casualwrestlingfan

I just lump Lake,Porter, and La Porte into the region category. Probably angers all of them but oh well. No reason to ever want to visit there or Chicago.

Could they televise these duals in the future? I know the pool and semi finals would be impossible. Would there be a way to stagger the championship rounds to broadcast it? Would the IHSAA have to approve this as well? The more I type the bigger headache it seems to be. However, I think it would be another avenue to grow the sport.

The key factor is having someone with experience and credentials in the program. Look at AC. Barry Humble started the program and then his successful wrestlers became coaches. Their wrestlers became coaches. Same with AJ Kalvert and Bellmont. One person has to lay the foundation against odds and get parents and community to slowly buy in.

Milan won state 60+ years ago...the reality is, Milan isn't winning a state title in a single class wrestling state.

 

The reality it, it is EXTREMELY difficult for a kid from a 1A school(bottom 100ish teams) to win a state title. 

 

Waiting for a Milan type kid isn't a good reason to keep our flawed system. You'll still have underdogs in a classed system to root for.

True but I think kids still want to be the best of the best which single class answers. I'd like to see classed wrestling grow the sport. What would single class in addition hurt? Basically a battle of champions that would bring enthusiasm in another way. Like I said, I realize this is wanting my cake and eating it too by supporting both sides.

Parkway elementary kids have been coming to the elementary rival league nights that we have going on between Adams, Wells, and Jay counties.

Good deal. Maybe we can get it at MS/HS levels. Van Wert county needs to grow the sport as Mercer seems to have done a bit.

So tell me, you see a kid from your area at the grocery store that just placed at state in a small division. Do you spit on him and throw some tomatoes at him? Or do you shake his hand and tell him congratulations and you enjoyed watching him at state?

In the grand scheme of things he won't care because his school, team, family, and friends will celebrate his accomplishments. He won't need your justification for his accomplishments.

Carmel has more state champions than the smallest school has state qualifiers.

Well since I'm proposing classed and single class I'd congratulate him. Replying to the point as to why Florida dropped it because a champion isn't "the" champion. Heck I'd be happy to be a "glorified Al Smith" kind of champion and not a Ihsaa champion. Single class will bring back the traditional team rivalries while still giving a Milan vs Muncie Central equivalent. Classed gives more teams a chance to build a tradition. The best case scenario is a small school winning Class 1A team dual state, have multiple class 1A individual champions earning the 1A individual team points championship. Then going into the single class tournament team duals and knocking off the traditional powers. Also taking multiple individuals and placing them at single class state. Hopefully 1 or more champions there and maybe earning enough points to place in the top teams or shock the world and win the individual team points in the state.

Why do 42 states have class wrestling would be an easier one to answer. Why would Wyoming with 47 schools have a classed system and since 1974? Why does Idaho with 98 schools have classed wrestling since 1963?

 

 

 

Florida actually tried this a few years ago and it had a solid financial backing, but I'm not sure it lasted past a year or two. There is a reason this doesn't work, much like it didn't for basketball. One week you tell a kid/team they are a state champion, but the next week you say "well you're not really a state champion." 

 

 

 

But size of state shouldn't matter, much like Mater Dei proves the size of the school doesn't matter.

 

 

Just a question on your stats... Is MD considered 3A?

Yes, for two reasons. The first they bump up to 3A for the team state duals and secondly they are an EXTREME anamoly. 

 

If class system happens, does the school still get to bump there wrestlers up to the bigger class if they want too. 

In Indiana a team can bump up a class in the classed sports. 

 

I would say class system is not rewarding to the wrestler because of the fact that being the best in your class is not the same as saying the best in your state.

Not rewarding? So the kids in the 42 states with classed wrestling don't have a rewarding experience in wrestling? I find that absurd.

 

I understand the argument that bigger schools consistently produce more talent or state placers and state champs.

That isn't an argument, that is a fact as proven by data.

 

However, as a big fan of Indiana Wrestling, what I love about it is the single class.Wrestling is essentially an individual sport which makes it the best sport because there's no one else to blame when you are out on the mat. It teaches a wrestler many things.

That is the same in a classed or non-classed state. Wrestling doesn't change in a classed state. 

 

I also believe in the life lesson it teaches of don't make excuses and adapt and overcome if you want to be the best. 

See above, this won't change in a classed system.

 

This means, don't blame that just because your from a smaller school means you can't be as good of a wrestler as someone from a bigger school.

No one is blaming, we are here to grow the sport. We want more kids with a "rewarding experience." More kids with a rewarding experience will grow the sport at all levels.

 

That's an insane idea.

Not in 42 other states

 

Big schools have more talent because they have more kids attending and more opportunities of getting talent at their school.

So thus you are for classed wrestling.

 

There is no disadvantage though to a wrestler from a smaller school when he steps out on the mat with a wrestler from a bigger school.

I beg to differ. Number and quality of practice partners, less multi-sport athletes, and more and higher quality coaches make a huge difference. 

 

You can argue team mates to practice with. Well those team mates are now sitting in the stands watching and can't help the individual.

You don't think teammates help? Really? Really? You don't think the kid with better practice partners won't be better prepared for the match?

 

A wrestler can be as good as HE/SHE wants to be. I just feel that if the system is classed, it takes a lot of the validity of being the best in the state away.

Validity? You mean like it takes away from being a state champion in football or even our recently crowned champs? I see that Bellmont is ordering rings, sure sounds like validity to me.

 

I also feel that the size of the school is not a direct indicator to the talent level of wrestling at that school.

The statistics show otherwise. I'll give you the same bet I did Sammy. You get 1000 wrestlers of your choosing from 1A level, I'll take 50 from the 3A level. Whoever gets the most state qualifiers win. I'll even throw in some IndianaMat gear if you win.

 

The talent level of wrestling is directly affected by the hardwork and dedication put in by the coaches and by the INDIVIDUALS of the program.

Then why do small schools struggle? Are you trying to tell me the small school athletes don't work hard or aren't dedicated?

 

Also, the benefit of a one-class system for smaller schools is there is regionals and semi-state and other accomplishments you can make it too and feel rewarded about for accomplishing.

So a small school should celebrate having a regional champion like others celebrate having a state champion. Sounds nice.

 

I would rather say I wrestled with all the talent and lost in the ticket round than I won state but class 1A and I'll never have the chance or shot to prove my ability and see how I would do in the bigger classes. 

Actually your school would have celebrated your championship. You would have a big mural on the wall and get a big fancy ring. Being a semi-state qualifier gets you a pat on the back. There is a difference.

 

I'll leave you with a quote from a guy that coached in Indiana and then went off to Arizona and coached. He was NOT a fan of classed wrestling, but he stated it perfectly when he said "when you win a state title you win a state title." There was little to no difference having a kid win a title in Indiana or Arizona.

Yeah I get that point. Guess I would think being a 1A/2A/3A individual champion being a glorified Al Smith champion. Still a champion though and that can be crucial to new wrestlers wanting to join. Single class being the champion of champions. Also it was interesting AJ did come back with that answer.

I'm at pretty sure Parkway just started a program last year

Awesome. Maybe they'll cross the state line and wrestle with their Adams and Jay County neighbors.

Wonder how good Van Wert is. I live on the state line and the Ohio schools are just getting into it in this neck of the woods. I'm not sure if Crestview or Lincolnview even offer it. Not sure about Parkway either.

How many states have this kind of setup? How many have tried and succeeded?

Not sure but probably none. The schedule makes it almost impossible but it's something I'd love to see try and happen. Then again I also like to see freestyle and Greco-Roman become high school sponsored. Also have that crazy notion of making a style that encompasses all 3 styles in 3 different periods as well. I can dream can't I?

Why can't I have my cake and eat it? Oh yeah I'm cutting weight! For the millionth time I'll say I want both classed and single class team state duals and individual tournaments. Best of both worlds. Keep the traditions with single class and saying you're the best overall. Have classed and give smaller schools and individuals with less resources to compete and grow the sport.

Which Southern team won over the weekend?

Beat me to it. I'm sure they'll claim Brownsburg because it's around the Indy area. The way I see it, 2 Northern schools and 1 central school.

Maybe we should have bought a winning Power ball ticket and then build our own facility where we can then charge other sports to use it. Thinking 600'x600' (360,000 sq ft) floor space should cover it.

It is a very humbling experience even for reserved and quiet kids like I was. I wrestled at a young age and then lacked support to keep me in the sport. I was encouraged my senior year to come out and help fill a spot. I knew I was in for a battle and some lumps. Until you get out on the mat in front of a packed home crowd in what was predicted and actually was a tight dual, and get stuck, do you really know failure and disappointment. We came back and won the dual and I eventually improved but wasn't a good wrestler in the least. The biggest thing I felt was that I probably let down my teammates and was starting on the wrong foot. My teammates encouraged me and help me improve after that dual and helped me see everyone gets humbled whether they are 1st timers or state qualifiers.

A couple of quick thoughts.

1. An all in IHSWCA classed individual tourney would be nearly impossible given how scheduling works.

2. I don't believe that the IHSWCA should or would push for classing the individual tournament given that any time polling has been conducted on the subject a majority of the coaches have responded that they prefer to have a one class individual tournament. There is a very vocal minority that would like to see a classed tournament, but a majority of the state is still against it.

Agree on the schedule being hard. I was saying to have both classed and single class individual tournaments. The classed being like the Al Smith kind of tournaments. As you said, I doubt it would be popular in discussing. However it might help grow the sport in smaller schools like ours. Maybe not but who knows.

The IHSAA gave the IHSWCA their blessing for us to run the Classed Team State Duals four years ago. Actually, anyone could run a "classed", local tournament if they wanted to, but we, the IHSWCA, felt like it was better to ask the IHSAA permission since running a championship type event could have been perceived as stepping on their toes (since the dropping of the IHSAA single class team state duals event was such a hot topic at that time).

 

Having said all of that, the IHSWCA would not have the authority to run a "post season" classed tournament. That is the IHSAA's territory.

 

Despite some scheduling and facility challenges, we have the best situation that we could have right now in hosting a mid-season classed team state duals event.

Well said... and nicely supported with documentation and solid rationale.  I second this motion.

 

With respect to KarlHungus's question to me...  I said "doubtful" simply because the IHSAA has traditionally and steadfastly said they will not class any "individual" sports.  The IHSWCA doesn't have any type of hidden agenda to "keep" the Team State Duals or "let go" of the team state duals to the IHSAA.  We simply feel that it feels an important niche in Indiana's wrestling community AND it's the right thing to do.  In my dealing with the IHSAA over the years they have made it very clear that their individually classified sports will not be classed.  (** you never know though... strange things sometimes happen... maybe 2016 will bring signs of change.)

Will or has the IHSWCA discussed creating its own classed individual tournament separate from the IHSAA single class individual tournament? I'm guessing scheduling is a major issue here. Would it be possible that Al Smith and other tournaments could function in it or be used for seeding and/or qualification into such a tournament?

I'd like to see both classed and single class individual tournaments and same for team duals. The schedule doesn't really let this. Just curious as to why other sports like the round ball goes on a month longer than wrestling and why we couldn't extend the season to maybe accomplish this.

Just some thoughts after reading all of the above:

 

1.  Don't keep increasing the number of teams......how many teams do we need there to really determine the State Champion in each class?

 

2.  Maybe do not fixate on having it all in one spot all day long.  How about starting the competition in each class at separate High Schools with good sized gyms with decent views and then bringing the Final two or four teams to one central High School for the Finals.  That way the fans from specific teams can follow their team while the "wrestling fan" can see all o fthe best teams in action when they move to the Finals location.  In the metro Indy area there has to be the potential for this, and I am sure this would be possible at other places as well.

I'm kind of torn on this. I do like seeing all 3 classes, but not as much as following my team and any of the immediately surrounding schools. With that said, I'd be for an atmosphere where the gym is packed for a dual just for a couple teams. I remember when we hosted at AC for the old team state regional. I know Bellmont, Yorktown, and New Haven were there and I think Whitko. Everyone was there for Bellmont and Yorktown to meet in the finals which occurred. At the time Yorktown was knocking on the door to overtake Bellmont. Atmosphere was electric. Bellmont won in the final 2 matches.

Does anyone know how the proposed downtown Ft Wayne arena would work? Not sure what size they're thinking if it even passes to be brought into fruition.

Yes but that would mean more schedule points teams would have to use, events teams would have to drop in and out of from year to year, and gymnasium time ADs would have to fit in that may change each year. So unless we have some IHSAA backing to help with these items that option doesn't looks as feasible.

That's what I wondered. Hopefully we can get to that point in the near future and get the IHSAA ' S attention.

Any way where you change the qualification and make it similar to the football playoffs and have a round or two to qualify for state based more on team dual success? Those rounds hosted by schools and then have the top 8 or or so teams in each class earn a state trip by dual results?

It was a disaster no doubt. No upper level seating was a huge mistake. I get that the arena cannot hold 12 mats and that the Mad Ants were playing. Was also surprised they didn't have teams and scoring in the middle as mentioned above. It should have been no surprise that more people would attend in Ft Wayne than Muncie. It is closer for the northern schools without a doubt. AC and Bellmont fans definitely will bring a large following at both venues but probably more at the Coliseum. Hate to say we should subtract the number of teams, but I'd like an 8 team per class format. Where you have 2 pools of 4 teams as it would be easier record wise to place teams instead of using 1-1 records and criteria.

I believe Jarred Brooks was out of the Merrillville Semi-State as Warsaw has been through that Semi-State for a while.

 

Nvm it is Merrillville. That seems a bit crazy but I learned something.

It would be cool to have a 2 day event possibly. Not sure that would be possible though.