ENoblewrestling

It was pointed out in another post that the team state tournament in Ohio has been ran by their coaches association for about the last 20 years. Given all of the disscussion on here about our association attempting to start our own I think it would be interesting to take a look at Ohio's system to see what could work here in Indiana. Does anyone know any of the following- 1. Where these duals the only recognized champ in Ohio, do they also have an individual champ? 2. Is it all in or an invite? 3. How many teams get to participate at the actual finals? 4. Number of classes? 5. Dates and location. 6. How did it start, if we want ours to someday grow into this how did it start out? 7. If Ohio can do this why can't we? Thanks in advance to anyone who could help answer these questions. I think this could make for very helpful discussion.

Fair enough. I know others feel differenly, others feel the same as you do. One last question for you on this. Seeing that it would have been an optional event that you would have had to apply for do you think you would have applied for it? I mean even if you werent excited for it would you have went to it even though you werent excited for it?

Dont you think that the teams that were there would make a huge difference in the perception of this event. - These teams come from the end of the season genius rankings, its not exactly who would be there but you'll get the picture If 3a had- Perrt, Carmel, Crown Point, Penn, Lawrence North, Mishawaka, roncolli, Hamilton Southeastern 2A- Yorktown, Bellmont, EVMD, Jimtown, Southmount, Ev. Memorial, Fairfield, Bishop Dwenger 1A- South Adams, Prarie Heights, Adams Central, Delphi, Northfield, Alexandria, Fountain Central, Woodlan If these teams were at an event wrestling to be crowned the best team in their class in Indiana dont you think it would be recognized as more than just another super dual. These are the top teams, and the best team would be the winner in the end. It all comes down to who participated in the event. If the top teams went I think it would clearly be a bigger event than any other event outside our state tournament.

Y2 we both coach at programs that were around top ten ranked programs in our class according to the genius rankings. I would imagine that the IHSWCA would have used a similar program to choose the eight teams that went to the state finals. So it is feasible that either of our teams could have been invited. Im sure you've thought about that at least for your group. Where you guys not excited about the prospect f having a chance to be invited to Indianapolis to take on the best teams that are similar to your size to prove who the best 2A team in the state was? You dont think that you guys could have sold the event to your administration and your community? How do you think Garrett would react to you being invited down?

I am not saying that there will not be team state champions. There will be team state champions still they are just crowned in a flawed method. Im not saying that means that they shouldnt be happy to win the title, or that it doesnt mean something very important that does not take away from the fact that it is a flawed system. Just look at the sectionals and regionals under this system. You could have a deeper, better team win the sectionals, and then the next weekend a weaker team with more studs who lost the sectional could win the regional after it was all ready shown that they were not as good as a team as a whole in the sectionals. As far as us riding firetrucks through Busco, I'd say yes for sure on a sectional title. I personally believe that there would be the same reaction for an IHSWCA title, but it is tough to say. It comes down to the perception of the event. If the top teams where there, in all classes, then yes I would say that it would be excepted as a real title. In practice we had all ready began to sell it to our kids in that way. I know that our kids were excited to have a chance to compete for a small school title next season. With the set up that was proposed this seasons success would have made a big difference in who got invited. Now that it is gone it will not ruin our season, but it will take away something that the kids had a chancd to work for.

I guess that would be up to the schools themselves. I do know that I have seen schools with rugby, hockey, and lacrosse state titles that have those banners hanging up next to all of the IHSAA titles, they just say something like IHSRA state champs or something like that.

To win a state title, or at least prove that you have the best team in the state. Many feel that the IHSAAs method of choosing a champion is totally flawed and just rewards the team with the best few guys. A team dual event would show who truely has the best team. If the best teams in the state attended the IHSWCA event then I personally would see the teams that won that event as state champs as opposed to seeing a team crowned state champs by the IHSAA without proving it on the mat. For me it doesn't matter who crowns the champ, but how their crowned. I would always recognize the dual champ as the true champ. But no one really would or should care about how I feel about this, the question would be if enough others feel the same as I do, or if they could only y recognize an IHSAA event as champ.

Just got your email, still trying to figure my 6-10 spots, got any suggestions.

Karl would you be willing to share those ideas on here? I would love to hear them. I don?t disagree that the IHSWCA needs to improve at all and would be interested to see your thoughts on it. I think that the ideas that Y2 listed are very good and need to be looked at again by the association. With this all being said I still think a lot of the blame falls on the coaches who don?t make the effort that is needed to join the association to help and make our group stronger and our sport better. We need more participation in the association, but what reason is there for a head coach in the state NOT to join the association? I mean just take the junior and senior academic all-state, you need to be a member to have a wrestler recognized for this. What coach, or athletic department could really feel that they are doing their kids justice if they don?t join to have their wrestlers recognized for this alone. The next issue is that the cost for a coach to join the association is probably free. I would bet that nearly all, if not every athletic director in the state would pay the dues for the coach to join the association. I mean really all you have to do is go in and tell the AD that you would like to join most will pay for it, seriously what AD would not pay for it if your wrestlers could be recognized for academic all-state, let alone the other programs that the IHSWCA offers. If the group is going to get stronger coaches need to start caring about the sport more. To be frank there are too many head coaches that apparently don?t care enough about the sport to help make it better.

Good point. The information about the last meeting was put on this site, and the information about dates and times that the IHSWCA meets can be found on the ihswca site as well as on handouts given out at the state coaches clinic. I would agree though that this is an area where the coaches association could get better and is attempting to. At the same time though it is not like they are hiding this information. A coach who wants a say could find this information, or could email the officers and I am sure they would provide them with a timely responce.

The next IHSWCA meeting is December 4th. They are open to anyone in the association not just officers and regional reps. I dont see where this idea that the IHSWCA is an "old boys club" comes from. If you are in the association and want a voice then go to the meetings. How is it an "old boysclub" if any member can attend most meetings. If you want a say than go to the meetings.

They problem comes with the question of whether or not the top teams would change their schedule to compete. Not whether or not the an event could be pulled of. The association could host an event easily, it is the question of whether or not the top teams would come. Personally I feel that they would have, others questioned didn't believe so.

Fair points, my only question is why would big schools not try to push to someday make the team state. They have the numbers (in terms of total student potulation) to compete with everyone, why not strive to get to that top level?

I would say that is pretty far off base. We did a survey last season asking the coaches what the best way to deside our team state champion was. I can not remember the exact number but somewhere between 75-80% responded that a classed team state dual was the best way to find a champ. That shows fairly obviously that most coaches in the state do at least feel that a dual team state championship is somewhat important. The idea of a "team" working to only get a few top guys better is what I thnk is off base in this topic. It may have been that way at one time, but I think a vast majority of coaches in the state work to grow the numbers in their program and work to get every kid better. Just working with a few instead of the whole team is about the worst possible way to help our sport grow that I can think of.

It is not what I want to have happen, but given the circumstances if we were to have a team tournament somethings would have t be lost in the process. I find a classed team state to be the most important issue that we as a state have. I think that it would do more to help wrestling than anything else that we could do. I do not know if others feel that it is as important as what I do. I do not know if they would be willing to change their schedules to make it work, that would be up to those schools and their coaches. It is the same as when any new invitational starts up, teams have to leave the other event that they were in. You guys are starting an invite at Garrett, I would have to assume that most of the teams in your invite had to drop something that they were previously invovled with, doesnt that hurt those events just as the team state would have? Do you feel bad about hurting the other current events that lost teams so that you could have an invite?

Do you really think that teams that are in the top ten in their class would really have that much trouble finding an event to get into on another date? I'm pretty sure that those teams could have either gotten into different events or started their own at different times in the season. If this event was really viewed as a championship then the schedules could be changed in a season or two. Again it depends on how the event was viewed, if the top teams wouldn't be willing to view it as a championship and change their schedules to go to it than the event would be doomed from the start. If they would have been willing to change and compete in the event it could have been very succseful.

Honestly I think that the IHSWCA could have put together an event that had eight teams from three classes in it. I have no doubt about that. The question to me is whether or not the best teams in the state would have gotten on board and did whatever was needed to be involved in the event. Would they be willing to change their schedules to fit it in? Would they view it as a legit team state event? If they would have done this then yes I believe that an invite team state would have been very attainable. If the top teams would not have been willing to change then the answer is no. It would be up to the coaches around the state to decide the importance of the event. The IHSWCA could have found the spaces and ran the event I have no doubt about that.

What if it was a three class tournament? Would small schools start to care then? I coach at a small school, and found the team state to be very important for our sport. A classed tournament would be a great showcase for all of our top teams.

I agree with you. I voted for the team state proposal. Im just letting everyone know the thought process behind the change so that there can be a bit more knowledgable discussion on the topic.

Having been at the meetings and seeing the debate on the board., I feel that the two are really headed in different directions. The first thing that needs to be known is that the undertaking of an all-in or qualifier (multi-night event) was something that was not being looked at. The size and undertaking of such an event was too much of a task and something that the IHSAA has a whole office to oversee, the IHSWCA lacks the personal to take on such a task, so any proposal that involves a qualifier of sorts is out of the picture. The same is true for any event at the end of the season as it would be against IHSAA bi-laws and something that would not be possible for that reason. The discussions that went on really hinged on a few things- 1. The size of the event. 2. The goal of the event. 3. Who participates in the event. 4. Location/ scheduling issues which seemed to be the main hang-up. If we break these down- 1. The size of the event. The Hall-of Fame classic was a much smaller undertaking than the proposed team state event. Fewer teams, fewer mats, fewer scheduling conflicts. The Hall-of -Fame classic would change dates and offer an alternative to teams having to drop events in order to participate. The Team State was contingent on the best teams being there, while the Hall-of- Fame is much safer as there will always be teams willing to wrestle in it as long as it did not interfere with their schedule. 2. The goal of the event. Is the goal of the event to crown a team state champion, or to be a fan friendly event that would showcase some of the top teams. Many in the room felt that the team state would turn into an event in which the same teams were invited year in and year out, and the Hall-of- Fame classic would offer an event where more teams would be able to participate because of the fact that you can only be invited every so many years. 3. Who participates in the event- This is a big one. In order to have the team state you need to have the best teams come to it. Would the best teams be willing to change their events around in order to participate? Know one knew for sure. If you look at that date there are a few big events, that several of the top schools already attend. There was no word about if the would be willing to change the dates on their events in order to come to the IHSWCA team state. I think that this knowledge would have made a huge difference in the vote. If the teams around the state were willing to leave the Jan. 5th date open for a chance to come to the team state event then it could have been pulled off., If not your really left with an event that just claims to be the team state, even though it would have been obvious that the top teams where not there making the event a farce. This is something that is still not know, would the Mater Dei, Perry Meridian, Bellmont, Yorktown, South Adams, Penn, Mishawaka, etc. of the world drop the events they were in to attend the team state? I still don?t think the answer is known and I don?t feel that the IHSWCA wanted to take the chance. Will these same top teams be willing to participate in the Hall-of-Fame classic on a rotating basis as well? Will a Hall-of -Fame classic be something that draws our top teams? Most of those in the room seemed to felt that the Hall-of -Fame option would let many teams participate, and would be something that the wrestling community would support. 4. Location/ Scheduling issues. The team state would have been a big endeavor where would it be held? Would it be one location? Several? The proposed event would have needed 12 mats, that is a lot of space. As far as scheduling goes it comes down to the earlier discussions, would teams be willing to leave their events to wrestle in the IHSWCA team state? In the end this is the question that I feel needs answered so the IHSWCA could have known if their team state would ?take? or if it would be something that would not truly be recognized as a team state champion. I feel that these areas would make for much more useful discussion than throwing out proposals for a team state event. These were the two that were going to be looked at and discussed. It was a close vote, and I think something that should still be discussed. I believe that a team state was a better option, many in the room did not. I?m simply presenting the arguments used for and against both sides.

If numbers are something that is good for wrestling then I think that team state is something that helped wrestling greatly. The top teams had to produce top programs not just individuals to compete at that top level. They needed all 14 guys to be tough every year not just 4 or 5. Those top teams also needed to have top notch JV kids to fill in the graduating kids spots so that they could stay on top year after year. So getting and keeping kids out for these teams would cause their numbers to grow. The teams that where behind these teams in turn had to produce better teams in an attempt to catch the team in front of them. Unless of course you just give up on the idea that your team/ program can ever get any better, in that case I guess that is your choice.

They would and should celebrate it. That doesn't mean that it isn't a flawed system that gives a chance for a team that isn't the best to win a championship for the best team. You don't play a 2 on 2 tournament to decide the best NBA team. Just because a team is happy to win it doesn't mean it isn't a flawed system.

Is it really better to just crown a team champion when they are not the best team? Just because you win something do to what really is a flawed system does it really mean anything? If you get beat during the season in a dual and win the state title because of a flawed system does it really mean that much?

Actually I am just trying to add to the prestige of the New Haven Sectional. In all seriousness how many other regionals in the state have one sectional with eleven teams, and the other with eight? Don?t you think this is something that the IHSAA could easily change but for whatever reason hasn?t?

I figured that most of them do have coaches, do you know who it is at Bluffton?