or any other brutality, the wrestler at fault may be eliminated immediately from the bout by a unanimous decision of the officiating team, or disqualified

By soucie "rjs" An extemely concise and erudite viewpoint on the sport of amateur wrestling....i hope you are someone that can make a difference....after over 2 decades of functioning as a coach/mentor within the sport i am now merely a spectator - unfortunately! Years ago i was one of the "founding fathers of Adirondack Three Style Wrestling Club" hoping to expose ALL our amateurs to the different styles of wrestling, even fostering the first youth tournaments for Freestyle and Greco. my hope is to produce a dialog to examine just what you have just written about......THANX!! so sez soucie

By BG There was a great response to this on the old boards, now lost forever. But the jist of the conversation was this: There are many styles (folkstyles) of wrestling in Russia. They don't wrestle freestyle from the young ages, they do the same as we do in America. The rules may be different from ours and are probably different from region to region and even different from country to country for all the Asian countries but they are definitely folk styles of wrestling. It doesn't seem to affect their ability to be contenders on the world stage. In fact, it probably enhances their abilities as it does for us to learn many different styles of wrestling that incorporate different moves and focus on different strategies. Makes for a well-rounded wrestler. Don't assume that the US is the only country that practices "folkstyle" wrestling.

By rjs I am opposed to the idea for a number of reasons: 1. We managed to build world beating freestyle wrestlers...even world-level competitive freestyle teams...via the system we are in for literally decades until approximately the late 90's. Folkstyle, as the basis for learning basic wrestling skills, has worked well for us in the past. Before we throw that model for success out with the bathwater, we should really ask ourselves why it hasn't worked for us over the last decade. (Hint: look at who was at the helm of freestyle for most of that period). 2. Trying to "fix" American wrestling by making a radical change places our sport at risk. Our collegiate-level programs are already in a precarious position. Making a major style change would likely prove to be the excuse that many schools were looking for to drop their program. I have (in my opinion) a better idea... I believe that a study group made up of our finest American coaches (from middle school level through international level) and athletes (seniors) should address the issue of American wrestling from a more reasoned and logical standpoint. Among their goals should be a planned, developmental approach to American wrestling as a whole that takes folkstyle as the basis and begins making minor rules and/or scoring modifications at each of the natural breaks (middle school, high school, college) that will better mold our wrestlers for the future. For instance, middle school folkstyle would be essentially unchanged, with the possible exception of doing away with the "locked-hands" rule. At the high school level, we could begin introducing strategic elements of the international styles...such as awarding a point for a push-out (to get wrestlers away from the edge-wrestling mindset), and possibly an enhanced "near fall" scoring progression (1 point for any exposure, 2 for two seconds, 3 for 5 seconds). Then, at the collegiate level, add a few more elements...such as points for throws to danger, and possibly a de-emphasizing of "riding time". Such an approach, if time-phased correctly, would make much more sense than a hard-departure from one style to another...and would also allow the experts to design a progression that would feed both freestyle and Greco more effectively at the senior levels.

By riot After last weekend's NCAA tournament it's easy to see that wrestling is an extremely exciting sport. However, I agree that FS/GR have some rules that can make it more exciting but those styles also have their issues. The new rules generally don't provide for more action. However, push-outs, fleeing, throws, and clinches can be exciting (especially the old clinch!). However, the excuse that some use for not promoting and marketing the sport.... that wrestling is not exciting... is just that- an excuse.

This was a topic on the USAW Board. I am copying & pasting the discussion here. Food for thought... LOSE "FOLKSTYLE" EMBRACE "FREESTYLE" The logistics for embracing 'freestyle' for ALL venues (youth, h.s., & collegiate) are undeniable when "viewing" the BIG picture. It is pitiful to witness the constant lack of stalling calls outside of 'freestyle' competition; and, what is more, it is horrific knowing that CHAMPIONS are rewarded for riding time!!! "How did you win, Champ?"....answer......."I held onto my opponent for one minute more than he held onto me!!!" Also, an athelete's most cherished goal has to be participating in the Olympics. Just watch crowd reactions during a Freestyle competition versus a Folkstyle competition. Soooo....lemme see if any others have the same thoughts........do the POLL - Yes or No so sez souci

MattM, you have some good thoughts. Personally, I would love to see FS/GR go much longer. However, I recall two issues from a previous discussion on this topic. First, a number of Indiana high schools have graduations the 3rd or 4th weekend in May. A number of Indiana colleges have graduation the 2nd or 3rd weekend in May. Second, if memory serves, the Central Regional is consistently on the 3rd or 4th weekend in May. There were just too many conflicts going later than the 1st weekend in May. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I am glad you stated that FS tournaments are qualifiers to encourage FS/GR events. That is a detail I was unaware of and am happy to read. That sounds like solid logic from the ISWA. I would like to follow up with another question. Respectfully, why can?t the ISWA deny a sanction? For years we had to go through the ISWA for coaches and wrestler cards, even when USAW had them on their web site (although this is no longer the case). For years, the ISWA was very tough on clubs and coaches who collaborated with USAW without ISWA?s knowledge. (I fully realize why that is btw.) ISWA has clearly put its foot down before in a number of areas. Why not the FS/GR calendar? Is it in the By-Laws?

I read you 5 by 5, Infolady. I don?t really like it, but I can understand it. If anyone has any creative solutions on this topic, I would l enjoy hearing them.

Infolady, this is very good info and I appreciate you sharing it. I was quite ignorant of many of these factors. You have done a good job in educating me about price structure of these tournaments. I think it is excellent that members of our community get to read your response and learn about such issues.

As a wrestling community, let?s jointly think in terms of what is possible, rather than impossible. I would suggest it?s quite possible for the first whistle to blow by 9 a.m Here is how I witnessed it done at a tournament this year. Pre-registration was done online with the freeware Google Apps. A spreadsheet of the wrestlers was placed at the entrance. Wrestlers had to check-in by 8 a.m. A volunteer validated weights/divisions with each kid as they entered. Another volunteer collected the entrance fee. A third & fourth volunteer served as runners; they watch for any weight/division alterations as wrestlers check-in, then ran back to pairings with the adjusted information. The tournament began on time at 9 a.m. There were still some bouts sheets printing for the adjusted weights, however those classes were moved further back in the order so that weights ready-to-go could start on time. Insofar as participants 1st match within one hour of their age group scheduled start time, that is also possible. A tournament just needs to stagger the start times. With pre-registration online, we would have a much better idea of numbers and timing. The ISWA already does this at FS State for various age groups. Other wrestling organizations stagger times too, and it functions well.

If we look at the issue in a collaborative fashion and not rule things out, there still are 2 options. Option A: Clubs use services like Google Apps for registration and waiver. Google Apps does not charge anything. Then wrestlers pay onsite as they enter the door. I attended two tournaments this year that used Google Apps for online registration/waiver. Both tournaments were executed quite well. Option B: Have the ISWA contract with a single vendor to provide online registration, waiver and payment. I believe the state of Utah?s wrestling organization does this, as does several organizations like USA Swimming. There?s plenty of companies out there like Credentials, Inc. that provide secure registration services at a nominal fee. I will say that option A sounds much better than option B. With option A, Infolady?s valid point about credit card payments can still be encompassed with the solution.

As a wrestling community, we need to combat the ignorance of some parents and coaches regarding FS/GR. Block brackets are easy to understand. But vertical pairing has its merits. For example, a person can lose one match in a vertical pairing system, but still come in 1st or 2nd place. Whereas with block brackets, if you lose one match the best you can do is 3rd place. I totally agree with Y2CJ41?s statement about efficiency today versus toughness 10 years ago. Perhaps I am off base, but I believe we can have our cake and eat it too. If we improve the efficiency of how we run FS/GR tournaments, then we can increase the number of tough matches. Right now there is so much wasted time with empty mats and people waiting for bout sheets. That is just a motivation killer. If we look at the resume of most collegiate wrestlers, they have a deep FS/GR background. Sadly, many ignorant people do not see that. We need to do a better job as coaches, officials and an organization educating other parents and coaches about FS/GR. This has to be a grassroots level effort.

The ISWA should exert more control over local FS/GR tournaments. ISWA, please consider a list for all FS/GR local tournaments requiring: 1- Online registration, waiver & payment. 2- The first whistle must blow by 9 am. 3- A participant must have their first match within one hour of their age group scheduled start time. 4- A specific number of surfaces per X number of wrestlers. 5- Standard price structure. ISWA, please consider the following calendar alterations: 1- Commence FS/GR within two weeks after HS Team State. 2- No local folkstyle tournaments after ISWA Folkstyle State.