Rookies03

wrestlebacks could be started after the second rd of ss (just like it is now for determining 5/6) It would add very little time (maybe an extra hour?) to the day.

The post I was responding to said full wrestlebacks but my point was it adding fans. Since it wouldn't add any wrestlers to the SS I don't see how it would add any fans in general but if the building is pretty empty at 7:30 what would it be like at 8:30?? You can argue that wrestlebacks are good for the kids sake but don't argue that it will increase fans. Bottom line is that full wrestlebacks aren't going to happen.

I would tell you stevens103 its not just about the champion. As a wrestling fan i would like to know the top 16 wrestlers in each wieght class in specific order, 1-2-3-4=5-etc. when the state tournament is over,based on on how they wrestled , not by thier draw. I understand there are difficultys in full wreste backs in the whole state tourney, sec.,reg. s.s. but i think we could figure it out.  Two day 16 man sec. and reg. brackets with full wrestle backs. It wont take away from the sport it will draw fans in. gauranteed.

At the Evansville SS the stands were nearly empty during the HWT final. Not sure how adding hours of wrestling is gonna increase fans. Full wrestlebacks at SS will never happen because it would require Friday night wrestling and paying officials more money. 2 things the ihsaa isn't willing to do.

I apologize I left out the word wrestlebacks...honest mistake your view on class wrestling does not bother me

 

So we shouldnt have full wrestlebacks? Of course people will always find a way to complain but we do this with every other wrestling tournament why is this one any different? Full wrestle backs to third at all levels is what we want its pretty clear anyone who claims that the 5th place kid at a sectional is a crazy person. there will always be outliers but we have to do whats best for a majority of the cases.

Counter points:

 

1. Theres a big difference between a weight class and a school classification by size.  If football players are classified as positions like QB and lineman, but they still have classes.  I don't understand your point.

 

2.  Everybody  understands all semi-states are not equal and it is impossible to get the top 16 wrestlers to the state.  But then is it ok not to get the four best wrestlers out of the semi-state.  Lets not bring the 1, 2 and 4th and 6th wrestlers to state as what commonly happens now.  Thats something you can control,  lets get it right up to that point.  Note California has a gigantic one class tournament, and they've found a way for wrestlebacks.

 

3.  Yea Friday night matches are exciting.  Consolation finals ticket round would be just as exciting.  I've been to 5 other state tournaments, and everybody loves the ticket round which is consolation finals everyhwere else.

 

4.  No wrestlebacks at sectionals-  Lets take something away we do right.  So you really think the seeding process is accurate.  You alway have the kid with good record and weak schedule getting the better seed than (tough schedule/average record).

 

5. Only 3 come out of regional-  Then only 12 wrestlers go to semi-state and  four guys get byes.  Lets cut more wrestling out of our tournament.

 

6.  Wreslebacks after first round- Lets get consistent and run a full tournament.

 

 

I been involved in wrestling in a few different states,  I've never heard or have seen on a board  the argument to eliminate wrestle backs.

It looks like you are full wrestlebacks or nothing.  That will not make changes.  While it seems simple to just go to full wrestlebacks there are lots of things to consider.  Longer tournamnets, more pay to officials and mat help, possbly a rule change to allow 6 matches in a day. 

My suggestion is a reasonable solution to getting wrestlebacks that matter (at Regional and from the quarterfinals matches on at SS).  If you want to do full wrestlebacks at SS you would have to start Friday night.  Thats potentially a lot of hotel costs to schools and officials.  You will struggle to get the IHSAA agree to something that cost a significant amount more money to schools. 

And it was in the last 5 years that the IHSAA started advancing 4 out of the regional.  Only taking 3 wouldnt decrease the number of matches it would be the same as the current system (224 matches with take 4 no wrestlebacks, 224 matches taking 3 with wrestlebacks after round 2) and probably the most realistic way to get wrestlebacks into semistate considering adding full wrestlebacks would create 392 matches when the current format is 224 matches.

Like I said, I am not total against wrestlebacks but we have to consider that full wrestlebacks are not much of a possibility in the near future.

it sounds like you are in fact against aginst class wrestling as you seem to think it wouldnt be a good thing for the tournament...

Against class wrestling?? I do not support class wrestling in the individual tournament.  I do support what the IHSCWA is doing with the class team duals.

But my post was about wrestlebacks.  And at some level I am for them AND against them.  I like having them to "earn your way to state".  I am against them because I dont see an end in sight.  IHSAA gave partial wrestlebacks at the state (people still complain), IHSAA gave full wrestlebacks at the Sectional, IHSAA gave 4 coming out of Regional, IHSAA gave wrestlebacks to 5th and yet we still have long discussions about wrestlebacks (And these are changes just in the last 15 years).  If they do full wrestle backs after round 2 at state (to 3rd)... then people will want full wrestlebacks after round 1.... then wrestlebacks at SS after round 2...  then after round 1 of SS... then at the Regional.... then a cross Sectional bracket because some 5th place finisher could beat the 2, 3, 4 from another sectional. I can see the post now "An easy solution: the wednesday after Sectionals the 5th place finisher will be able challenge the 4th place wrestler from the other sectional for a shot to go to Regionals.  Come on IHSAA why are you living in the dark ages.  Give us what we want!" 

You are comparing apples to oranges. #1 it's classed, and wrestling is not. You already have an advantage there...

Chris Young

Last time I checked wrestling had weight classes so I think that balances out the whole classed thing.

Im not against wrestlebacks but where does it stop.  At some point there are always going to be unfortunate ticket round matches.  Like a few people have already said "what if the top 6-7 wrestlers in the state are all coming from the same SS".  Even with full wrestlebacks at the SS level people would complain that "well my wrestler is better than the wrestlers from that SS".  That being said this would be my solution:

Sectionals-No wrestlebacks.  Its a seeded tournament so wrestlers get a chance to improve their draw with a good season of wrestling.

Regionals-Full wrestlebacks but only take top 3.

Semi State-Wrestlebacks only after round 2 (Lose 1st round and your done).  Taking only 3 from Regionals would make wrestlebacks more feasible from a time standpoint and since there are full wrestlebacks at regional there shouldnt be an issue with only taking top 3.

State-Maintain current format.  Some of those Friday night matches are the most exciting (outside of championship matches) of the whole weekend.

Dont confuse years of experience with age.  Yes older officials tend to have more years of experience but there are some younger officials that have 10-15 years of experience and the new rating system will not prevent them from moving up.  When calling stalling experience is a key factor.  

Aside from that awood, I think your post is spot on.

Without seeing the actual move it would be hard to be sure about the right call (and probably why you have gotten two different opinions from 2 refs) because it doesnt sound like there is any pressure on the head or neck.  There are several situations where hands touch around the head without an arm and are not called illegal.  For example when the top man gets too high and bottom man reaches up to grab the head and pull him over the top.  Often this move results in the bottom mans hands being around the head without an arm.  Another is in the double grapevine.  Or in the neutral positon when a wrestler uses a clinch to snap down his opponent.   

The move you describe would not be locking hands unless the arms were around the body and remember touching hands is not locking hands.  They must overlap or interlock. 

Were A's coaches yelling "Get out of bounds!", "Get a fresh start!", "Look where you're at!", "Castle!", or anything like these that would make the official feel that the wrestler intentially went out of bounds?

I think when officials hear the coach yelling these things they use it as justification to make the fleeing call.  And yes I understand the rules states that both wrestlers have to make every attempt to stay in bounds but they are also required to continually try to score points.  There are some situations where either 1 or both wrestlers cant score on the edge of the mat and "getting a fresh start" actually helps both wrestlers. 

Several baseball programs have either gone away from Var, JV, Freshman and have A, B, C teams.  This allows more flexibility of having different grade levels on each team.  This usually happens when there are smaller numbers at the 9th grade class and it allows sophomores to play on the C team.  Other programs have gone to 4 teams because of the number of kids in the program. 

This obviously doesnt affect seeding in a tournament but its not just happening in Wrestling.

Shouldnt our focus be on more kids participating vs how a coach might manipulate a seeding meeting?

They stay at current weights....

Y2,

Can you reference the specific rule in the rule book or winter bulletin that says a wrestler may not drink during weigh-ins?

thanks,

I'm friends with both Fitch and Moore, but much better with Nate...however, Nate was much, much better than Fitch at Purdue.  Leaving him off this list doesn't make any sense at all.  He could bump up and beat people on the list. 

Nate Moore grad in 2001-2002 season and I only went back 10 years. No doubt Nate would be on this list if within the last decade.

I think he is trying to only use each wrestler once... since he has alex at 140, he can't be at 119.

Cool point for you my friend.

Yes was trying to use each wrestler only once.

BTW how about having J. Tsirtiss and A. Tsirtiss back to back in the lineup!!!  Wow

jake o'brien was a 3x state champ cmon now

I forgot about Jake O'Brien.  He was a beast.

Not really to sure about "close". No disrespect to Reece. But Cleveland was a "differant" athlete at that weight than I've seen in a long time. He didn't quite have the skills of Sliga, but he had that kind of athletasism on a much bigger frame. IMO Cleveland majors Reece.

I picked Reece based on a very dominate performance at State his Senior year.  No Doubt Cleveland was a monster but I just went with Reece because he obliterated the field.  Not sure either is a bad choice.

Dating back to 02'-03' Season:

103/106-Cody Phillips 9 Union County

112/113-Harper 10 Mish

119/120-Ayersman 11 Lake Central

125/126-Escobedo 10 Griffith

130/132-Wrestle off between Hernandez 11 Griffith and Humphrey 12 LN

135/138-Wrestle off between Irwin 12 Belmont and Jackson 12 Yorktown

140/145-Alex Tsirtiss 12

145/152-Lots of great names (Sandefer, Howe 10, Walpole, Pribble) but thanks to the wt class change its an easy decision Jason Tsirtiss 12

152/160-Another stacked wt class but Im taking McMurry 11 Portage

160/170-Howe 12 Hanover Central

171/182-Maurer 12 MD

189/195-Sliga 11 Fishers

215/220-Just going off of a very dominate performance at State Trey Reece 12 Indian Creek

HWT-Wrestle off between Larrimore 12 Merriville and Adams 12 PM

I might be missing a few but this lineup would be sick!!!

 

 

Yeah that only goes to 97. and it doesnt show whole bracket for 97.

Under Historical Information

Individual State Champions

This is an example from 2010-2011:

  2010-11

*Record does not include any matches in Team Wrestling State Finals.

Wt. Champion Gr. Record Runner-Up Gr. Record Result

103 Nathan Boston, Lawrence North 9 46-0 Josh Fuqua, Crown Point 9 41-2 13-3

112 Mason Todd, Pendleton Heights 11 32-0 Jarred Brooks, Warsaw 11 30-2 3-0

119 Kyle Ayersman, Lake Central 11 52-0 Brenden Campbell, New Castle 11 54-1 10-8 OT

125 Jared McKinley, Perry Meridian 11 53-1 Josh Kieffer, Roncalli 12 44-5 Fall 1:56

130  Neal Molloy, Danville 10 50-0 Collin Crume, Jimtown 12 49-5 8-1

135 Ethan Raley, Indian Creek 12 34-1 Devon Jackson, Yorktown 11 51-1 5-3

140  Jason Tsirtsis, Crown Point 11 42-0 Phelan Montgomery, Terre Haute South 12 41-1 15-5

145  Eric Roach, Crown Point 12 42-0 Renaldo Weekley, Jeffersonville 12 50-2 3-1

152  Doug Welch, Castle 12 50-1 Connor Mullins, New Castle 11 52-3 1-0

160  Chad Welch, Castle 12 51-0 John Sims, Evansville Mater Dei 12 21-6 3-0

171  Drake Stein, Princeton 12 46-0 Nicholas Manning, South Dearborn 12 33-1 4-1

189  Garret Goldman, Bloomington North 12 40-1 Aaron Stevenson, Indian Creek 12 41-1 2-1 OT

215  Trey Reese, Indian Creek 12 32-0 Logan Cooper, Perry Meridian 12 49-4 Fall 3:20

285  Jeremiah Harvey, Culver Community 12 45-4 Damon Howe, Plymouth 12 36-3 3-1 OT

 

Where did yo find these results?

www.ihsaa.org

Under Wrestling there is a link to year by year state finals results

I could only find complete results up to 79'-80' season but the closest any state finals comes to this year is 82'-83' with a combined 432-4.  Most years had at least 1 state champ with 3 or more losses let alone the entire class of state champs.  Hats off to this years field!

I don't think anyone can complain about stalling because kral was on the offense. Neither opponents showed offense against kral and that's how he wrestles. Do people expect to see singles and high crotchs at that weight? Lets be honest. Regardless congrats to tyler and gelen on there accomplishments.

There seem to be a lot of shot attempts and offense in the HWT final so one might not expect the Petrov/Campbell match at 220 but you would probably expect the action of the HWT match.

             WILL Hill ended up winning it I believe you might be referring to Vernon Cannon he got 2nd...hope that helps

I looked it up and it was DiAndre Hill of North Central.  He got beat by Pat Cassidy from Bloomington North in the 93'-94' season.  DiAndre's record after the finals was 19-5 so he could have dropped a wt class in the middle of the year but with 5 losses could have easily lost several matches during his run to 2nd place.  Does anyone have any info on his sectional, regional and semi state result?

I remember Will and Vernon.  Both went to Lawerence Central not North Central. 

I think I remember a kid from North Central finishing 2nd in sectional, regional, semi state and state but it was to a couple different wrestlers.  I think it was in the mid to early 90s.  Hill is the only name that comes to mind.  Does anyone else remember this?

you just beat me to it duncan wrestled well against lovejoy

If I remember correctly, Lovejoy got an early lead but got gassed and Duncan made a furious comeback.  I remember thinking if the match was 1 min longer he might have done it.  Not bad for a kid who wasnt suppose to wrestle.

2 years ago Seve Duncan from Beech Grove came in as an alternate and lost 17-11 on Friday night to Tony Lovejoy who finished 3rd. 

All the above mentioned Refs certainly deserve recognition because they do more than just officiate a good match.  Rules Interpreter, Mentor new officials, coordinate officials for youth and summer tournaments, etc. But to me the best refs are the ones that go unnoticed and most people wouldnt know their name to put in a thread like this. 

So to all the officials that put a ton of time and effort into this very grueling job and do it because they simply love wrestling... I thank you!

This is a very unfortunate situation but I dont see how anything can be done at this point.  I assume there was roughly an hour or so between Weigh-ins and Wrestling and that is about the only time anything could have been resolved.  

Several have said that this kind of thing has happen multiple times this year so I can only add for any future wrestler or coach that has this situation come up to ask the official if you can weigh-in at the end and have the weight recorded.  Then call the IHSAA or other officials to see if something can be resolved before wrestling starts.  Once wrestling starts it is really hard to correct the situation.