Oscar

I decided to go back to the beginning and start reading through this discussion and I got as far as page two and read this.I think the cows are home . What do you think? Moooooooooooo !!

I said I was trying to read people. The operative word is "trying". I never claimed to have all the answer. My read this weekend was that even some of those who have had experience particpating in team state would not be that upset to see it go. The individual state tournament is were it all happens and that can include crowning a team state champion as it did before the trial time of the team state tournament. Can you crown individual state champions from the team state tournament format? No you can not. Can you crown a team state champion from the individual tournament? Yes you can? Do you bring in more revenue from team state or individual state? Can you make up revenues by improving individual state and increasing the fees. ? These are the real questions the IHSAA will be looking at. Not my or your opinion of whether we should keep it or not. If I had a vote, and I do not, I would vote to go back to the individual format to crown the team champion. I have expressed my concerns to some people who do have an influence on the process.What ever prevails I will just have to go along.

It was mainly just a confirmation of what I have already suspected which leads me to believe we need to make some changes. I spoke to at least a dozen different people. I am a student of psychology and I am constantly trying to read people. I did have one deja vu moment about "do it for the team" that really flipped my switch. It is a little complicated. That is the best I can do. I think you can figure it out.

The answer to your first question is-- yes . Many times. I would have agreed with you years ago before I began to see some things develop. Now I feel differently. A team is a family and a family is built in a community and around frienships. I do not suggest any selfishness but this sport is built around individual hard work so it is hard to seperate the perception of selfishness. It is just that a perception. Again at one time I would have bought it but now I see differently. What you suggest is exactly the kind of argument that is used to manipulate kids and sometimes parents in to believing you do things for the team whether they are good,right,unethical or not. My idea of team just differs in this case. That is the best I can do to explain.

Timeinandout To answer your first question. No. That is a decision that the kid should make with guidance from his parents and a responsible coach. You seem to miss my point. Traditional for me means long standing. Maybe a 100 years before my time and a 100 years after my time. Not just my time. To answer your second question. Again -- No. They did, however, lose weight to make the varsity team because that is how you get better. First by working harder to give yourself the opportunity to face the other kids who where working harder across the state to make their varsity line up. You are only allowed one entry per weight class per school so you had to make the varsity line up to compete for a state title individually. The team part came from friendship and community not from some idea of chasing a Team State Championship. To address your last statement. You heard right. The one I remember was Cathedral vs Blomington South. It was a great traditional rivalry. I think it still is today. Sorry "T" but I long for the day when kids can be kids again.

After getting out for the first weekend of Indiana High School wrestling and mingling with the crowd I am convinced more than ever we should discontinue the team state tournament. It seems we have drifted away from what drew myself and many others to this sport in the first place. It was a place to compete where size did not matter and earning a spot on the team was decided by your own willingness to work hard. My sole focus was to be a state champion and my coach helped me work towards that goal. I hear all too often today from kids who say they are being cohersed to do things like cut weight unnecessarily to accommodate the "team". In the end they begin to associate the sport with an unpleasant experience and this can not be good for the sport. Way back when, when I was in High School we had a great team. No we did not win a team state title but we were a bunch of kids just having a great time and enjoying the sport as kids being kids. I have great memories and feelings for the sport and I never won a single title. This just does not seem to be the case today. The coaches all too often ask kids to do things to accommodate the "team" in the elusive chase for a team state title. Lets just get back to the old traditional way of deciding this thing. First in the room where an unbiased wrestle off decides who should fill the spot, and not some coaches idea of how to fill his roster to give him the best chance to make it to team state, then on the mat where the coach can not be during the match. There is a lot to be said for tradition. We need to go back to the old way. The one that tradition follows and give this thing back to the kids. So kids can be kids again and come away with positive feelings for this sport.

Not one stud on all those teams ????? HMMMM Really ?? Spin Baby Spin.You will not and I repeat will not get to team state without a core of studs. Teaching, now I can go for that. Do we teach them how to fill a roster so we can get to team state? Just wondering. Do we teach them the importance of getting an education? If Possible beyond high school. Just wondering? I really think this team state thing has become a load.I wonder if Bobby Cox gives a ...hit(excuse me) about my perspective. Spin Baby Spin.

Basketball?????? Better tell Iowa that National title don't mean squat. Not me ! I'll send them your regards HA ;D

It is decided by a team. It is just a different way. This is the same way the NCAA decides Team National Championship. What is good enough for the NCAA should be good enough for the state of Indiana. The old way puts focus on developing the individual to the highest level. The higher you place your individuals the greater the chance for a Championship.It is more of a win - win situation. Individuals are not asked to compromise their best chance at individual accomplishment to accommidate the team to fill the line up in such a way to earn the most points for the team. Team to team scoring is a whole differnt mathimatical formula than team tournament scoring. I believe the team tournament scoring may keep the thing more focused in the right place. On the individual kids who are working to get to the next level.

Damn ! I am getting dizzy with all this stuff. I see hidden agendas from all sides. Money issues, parity issues,fairness issues,logistics issues and the fact that this whole thing is just a big pain in the ass. The last thing I read tells me this is a done dead deal and given all the issues probably should be. It is giving me a headache and I am sure it is giving Bobby Cox one too. The old way is easier and the money can be made up at individual state. Every one seemed to be ok with the old way for th first 100 years of Indiana Wrestling. Who dreamed up Tean State? How many other states have this format. It probably was well intended at its inception but too many things have spun out of control. I could take it either way but I would like to see if the old way might change some things for the better. Here is a statistic I would like to see. The number of kids who go on to wrestle in college from team state qualifiers vs non team state qualifiers. This is just one reason I see Individual state as more significant and why not make it a bigger and better show and stop spending so much time with the team state thing.

Team State Wrestling is just for fun and it will come down to $$$$$$$. Does it help grow the sport? Probably, but it is only open to a few teams. Mostly 5A and Private schools who legally or illegally(This is obviously a grey area) recruit,entice ,encourage or whatever you want to call it, the top wrestlers to their school. The old way kept the sport more pure and did not lend itself to sometimes unethical practice one would have to adopt in order to have a chance to get to team state. The only way I am going to team state is if my school sponsers it and then I get to attend for FREE. $$$$$$$$. There are other ways to grow our sport. Healthier growth I Hope. Let Us put it to a vote. 311 schools in a 1 Class system. Each school gets ONE vote. Bye Bye Team State

It may never be over . Cheating goes on and on and on and on. This is just one example. Swish, swish,, swish!!!! That is the sound of the broom sweeping it under the rug.

Great men do not Lie and Cheat." The world is made up of winners and losers. Winners sometimes lose but they due so with their dignity and honor in place." That is the measure of a great man in my book. Oscar

This whole thing is political joke. We all know what the truth is and we are trying to sweep it under the rug and act like it did not happen. That is especially true of the Rietz contingent. Hell I will just come out and say the are a bunch of __________ and ________ ers. I think the poem said it the best. Just look in the mirror. So much for integrity. You fill in the blanks. What, did we feel sorry because he was a ranked wrestler from a top twenty team.? It just wasn't right he should be DQed even if he did miss weight. Boo Hoo :'( :'(

All Points taken. I would go with the suggestion we seed using the same criteria as something like the Al Smith. Hell, we could use the "genius ranking system" at the regional level to start and then let a panel of coaches pound it out in good ole' seeding meeting This panel should consist of the 8 finalist as well as a mix of knowledgeable wrestling experts' These could come from several areas. Anything would be better than drawing names out of a hat, which relies on chance. Why are people so afraid of debate? Do you think every thing in life should be as easy as drawing your outcome in life from a hat. To me that is stupid. If we are going to keep the system the way it is, then at least stop handing out "RED" rings for runner up and medals for third and fourth. Who would disagree that Perry was not #1 or #2 in 2006 and 2008 only to be knocked out in the first round due to the Lucky Duck draw system. When they have finished in the final match they were not the # 1 or #2 team but got there by way of chance draw. I guess we could just go back to the old way. That is how the NCAA decides who is champion and no one complains. There is a great deal of complacency with regard to who could work for this change.It comes down to this, we should stop complaining about bad draws and stop handing out awards for 2nd through 8th and just crown the state champion as the IHSAA claims is its goal or we should change it. Let us just be honest about the runner up awards issue.

I believe I made this point last year under the "Lucky Duck" Post. Point is some of us like to use the Runner Up title for boasting and strapping on a blue ring. There is a great deal of hypocricy here. We all have a very good idea of who is the second through 20th best team in the state is and that is how seeding should work. Why does the Indiana Mat have a team ranking system if it doe not really mean anything. We just keep the system of "chance" in play year after year. It is the same with individual state. Who will get screwed this year? Who will get lucky? The only reason teams accept the RunneUp award is because they never get it when they are suppose to. Example well made Mr. Thornton 2006 and 2008. If those years had been seeded Perry might have even won state. Weight starting spot and momentum could have been on your side. The excuse that this could not be seeded is a load of political crap.

Are you confirming Tonte is out ? The last time you started talking like this was just before the Mishawaka Match. That is a scary thought !!!

There are many issues I would like some feedback on. So many I do not know were to begin. My son is really struggling right now to balance grades and competing for a spot at Conseco. I feel wrestling is harder to do this in than any other sport. The fact that it splits both semesters(covers two middle quarters) , Maintaining weight, (this may be the biggest issue) and the fact that this is one of the hardest sports for which to train competetively . This inquiry comes about because I just had a meeting with a teacher who stated that my son was a "typical" wrestler. I believe she was being critcal. Not supportive. I believe being acedimic ALL STATE in this sport is a much higher honor than being a State Champ but lets give the average student a break. Stories or thoughts?????? Respecfully Oscar

That is a possible 12 point swing . If that happens Perry is toast ! Just look at the last match up (North Montgomery) If Bloomington South is at full strenghth and IF Tonte is out then look for BS to challenge.It would tighten up and come down to bonus points; maybe even criteria. Obviously I pick Bloomington over Franklin, no disrespect, I am just going by the numbers.

This is off the charts-- COOL!!!! My hat is off to you guys. Is individual rankings next?? Just kidding. Great job !!

Everyone should just "prepare" to wrestle. Things like this happen every year. It is an imperfect system. It is an IHSAA problem. They are the only one who can fix it. I was on the end of this a few years back and bitched until I was blue in the face. To no avail, nothing has changed. Just wait until you are in the round to go at Semi State and you are the # 3 or #4 guy facing #1 or #2 guy in the state.Worse yet, when you wake up Sunday morning after you have been eliminated from state competition and 14 of the guys going on, you beat the crap out of in the regular season. Even worse 2 of those guys you beat the crap out of twice during the season end up placing in the top 8. Don't expect me to cry a river for anyone. You boys should just prepare to wrestle your best no matter what !! Life will go on.

For those of you who are not familiar with Oscar you should read my quote at the bottom, which is associated with my screen name. The purpose of starting this thread was not to be critical of anyone, especially the ranking guy or y2 . I was and still am a little confused. I was not even referring to the 215 weight class. This is after all a "Discussion" board and good discussion of a topic should hopefully generate improvement. I assume all of us are or were wrestlers at one time. Many of us state champs or state placers. Was there ever a point were you felt you could not improve? Even if you were a state champ. Please no slamming. Be respectful. As I said before, I do appreciate what the Indiana Mat people do. Muchas Gracias !

Has that criteria been stated before? That is all I am trying to get at here. I do not want to change anything necessarily unless it can be made better. I am just trying to understand. Like I said. I am confused and I am wondering just how many people are just as confused. What you state here indicates that the rankings are some what of crap shoot with some criteria thrown in so we get some of it right. I will say, that the picture is becoming a little clearer. By the way I am not trying to be critcal for the sake of putting anyone down, but for the sake of improvement. I too appreciate what you guys do for wrestling. Respectfully Oscar

Sorry I ran a lot of stuff together. I was in a hurry before work. My point is that time and time again I see someone who has not been mentioned(Ranked) win one match against a ranked kid and all of a sudden he is a stud and the other kid is a dud. It really makes no sense. It is more complicated than that. Or maybe I am just making it too complicated. I guess I feel a more valid ranking would include some kind of "Sarigin" power ranking as to eliminate the geography problem with relationship to strenghth of schedule. This would eliminate the up and down movement associated with "one" big win. Hope this makes it a little clearer. Respectfully Oscar P.S. To the other responses. I am not trying to get my son ranked. I have been at this long enough to know were my son fits in the mix. I am also informed enough to realize the rankings have no bearing on who will be at Conseco.For example : At my sons weight class there are 5 kids that could possibly earn that 4th ticket spot to Conseco. Four will go home that day and everyone will forget them.On the other hand there will be three kids who get a ticket out of the Fort Wayne Semi who the four that went home could have probably beaten and quite possibly did during the season. That is the geography issue. This is the main reason they should have wrestle backs at all levels. That is a whole different post that has been discussed many times, to no avail. \

Individual Rankings Confound Me?????? Could someone please make some sense out of it for me. For example if my son gets lucky and headlocks the #1 guy while he is getting beat 13-0 and pins the # 1 guy, while my son has 25-0 record against the comp on his schedule . Geography is a funny thing. Now ranking people tell me were my son might be ranked. This is a make believe scenario. But this is what I see happening. Your rankings could use more validity. You need a statistical genious like Thornton to break down more details.