base

Thanks for both examples. it has been a good discussion withyou. Wahoo for you! Best of luck with your wrestling team coach.

Joe, since you are living this reality, let's use Garrett as an example. If there was a classed system this year, and your team advanced pretty far in the tournament, say Semi-state or even state. You also had several wrestlers who advanced to the Class 2A state meet. What does this do for your program? Based on what you said earlier, I'm assuming that there aren't many untapped wrestling studs at your school who aren't already playing another sport. For those kids on your team who have a good potential, would they begin going to more of the additional training opportunities, or will they be playing spring soccer/baseball and fall baseball/football/soccer? I think the real-world example would really help me to see the light.

I can definitely buy that argument! So, given that -- what is the class wrestling tournament accomplishing? Based on what you're saying here, it doesn't sound as if there is a huge untapped pool of talent at these schools that would come out if the team was winning Class 2A Regionals or whatever it would be called. And the kids that are at the small schools may not see a tremendous improvement or increase in dedication to the sport either, because they are already stretched pretty thin. All I am left with is the objective to recognize the athletes at these schools who have chosen to possibly play multiple sports. You're slowly winning me over with some pretty good arguments, but I'm still on the side of the one-class system so far. But a good debate!

Do the Laville kids attend offseason wrestling training? Do they go to wrestling camps? Can they go to open wrestling rooms at Mishawaka and Penn in the offseason to get good competition? Do they participate in any ISWA meets? I "think* that the only advantage Mishawaka and Penn wrestlers have over their Laville peers is what happens in the Mishawaka and Penn wrestling room during the season (unless I'm wrong and they run a closed room in offseason). Mishawaka is only one school. In the individual tournament, four spots get to go on to Regionals. So if you concede that Laville has no hope against a Mishawaka wrester, ever, then they still are battling for one of 3 spots to move on. This argument (on an individual basis, not team) sounds like Laville individual wrestlers are simply not at the same level as others at their sectional tournament, so you woudl like to lower the bar until there is a point where they will be good enough to advance. P.S. please keep in mind, Laville here is only being used as an example -- I don't any kids on their team and I am not saying they are poor wrestlers, please do not take this personally, you can replace the "Laville" name with any other small school perhaps.

Even if they only end up with 3 inches, seems like a 2-hour delay won't be a major inconvenience for people, tourney shoudl still end plenty early, and best of all -- the high schoolers get to SLEEP IN!

The statistics do look pretty impressive, however you probably also have to consider that along with the change to a classed tournament, there is also a change of location, and a change in venue which may hold more people. If an Indiana change to a class system happened in conjuction with a move of the tournament from Evansville to Indiaanpolis, I woudl also expect a large jump in attendance. Buffalo for sure is at the extreme northern end of the state, I doubt if very many NYC/Long Island peole made the drive for that. Albany is very central within the state. With regards to the question about California, I wouldn't say that their change shoudl automatically signal a change in Indiana. Y2, you're a great statesman for the pro-classing group. I am interested in hearing what you consider the main reason for going to the class system, so far you've thrown out there: attendance level the playing field more participation at the HS team level what other ones you got?

I think that classing individual tournaments may have made more sense in prior decades. Then, it was likely that a high school wrestler was solely a product of his high school (and maybe middle school) wrestling programs. Now, however, many wrestlers are a product of youth clubs, lessons with individual instructors, summer camps, and other available training opportunities. The high school they attend is not as much the sole determinant for individual wrestling success that it used to be. A small school that can encourage kids at a young age to attend a good youth program (even one that might be in a neighboring high school district) has a good chance to field a good team of athletes. Again to the team point, based on average size of high school age kids, it is less likely that they will be able to fill all the weight classes like a larger school would, and for that reason I would side with class wrestling for the team event.

I compare them because as an individual tournament (whether on national or state level) there is no consideration given to what school-type or club-type or wrestling program background to make it more fair. Some of the kids (Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Jersey) may come from states with lengthy wrestling traditions and be dominant, but there is no call or reason to create separate classes in order to give states with lesser programs any advantage. Each wrestler must stand alone. Likewise with Indiana state tourney. I won't argue the point that it may perhaps get more kids to come out for wrestling programs -- I'm undecided on that one, but cant' argue against it -- but other than hoping for an up-tick in participation, I see no reason to change the current individual tournament format. Team state -- yes, makes sense to me. Individual --- no.

A debate point in favor of class-less wrestling in Indiana: Take a look at any of the major non-state-run tournaments. Fargo, Tulsa Nationals, etc. When a wrestler goes there they are entered in the individal tournament. No thought is given to what size school, or what background they have, or anything like that. The tournament's purpose is singular -- to determine the single best wrestler at the given weight classes. In my opinion, splitting the individual tournament into classes would be a mistake. Last year, Cody Phillips and Michael Duckworth from Union County were the BEST at their weight class in the state. They were given an opportunity to prove that, and they did it. Given the hypothetical scenario that yes, they won the 1A or 2A or whatever class they would have been in state championship, but Atwood won at another class, and maybe Stein from a third class. In my opinion, that would REALLY take away from knowing that one is a true state champion.

I'm unclear as to the format of this team tournament. Does the winner (based on team points) from each of the individual sectional tournaments gain entry? Or does every IHSAA team get entry? Or what? Gracias!

Joe, that is a good question. Here is my take on it. I think post-season success is only one factor of marketing a wrestling program. I'm not the coach at a small school, so of course all my ideas are from "theory" only. I realize you are out there working in the real world as a small program coach, and you may legitimately say that these ideas are good in theory, but not practical. Here's just some ideas off the top of my head how I would approach it: 1. DEFINITELY begin with the youth/feeder program. The best way to ensure a strong high school program is to shore up the feeder program. Having some little kids myself, I can tell you that at the elementary age, they have absolutely no concept of whether or not the high school program is qualifying kids for state, or whether or not the team is advancing out of sectionals. I would work with the other local youth athletics (football, soccer, baseball, even basketball) and build a good relationship with those coaches/league directors. Ask them to encourage kids to come out and try wrestling. They know the kids, the kids usually trust them. They can be a huge ally for steering more kids to give wrestling a shot. For the youth wrestlers, I would have several clinics that are free for any kids to come out and try wrestling. I think many parents would be willing to take the kids to try it out if there wasn't an immediate upfront financial commitment like many of the youth clubs seem to be (you have to join USA wrestling and the local club) Make the clinics a lot of fun, mixing in wrestling-related games while you are showing the kids a few moves. I think that the majority of 2nd-5th grade kids LOVE the idea of having the knowledge to grab another kid and be able to wrestle them to the ground. I would personally not make these free clinics overly-technical. But I might have a couple of your skilled high school wrestlers to come in and do some live wrestling (and they better be VERY active) while you explain briefly how points are scored, what are the three periods, etc. Can you get some time in the local elementary school PE classes to have a couple of wrestlers come with you and give a demo, then show all the PE kids how to do a double leg and a half nelson to pin someone? Do some creative promotions to get the kids to come out and watch the high school matches. You can pick up little marketing gimmicks online (oriental trading company) in bulk prices for next to nothing. Make up some tie-dye tshirts and throw them out into the audience. Anything to get people to talk about it the next day at school and come back for more. What do high school kids want -- somewhere they can go for cheap, hang out with friends, and act like a fool. Look at how many college basketball programs have attracted a rowdy student section -- they have a designated section like the Paint Crew (Purdue) or the Cameron Crazies (Duke). Buy them some hair paint, again have t-shirts made up, give them something "cool" to be a part of. Can you think of any way to have a "halftime" or some break in the action, and invite elementary kids to come down on the mat and do something (not sure what) -- like they let kids shoot freethrows at halftime of basketball? Have one match a year (preferably one that you are pretty sure your team will win) where you have a "pack the house" night. Reduced or free tickets or let them in free if they bring a can of food for a local food pantry. Offer that your assistant coach will shave his head if the team wins by a set amount of points, heck let some elementary kids take clippers and buzz the hair right there in the gym. If you can dim the lights in the gym and put a single lamp down over the mat (similar to the state finals), do it -- that is a cool environment. There's got to be some kids out there that will see one of the kids on your team score a pin, hear the crowd hopefully go WILD for him, see his hand raised, and think to himself "woah, I want to be a part of that!" Again, just throwing out some random ideas

If you want to advance the sport of wrestling, I still contend that you need to make it a program that kids at the high school and middle school level want to be a part of the action. There needs to be a buzz created about wrestling. It needs to be the "cool" thing to do. Otherwise, I think the majority of today's attention-deficit, texting/video game playing teens are going to find better, easier ways as an outlet of their energy than working their butt off in the wrestling room night after night.

My personal opinion is that the state team tournament should be classed, but the individual tournament should not. I think there are some other factors that have kept the participating numbers down for wrestling that haven't been mentioned yet: 1. Tradition/knowledge. Most fathers know how to play baseball/football/basketball. A good coach will have a technical expertise far beyond the normal dad on all of these sports, yet many parents consider themselves "armchair experts" because they've understand the basic rules and have grown up around these mainstream sports. Most parents do *not* possess a good working knowledge of wrestling -- neither technique or rules/scoring. A non-wrestling parent is highly unlikely (in my opinion) to enroll a youngster into a youth wrestling program, while they are probably highly likely to at least try little league baseball or soccer. 2. Marketing. Basketball is still the king in Indiana, why do wrestling programs try to compare themselves in terms of crowds/attendance to basketball or football. Football games are once a week, on a weekend night (Friday) and are therefore an "event" much more so than a weekday wrestling meet would be. If you are familiar with any of the semi-pro teams around Indiana, what do they do to set themselves apart and develop a following? Marketing, is my opinion. Have a "pack the gym" night with free admission, strobe lights, heavy metal music....whatever it takes to develop a following at your school. I see it as the only way to get non-wrestling fans introduced to the sport, and hopefully they will learn to love the excitement, energy, and adrenaline rush of a great wrestling meet. 3. One concern I have of putting the schools in classes -- to me, this is no guarantee that more people would come out for the small school programs. And really, would a meet with both teams having 6 forfeits be any less exciting than one where one school forfeits 6 matches to a large school? Just random thoughts, thanks all for the ideas expressed and it's clear everyone really does want to continue to improve wrestling in Indiana.

Ian Hinton

Rulon Gardner US Olympic hockey victory over Soviet team

I can understand your perspective as a coach or parent of one of the wrestlers. No sense having the kids get overconfident or building up unnecessary stress due to seeing their draw. However, for the rest of us casual (or sometimes not-so-casual) fans out here, we just want to see the brackets to see some of the various matches around the state. I'm not as familiar with many of the kids in Northern Indiana, so I'd like to see it to see who to look for advancing out of each of the sectionals.

Nicely played, sir! Accept this wahoo.

A dramatic re-creation of the Crown Point brackets arriving at Indianamat.com headquarters in the morning...

I nominate this for post of the century. Wahoo for you, sir, wahoo.

How about Ditka versus the team of Duckwood, Atwood, Sliga, Stevenson, Thatcher and Johnson-Jones? Gotta go with Ditka in a first period fall.

Nothing against Roach at all. I'm sure he is favored. When I chose my predictions for state champs this year I picked Surma for no particular reason, and I believe him to be a "pinner". So I'm more or less giving him a good chance to get a pin in the finals should he make it (versus whoever his opponent is, not singling out Roach)

1. Phillips 2. Surma Not going with Tsirtsis/Wright/Duckworth cause I'm guessing they tend to be more high-scoring than pinning.

Choose one wrestler. Who will be the most dominant in their FINAL match at state (not the entire state finals, just the championship match). DOMINATOR award will go to wrestler with the fastest pin in their championship match. If there are no pins in the finals, then the award would go to the winning wrestler with the largest point spread for their final match. 2009 DOMINATOR: 1. Cody Phillips, Fall 2:34 (103) 2. Daniel Young, Fall 5:32 (145) 3. Jason Tsirtsis, 16-3 (125) 2008 DOMINATOR: 1. Andrew Howe, 22-9 (160) 2. Brennan Cosgrove, 13-5 (145) 3. (tie) Cooper Samuels, 7-0 (171) (tie) Justin Woods, 9-2 (215) 2007 DOMINATOR: 1. Cooper Samuels, Fall 1:22 (160) 2. Chico Adams, Fall 2:50 (285) 3. Andrew Howe, TF 26-9 (152) 2006 DOMINATOR: 1. Chad Biddle, Fall 2:22 (145) 2. Javier Salas, Fall 3:18 (119) 3. Dexter Larimore, 12-1 (275)

24-14 Colts

There was a thread on here saying that 112 Gonzalez lost to Todd in OT