WingMan

I know the rules on forfiets...the coach has the luxury to forfiet just before the match, however I am curious as to why they do that and why doesn't their athlete take a loss? It is my understanding that the wrestler recieving the forfiet gets a win and the team gets the points but, the wrestler forfieting isn't penalized. Seems to me that this "strategy" is only there to protect records, which is a poor excuse. If a team has capable wrestlers (capable being not injured, and has wrestled previously in the meet or in rest of the meet) and they choose not to wrestle them in one duel then shouldn't there be a penalty to the team giving the forfiet? Basically, if a team wrestlers a weight class at a meet and has healthy wrestlers, then decides to not wrestle a weight class (in which they have wrestlers on the roster at that weight class who are healthy and continue to compete in the meet) then the individual should take a loss. I also believe that if a weight class is forfieted early in a meet, then they have to forfiet that weight class the rest of the meet. Just seems like a bunch of crap to me. I know some of you call it strategy, but I call it crap. Not all, but most wrestling teams have a second for each weight class on Varsity or JV team that can stand in if there is an injury. There is just no excuse that I can think of... Looking forward to this feedback.

I believe weight loss and conditioning is between the athlete, the parents and the coach...I read the article and I have to agree that it didn't reflect well on the sport of wrestling. Would have been great if the reporter knew something about the sport and how body-fat is taken and monitored and reflects on the amount of weight a wreslter can cut. Not very many kids in this sport wrestle at their "walking around weight" they push-away from the table, don't eat twinkies or sit in front of the TV/Video games and they work hard to be where they are at. Weight management is somewhat personal, talking to tabloids/rags about weight cutting doesn't help the sport or local programs (our local paper is a rag...so I call all newspapers the same...tabloids or rags...as I have yet to find one that report positively on the sport of wrestling). Cutting weight isn't what it used to be, it is now monitored and I believe that the athletes, parents and coaches watch the weight cutting very closely. While this was a relevant post, I was hoping to see others who were at Chesterton ask one of the questions I had...why didn't Elkhart wrestle either of their two 171 pounders against Lynde? They had already won the dual, yet they opted to forfiet. If someone can explain that strategy I would greatly appreciate it. Sorry to change the subject.

Results: Munster - 1st Elkhart Mem - 2nd Delphi - 3rd McCutcheon - 4th Chesterton - 5th Shenandoah - 6th Sorry I don't have the actual team scores, but I am sure someone will post them. There were some very questionable forfiets during the tournament. Anyone who attended the meet will understand what I mean.

In the Delphi conference, Central Catholic (private school) was accepted into our conference effective 2011. I also heard that Faith Christian (also a private school in the Lafayette area) was just acknowledged by the IHSAA, which tells me they are next. Does that dilute our annual matches or make them better...that is the question which is yet to be answered until 2011 (at least).

Great info. And that weight is tough at state, which makes for great wrestling. Thanks.

I agree that Devon Jackson gets overlooked as well. He looked great at state. But I maintain that Sims is one to watch as well. And just a question, anyone have any idea how many 103 pounders are upper classmen (upper classmen as in Junior and Seniors). I see some monsters at that weight at state and our 103 pounder is typically a freshman and that is typical in our area. But some of those boys you see at the semi-state/state level are truly experienced and cut...just curious. And in regards to the Welch twins. Not only are they great wrestlers, they display great sportsmanship on the mat which is a real package.

So my apologies to the Shepard clan (and I truly mean that) as I thought this came from them and was shocked to see such a post on Lynde's move coming from them. And I am from Rossville so I do know something about the situation of their move. And my comment about Delphi needing him more than he needed them was made only to make a point that their move wasn't based on wrestling. I believe both Delphi and Lynde have benefited, but the post making it looked like Lynde moved for wrestling was uncalled for. And whoever made the comment on it counting when you wrestle under the lights is correct. That is where it counts. I just don't like seeing comments made on family circumstances that aren't factual. And I don't believe I have posted comments/postings stating how good Lynde is, I have just been fishing for information on who else is out there at his weight class and how they are doing off season. With open-borders now in effect and (at least in our area) we see a lot of kids shuffle schools for academic reasons, sports, family circumstances I just think people should be careful about what they post that are just opinions. As I am not looking to prove my credibility, I will take the advice and note that I am Tanner Lynde's mother. And to read how "we" made the move to Delphi for wrestling was quite insulting not only to me but to a kid who was 13 when we made the move (and wrestling was never considered as we have multiple great wrestling clubs in this are). So once again, my apologies to the Shepard clan (and I will personally apologize to them the next time I see them - I jumped to a bad conclusion, and I am glad I was wrong). And if my post offended anyone else, I apologize for that as well. While my response to this post may have been a bit too harsh and uncalled for, so are posts made by people making assumptions and using kid's names regarding decisions (like a family move, which in my situation, was out of my kids hand except reviewing school curriculums) that read like the family made a move for sports. Once again, feel free to email me or post on this, as I get that my post offended many and I didn't mean to offend anyone other than the person who posted the comment about Lynde moving to Delphi for wrestling without having the facts.

I have to second the recommendation to put Simms on the list as well as the Welch boys. What about Lynde? His first loss last year was in the Semi-State finals and then at State (to a Welch). He went out with three losses last year and went undefeated at Disney Duals in the largest school group.

This is directly to BC/Western, Lynde moved to Delphi when he was in the 7th grade. At that time he had multiple All-American titles in wrestling and two state titles. If you thinking moving to Delphi was a career move for T Lynde you are dead wrong. I know the kid and titles don't mean anything to that boy unless it is a title earned at Conseco. The family moving to Delphi had nothing to do with wrestling as he already had record that he earned. If anything, Delphi was the benificiary of such a move. And your right, his dad coached at Rossville for 9 years as the wrestling varsity coach. Furthermore, there was no recruiting from Delphi regarding Tanner. However, once it was out that they were looking to move it was funny how the wrestling jobs came to his dad from the Lafayette area and said high school curriculum documentation was sent to them in the mail. The Lynde move was from a small in-town home in Rossville to five acres on the Wabash. They are outdoorsmen and moved for that reason. T Lynde also has two sisters that were considered in the move (one older and one younger). I understand what "appearances" might look like, but T Lynde didn't need Delphi, they needed him. Get your facts straight before slamming a family and kid for moving when the kid was 13. I don't know who BC/Western is, but if they are located between Russiaville and Kokomo they should know better than posting this crap about T, because I believe you are the family in the Western area that has kids and coaches that have been competing with T Lynde since T Lynde was four and now T has surpassed them - so get over it. Shame on you if you are who I think you are (or one of the Shep brothers). Feel free to send me a personal message and I will set this straight with you if there are any questions regarding the Lynde move to Delphi. And quit posting crap you don't know anything about. And by the way, Rossville is a far better school than Delphi in the Elementary area but in high school, Delphi surpasses what Rossville can offer hands-down and that is THE reason they made the move. (And yes, Central Catholic and Lafayette Jeff heavily recruited T Lynde so put that in your pipe and smoke it.)

And I thought the responses would be on the appreciation of GoldBond! #21...knowing the competition through-out the season, wins/losses/placements and their weakness. In my opinion, that is a great wrestler as it takes time and commitment as it is research and great wrestler's know their competition. In regards to item #11...There will never be another tattoo like Sean M's...he set the stage with that one and there are many, many kids who want a tattoo unique to them on their thigh...mine included (but at least he isn't looking for a long-lost tribe). I hate to say it as a parent, but Sean's tat is pretty cool and took some balls. So with this being said, here is #21.A... 21.A : Understanding that tattoo's mark you forever and you better be able to back up what you advertise. #22: Grades, nothing is more dissapointing to a team, coach or parent to see a key wrestler flunk off the team. In regards to elementary, middle-school and high school wrestlers, this probably should have been #1 on my list. #23: Appreciating a great coaching staff and that includes the managers, the assistants, the head coaches and the custodians who clean their mats. Who hasn't watched a match only to see the young manager signal the coach with a point dispute only to be right? If I had to vote on the best quality of a wrestler it would be several that have been mentioned but I hate to say it, the comment on a vice grip like a pit-bull really says it all (along with humility).

JTM2004 has it correct. I would also add the following (some of my points have already been made): 1. Humility 2. The ability to turn it on and off depending on your competition (not cool embarrassing kids if you are the superior athlete) 3. The ability to choke down steamed, broiled or any food not fried to make your parents happy during wrestling season. 4. Eating a salad like it's your last meal. 5. The maturity of knowing when not to run the Jap on your mother (in my experience that is about the age of 13). 6. Getting up at 5 am to go work out before school and not complain. 7. Spending time with the little kids in the wrestling programs...and understanding why it's important. 8. Not complaining to the official during a match. 9. Coming home from a match and actually understanding the rules and knowing the when/where and why they got screwed by the official, but the conversation is in your living room (see item #1 on humility as well as item #8) not on the mat or during the meet/match. 10. Thinking cauliflower ear is cool and trying to convice parents that head gear isn't cool if not required in the tournament that they are participating in. (OK, so that is just stupid.)) 11. Finally realizing that tribal tattoo's lack individuality, unless they are actually from a tribe. 12. Appreciating GoldBond powder (ok, so maybe that's more football) 13. Understanding that the weakest wrestler on the team is still important and no matter what the score is, standing on the sidelines of the mat and cheering said weak wrestler on as if he can actually do it (and we have all seen those matches where the weaker wrestler has done it). 14. Conditioning, conditioning, conditioning...both mentally and physically. 15. Withstanding nose-tampons shoved into their nose in a crowded gym to stop bleeding only to get back on the mat to bleed more. 16. Sportsmanship... 17. Friendship with their opponents whether they win or lose. 18. The skill to wrestle mad, but have sportsmanship while doing so. 19. Making a point to read WIN magazine from front page to last page and having only great things to say about those Indiana boys noted in it (even if you have lost to them...see item #1 on humility). 20. Knowing when they got their butt kicked and not making excuses for it...my favorite rule. I could go on...but think I made my point

God we love the ticker (especially in minutes) to state! Anyone in this sport can surely relate as to how closely we all watch the "ticker" around the December/January time frame and follow it to the big event...and there is nothing more sur-real than seeing the "ticker" the night before the ticket round at Conseco. Thanks for posting it. It actually keeps our wrestler focused...really love the word "Only" in it (seriously).

I will say that our team's 103 lb-er last year weighed 98 pounds wet. He had many local/season successes but faced reality when we went to conference, sectionals...He actually wrestled some seniors at that weight class and that was a real eye-opener for me as my son wrestled 140 as a freshman and very rarely wrestled anyone his age or in his class, typically they were juniors or seniors (my point on this comment is two-fold, one being that I thought the average weight of a freshman should have been what my son weighed as that was my reference point and two is that I found it hard to believe that a senior could weigh 103! Both are my opinions, no facts to back anything up it was just my observation). Jocking weights could be good however aren't sports the best "life-lesson" out there? Who hasn't had a 25 year old grad-student who has never held a job, or paid their own college tuition get employed at their company with no OJT or experience? In my 15 years in the corporate world, those people don't last as they have no work ethic or understanding of what it means to work your butt off and suck it up to be the best you can be. Those people have a sense of entitlement and few of them, in my experience were athletes. This point is directed to anyone thinking the weight classes aren't fair. Life isn't fair, and changing the rules doesn't make a wrestler better. Work ethic pays off. If you are the small one, work harder. If you are in the mid-weights, work harder, heavyweight, same advice...it just doesn't matter as long as the wrestler is doing everything within their power to improve themselves. So to the writer with the two small wrestlers, what they are going through has to pay off. It might not be immediate, but it will eventually and it may not be on the mat. And in regards to high school letters...if they are not regulated by IHSAA they just don't matter (in any sport). Until that happens they mean nothing. Just my two-cents.

After a disappointing finish of 7th at Sophomore Nationals in Virgina Beach, T Lynde went undefeated at Disney Duals at 152 for the Penn Extreme Gold team. T looked the strongest both mentally and physically that I have ever seen him. Any predictions for the Indiana 2010-2011 season for Lynde?

Most important part I left out in my post. My son has parents...we don't need the school or football coach dictating what he can or cannot do since that is our job (as parents) to make those decisions. If rules/policy that I am reading in this thread were hammered upon my son, I would have a toe-to-toe with said coach with the AD and principal in the room, as "that dog would not hunt" without a policy in front of me from the school and the IHSAA stating that wrestlers cannot be football players. Everyone should remember that coaches are not politicians, they are not elected, they are hired. If their coaching responsibility is in their teaching contract, then ask to see the contract and look for the verbiage where they get to dictate on what their athlete can or cannot participate in (public schools, this should be public knowledge). If it's not in their contract and you are in a public school then call their bluff. Being a coach at the (public) high-school level is a privilege, not a right...I know that their programs are scrutinized but they are not the letter of the law when it comes to participation. I have confronted a few coaches in my time (and used to be one) and it appears to me that if they are setting rules not supported by the administration/school board that they will back track and start throwing those administrators under the bus. If a coach is being a bully then, as parents of kids in the public school system, it is our right to point it out and document it so when the "fat lady sings" you have documentation. Any football, basketball or baseball coach not allowing wrestler's to participate in their program is cutting their own throat. When you have more athleticism sitting in the bleachers of the home team instead of being in the game people talk.

After following approximately 62 pages of conversation on class wrestling (big school vs. small school) I thought I would start a topic regarding the "Cinderella Stories 2010/2011" that we can all look forward to this upcoming season. So, this topic is to discuss those wrestlers we don't read about much but have it going on. Who is getting it done in the off-season? Who are the sleepers out there? (And yes I know, as soon as we start talking about them they may not be "sleepers" anymore.) This isn't a trash session on the athletes, but more a topic for those of us who follow the sport from afar to have some idea as to who these wrestlers are so when we are at tournaments or see names on IndianaMat.com we can relate to the wrestler.

I have to be honest, I read every page up until page 26 and then jumped to page 62 to post my reply. My son has wrestled for two of the smallest schools in the state for the last 12 years (no, he's not retarded he just started at the age of 4 in the school's wrestling clubs). Since the age of 10, he didn't care which school his opponent was from (big or small) as he tracked the individual, not the school. No matter how big or small a school is has no direct effect on the individual wrestler other than the fact that the bigger school has a bigger pool of athletes to pick from. More athletes/participants do not make better wrestlers. The cream of the crop (in my opinion) come from the off-season programs they participate in AND the individual (think the "you can lead a horse to water, but not make him drink" analogy). The best wrestlers are not a product of the high-school wrestling program, season, practices or matches, at our home those are just "practice" for off-season AAU/USA matches and the state individual competition. Good high school coaches encourage this activity and help the athletes by fund-raising and with transportation to ensure participation (also my opinion). I believe if wrestling was classed, my son would hold no value in a state team title, for it would not represent the best of the best. The beauty of wrestling is the individuals get to compete as individuals and if they are lucky, there are enough of them on one team to take their team to a state title and compete in a tourney of their peers (those other schools, big or small) who made it that far. Off-season wrestling makes the wrestler and the team, and I apologize for repeating what others may have in pages 27 through 62. Also, whoever made the comment of high school wrestling having another 20 year life-expectancy I do hope you are wrong as I hope to follow this sport for a very long time. However, Rossville has already put an end-date to their program as the teachers want their very small, very humble wrestling room for another class room or teacher's lounge...or some other crap. Their decision has nothing to do with money it has to do with the fact that they don't value the sport and no longer have a coach who puts the effort in to the building blocks of the program (which are the little kids) therefore there has been no growth. That is a shame. Who doesn't like to watch a Cinderella story every February at Conseco, the kid from the small school, name not published on this website (at all or not very much), not ranked... wrestle (and sometimes, sometimes) slay giants? Outside of watching my son compete at that tournament, that is my favorite part of the whole experience. I will post a new topic called "Cinderella Stories" so anyone interested in the non-famous wrestlers or wrestlers from the small schools in the state can either brag or post their comments there. Good topic, a conversation that occurs in my house quite often. Hope I was not too redundant.

My son is in a 2A school and I have to say that the football coach completely supports the wrestlers who are putting the time in to take it to the next level. Never has my son been given any crap about wrestling during off-season during the pre-season football work-outs. My son is not alone as there are a hand-ful of wrestlers doing the same thing. I will also say that our football coach also has the advanced PE class at school which is pretty much reserved for the high school athletes and he supports all sports, not just football, not just wrestling. I am also confident that the football coach knows that their time in the wrestling room only makes his football team stronger. (Football coach's son just started youth wrestling so I think he gets it.) I think we are pretty lucky as I do believe some coaches are concerned for their program instead of the progress and flexibility of the kid as a multi-sport athlete both physically and mentally. Let me just say, it's a lot easier sitting on the bleachers at a football game watching my son (who is ~ 160 lbs) run the ball and his teammate who is blocking for him is a three-time wrestling state "placer" and national runner-up! He still got waxed occasionally, but when that happend his opponents usually didn't come back for seconds! I will also say that on our football team, one can sit on the sidelines and pick out the best conditioned kids on the team and they are wrestlers. Attentive coaches know that and respect and appreciate it. I actually thought only basketball coaches ran the schools...maybe that is just the case in my area. It is typical to see the varsity bench in this area 12 deep and most of them don't see any playtime...but the coach rules the roost so kids spend their high school careers riding the pine instead of trying something new, like a new sport. What a waste.

Great feedback. Thanks.

Just curious as to the credentials behind those posting rankings. Not being nasty, just curious. Are they coaches, fans, dads, officials or statisticians? Are comments made based on witnessing matches or reading the results? Just seems to me that a lot of kids get overlooked based on the result of the match (which does count with a win or a loss, trust me I know being second means you lost) but not the actual match itself and who was the dominant wrestler. Haven't we all seen the better wrestler lose for various reasons (getting caught, stalling, wrestling defensively instead of offensively or worst yet, just flat-out getting caught when you were out-scoring your opponent). It would really be nice to know what goes into the rankings each one posts and why they rank the way they do. Maybe my question should be a new thread...Once again, just curious.

Good info. The three gold AA's on our team were undefeated but the kid with only 2 losses did get bronze. We didn't have any with 1 loss to my knowledge to know how they fell into the system (gold or silver). Bottom line, how about 16 Indiana teams at Disney Duals and with our count (not official) Ohio and Illinois were the next states with the most teams present then followed by Florida. Too bad we don't have a venue like the ESPN Sport's Complex in this area as it appears that IN, OH and IL are populating the brackets more than any other state. Once again, this is based off of info on this site (as we were there and counted only 11 Indiana teams by visual recognition mostly as the brackets were often taken or incorrect). Stinks going that far to wrestle another Indiana team or, a team from a neighboring state. No doubt the "Mouse House" is a nice venue...but I can say I never sat pool-side with the wrestling schedule we had or had time to go the ocean.... With schedules like my son had we could have wrestled anywhere and not have know where we were. Just my 2-cents. Wouldn't a more centralized location (which would reduce costs) allow the boys to attend more events throughout the summer? Not complaining...just making an statement after attending this event for 3 years.

Not an expert but I believe the All-American criteria is as follows: (Someone speak up if I have this wrong.) AA - Gold no losses AA - Silver one loss AA- Bronze two losses AA- Copper three losses 3 losses was the criteria...just not sure how the acceptable AA "losses" of 3 factor into how many total matches wrestled and if the criteria I listed above would change if one wrestled more than the approx. 11 matches our wrestlers had. Please speak up if i have this wrong...we had three gold on our team and another boy on our silver team had two matches and got AA Bronze, so I believe this to be correct.

How about the 160 lb wrestlers? Any thoughts?

Penn Extreme Gold did place 3rd. And MJJ (215) also went undefeated along with Lynde and Atwood.

Those videos were incredible. Thank you for posting them. My position hasn't changed though. My money is on Fleeger, however if both young men are contributing to two great programs...I really don't want to see them wrestle as their teams need them to be healthy and on the mat with the athletes doing what they do best...right? Us arm-chair coaches can dream of an "ultimate" match-up, but look what they are doing for their respective programs...and the love/hate relationship between the two just make us all watch more Big Ten wrestling...did someone from Comcast Cable post this to get more people to sign up for the Big Ten Network? (That was a joke, please don't reply with cable channels, Direct TV channels or Dish Network channels...trust me, when wrestling comes on in my house in the "wee" hours of the morning, someone is watching it.) Once again, thanks for the video...Fleeger's speed on the attack was amazing!