swain358

So why not for the team tournament? 

 

 

Just have your kids buy into working 365 days for wrestling, you only need 14 to do that and you'll win state.

If we ever win the team state tournament we will move up to the 3A tournament. You have that in writing. We cannot move up until we have proven that we can win the 2A tournament.

My guess is it would be very difficult to do that, plus I have never seen it done in other states. It would most likely have to be the whole team.

 

I'm sure Churubuso and North Montgomery would jump to the big class if we had class wrestling. No way would they want an easier path to take kids to a fake state championship.

You are probably right actually for the individual tournament.

You have said that you tell your kids that want to reach state, they should train 365 wrestling.  I think any high school sport that demands that much is bad for kids in general but especially bad for kids and programs at smaller schools

So are you saying that kids don't already know that the more you train at something the better the chances are that you will become better at that? So are you saying that as a coach of a small school, you lock your doors once your season ends? If not, then you are also promoting kids training outside of the wrestling season so apparently you seem to be doing the same thing? Are you also saying that big school coaches are bad coaches because they let their kids train most if not all year around and that they are forcing kids not to play other sports? I'm sure some of those big school state qualifiers would be great cross country runners. So are you on record saying big school coaches are hurting kids by letting them make a choice on wrestling year around? Would you like to see it become a state law/rule that every kid must participate in multiple sports if we plan on keeping our current system? Again I'm just asking these questions so I can fully understand how you feel about a coach letting a kid make a decision to train to reach his ultimate goal. And this is not geared only at small school kids since you stated that any kid training that much isn't good.

The specialization argument is great, but there are also things like practice partners, number of coaches and level of coaching, access to off-season activities, amongst other factors that play into it as well. Does Zac or Nick come closer to their goals if they have a couple state level kids to work with? Do they come closer to their goals if their head coach isn't off coaching football during the summer and fall?  These are all things that were limited at their schools and will affect their ability to reach their goals.

 

Forcing small school kids to choose one sport shouldn't be the answer. Heck South Adams got to state last year because of Sawyer Miller, he was also the 1A Cross Country runner of the year. Should he not run they probably don't get out of sectional.

 

Why have other states recognized these differences and chosen to class wrestling and Indiana is different? Are we ahead of the curve because of this? Should we continue to hurt small school athletics because of wrestling becoming more and more a specialized sport?

So Joe quote me where I said I force kids to choose one sport? I'm sure you can find may quotes where I have said my kids choose what they want to do.

Sawyer Miller is a great example of an incredible athlete that was able to do both sports. Out of curiosity, I would like to know which sport he trained the most during the spring and summer? I honestly don't know the answer and am not trying to imply anything. I would like to see his offseason regimate. And again 3 of our 5 semi state qualifiers were 2 sport athletes so it's possible for 2 sport athletes to get to that level as well.

Does not the IHSAA award a TEAM trophy?  They seem to think it is a TEAM sport too.  

 

 

 

Just curious as to why you think Iowa, Illinois, Pennsylvania and Ohio have it wrong and you have it right?

Not saying they are wrong or right. I'm saying I personally don't think we should make a change to accommodate your argument of kids not having a fair shot because they are unable to put in the time to reach that level. And I'm explaining to you how it is possible for small school kids or kids in general no matter what school they go to can get to that level in our system if they want. I guess we can agree to disagree.

I would argue that he would have had a great experience with his classmates playing football and his wrestling would not have suffered.  Whom did he train with during football season?

Borta went to CIA every day that it was available so he trained with the other kids that wanted to train in the fall. And trust me, Borta probably would not have had the success that he had if he would not have made the choice that he made. I coached him for 4 years and witnessed his development over the years so I think I am qualified to give my honest opinion on where he would have been without the extra training.

All kids have the choice, but small schools have different factors that influence whether a kid plays other sports. Again why is Zac McCray who likes football, plays at Garrett and most likely doesn't at Carroll?  If you understand the answer to that question you understand the difference between a big and small school.

 

If a kid has no interest in another sport he's going to specialize no matter the school. If he has any level of interest in another sport he will probably play at a small school, but still specialize at a big school.

 

Our single class system has done NOTHING for Andrew Howe or Stevan Micic. NOTHING, they got where they were because of other factors. Just as Logan Stieber was not affected by being at a small class in Ohio, the same goes for Howe and Micic.

 

Karlhungus

Actually Borta told the Head Football coach that he wanted to win a state title in wrestling and had no interest in playing football. He started out as a little guy and no other sport had interest in him until he blew up physically and blossomed into the physical kid that he became to be. Just like the rest of our kids, I told Borta to chase your dream and do whatever you want. Yes he probably could have helped another sport but that is not what he wanted to do, which is fine with me and should be fine with everyone.

Joe

Never did I say or imply that our system made Howe or Micic. I simply used them as an example to show you that small schools do have kids that want to only focus on wrestling and some have made that choice and obviously has seen success. They don't have as many (by choice) but small schools do have some. You implying that I said our system made Howe is again you assuming things.

My entire argument has been that small school kids can get to the state tournament/placer/champ level if they want to put their time into it.. Has absolutely nothing to do with numbers and percentages that you guys post. All the percentages show is that small school kids aren't CHOOSING to train at that level. Which is FINE. You think we need a tournament to accommodate the kids that can't/wont for whatever reason put in the time to be at that level, I personally do not think we need to create a new individual tournament for that reason. I know 40+ states think the same as you, that's awesome for them. Me personally, I do not think so.

As far as my schedule, from August to the end of the football season I do nothing with our high school wrestlers (most play a sport in the fall anyway). For those that don't play another sport, my assistants run weights and conditioning for them. My non fall sport kids also attend CIA in the fall. Once football is over I am strictly focused on wrestling until June. Once June hits, we have football (all fall sports program) lifting in the morning 7-830 then more football stuff until 10:30 am. Once I am done with football for the day, my wrestlers (all wrestlers including those that play fall sports) workout/drill/live etc. until 1pm, and this continues until August. It's a grueling schedule but we know it must be this way in order for our kids to get to the level that they want.

Any other questions on how we try to maximize our kids potential at a small school?

Again it's the dynamic of a small school. Zac McCray likes football, but loves wrestling. He's not forced to do anything, he wants to play football. Why does he skip out on football at Carroll, but not Garrett? Maybe it's the sense that he is NEEDED at Garrett. Their team suffers greatly if kids like him quit. The ATHLETIC PROGRAM overall suffers also. This is the dynamic of a small school that you fail to grasp. When good athletes specialize it is detrimental to the whole school. When good athletes specialize at Carroll you see little to no affect.

 

We shouldn't have a system in place that forces kids to specialize, especially at smaller schools where you need to SHARE athletes. Once you start having a few athletes start specializing it leads to more and more, then you have a small school with a horrible athletic program.

 

One more thing, why do you coach football? Wouldn't you be better off spending 365 days a year on wrestling? If you were at Anderson, Carroll, Perry Meridian would you be needed as a football coach?

And again, you guys aren't reading my post.. I gave you an example of a kid that does NOT want to play another sport. I just used Zac McCray's name because that's the name you gave. How about we change that name to Nick Borta, a kid that had no interest in any other sport and only wanted to wrestle. You do realize that that athlete also exist at small schools right? Andrew Howe, micic, just to name a few. So again, kids can play multiple sports and spend time training each sport equally which is fine.. But you guys seem to think that a kid that has no interest in another sport MUST play at a small school just to help the other sports.. If he has interest and wants to play that's perfectly fine with me.

So do we agree that small school athletes have the same choice as big school kids to play other sports and train equally in each sport, play multiple sports but train wrestling more than the other sport, or only wrestle and train wrestling with the majority of their time?

You seem to misunderstand the dynamics of small school athletics which baffles me since you are at a small school.  

 

What you fail to realize is that there are 50 Zac's roaming the halls at Carroll, the football team gets a few, the baseball team gets a few, wrestling gets a few, etc. At Garrett we had a couple of them...and if we wanted to be successful we had to share him. He's a one sport athlete at Carroll, he's a 2-3 sport athlete at Garrett. Add to that he gets three or four state level practice partners at Carroll versus one at Garrett. I'm sure that makes a difference also.

 

That in a nutshell is the difference between big and small schools, which you are the last person that I should be explaining that to.

You are still not answering my question though. Should Zac McCray at a small school be forced to play another sport if he does not want to?

I definitely understand the dynamics.. But I also understand that kids have a CHOICE to do WHATEVER they want no matter what school they are at? Sounds like you think kids should be FORCED to do things they may not want to do for the good of the school. That's where we disagree. I've always said that if a kid wants to play multiple sports I am ok with it. If a kid only wants to wrestle, I am ok with that? How can you not figure that out from my post?

So are big school kids that play multiple sports being punished as well? No they have the advantages such as more and higher quality practice partners, more coaches, etc.

 

Are big school coaches that allow their kids to choose to be only wrestlers being bad coaches? No

 

Are big school kids that see the writing on the wall that the kids having a ton of success are those that wrestle a lot in the offseason and decide to focus on wrestling being led in the wrong direction? No

 

So a kid that is marginal at whatever other sport but a very good wrestler decides that he really wants to make a run at a state title and wants to focus all of his time on wrestling you would deter him from making that decision if that's truly his decision and his parents support his decision? I won't deter him, but make sure he isn't letting the team down. If Zac McCray said he was going to quit football then that would have let the football team down. If a kid is 12th string and not getting playing time or doesn't like the sport then that is his choice. Of our top two kids 7 played another sport this year...compare that to 23 for your team. That is a big difference.

 

You would tell that kid he should do the other sport even if he does not want to because it gets in the way of his true passion goal? No

 

You are failing to see the difference in big and small schools. Your football team needs the wrestlers, if a handful of your wrestlers say they are quitting football to just wrestle it will have a major affect on the football team. At Carroll if a few kids(even starters) decide to quit football it has an affect, but not the same as at a 2A school. Of ou

 

So you are saying that school size matters then right? Because if you are then that is the reason we have chosen to class athletics

 

 

The kids will start at a younger age and they will also choose wrestling over the other sports during the off-season. I would venture to say state qualifiers do more in the offseason than semi-state qualifiers, and semi-state qualifiers put more time in the offseason than regional qualifiers, and so on. Would you not agree?

So you are saying that school size matters then right? Because if you are then that is the reason we have chosen to class athletics.

So are you saying that the stud wrestler/ good football that really wants to reach his ultimate goal of being a state champion and wants to make the decision to focus only on wrestling in order to do something for HIMSELF that means ALOT to him, that kid has to sacrifice the time he could spend working hard to achieve his dream of getting a state wrestling title to instead spend his time playing football so he doesn't let down his team? And just because he is from a small school?

That is the message I am getting from your example of Zach McCray.

So kids at small schools should be forced to do all sports even if they do not want to? Is that what you are saying?

I understand why kids doing other sports at small schools are important. I live that life everyday, but what I do not agree with is making a kid put his goal on hold for another sport if that's not what he wants to do. That seems to be what you are implying.

I will never tell a kid to quit another sport, never have and never will. If a kid asks me if he should quit football to become a better wrestler I will say no. I had a freshman this year that was debating on whether to play football or not. I asked him why he wanted to play football and he said to be with his friends. I asked if he was planning on playing as a sophomore, he said probably not. I told him if he wants to play football it should be because he likes to hit people, loves the coaches, likes the games, etc. I told him I don't want a wrestler that is here to hang out with friends and the football coach probably feels the same way.

 

 

You're right it's a kid's choice. The way I'm reading it is you're telling Johnny Regional Qualifier that "well you see you only put 150 days of work into wrestling and this is what it got you. If you'd quit football you'd get 300 days and be a state qualifier." You're most likely not saying that exactly, but that is what the kid is hearing.

 

 

I don't disagree with your statement that you should put in 300 days of work to be a state qualifier. However, I disagree with you in that we shouldn't punish kids from small schools that have disadvantages from enjoying success in the sport. The end all is kids from small schools shouldn't be punished for being multi-sport athletes.

 

I tell kids to make their own decision and to not let anyone deter you from your life goals. If a kid has a goal to be a state level kid and CHOOSES to take advantage of every wrestling opportunity as possible that's his choice not anyone elses. Kids are smart enough to figure out the obvious on their own (more wrestling=more success) so as a coach, I do not have to tell kids that. Again, we had 27 kids on our team.. 23 are multi sport athletes so I do not see where you come to the conclusion that I tell kids not to do other sports. Of our 5 semi-state qualifiers, 3 were multi sport kids. Our kids that play 2 sports and really want to excel at wrestling train wrestling during their off season (either fall or spring). They aren't forced they CHOOSE to.

So are big school kids that play multiple sports being punished as well? Are big school coaches that allow their kids to choose to be only wrestlers being bad coaches? Are big school kids that see the writing on the wall that the kids having a ton of success are those that wrestle a lot in the offseason and decide to focus on wrestling being led in the wrong direction? So a kid that is marginal at whatever other sport but a very good wrestler decides that he really wants to make a run at a state title and wants to focus all of his time on wrestling you would deter him from making that decision if that's truly his decision and his parents support his decision? You would tell that kid he should do the other sport even if he does not want to because it gets in the way of his true passion goal? That is what I am getting from your post.

I am asking these questions because I want to make sure I am understanding you completely on this topic.

I read your post fine, you tell your kids if you want to be a state qualifier don't do any other sports. 

 

Would you have no problem with your all-conference linebacker and maybe two-way starter to come up to you this week and tell you he's quitting football to be a state qualifier in wrestling? Of if he did the opposite and quit wrestling to focus solely on football.

 

I read where Kaine Luginbill played football and Sawyer Miller was a state qualifier in cross country. These kids at the 1A level that qualify for state are great athletes and work hard with limited resources like coaching, practice partners, scheduling, etc. It should be more than just the very elite of these kids that get recognized for their hard work and sacrifices they make.

 

We aren't doing the sport, nor the kids any favors when we must tell a kid he needs to specialize or he's not going to state. Your kids that do multiple sports work hard, they make sacrifices, just as the ones that wrestle year round. Should this sport only be about year round wrestlers?

So are you saying that if one of your multi sport athlete really wants to focus on getting to the next level and he tells you that he does not plan on playing whatever his 2nd or 3rd sport is you will force him to play the other sport? You will push him out the door and forbid him from coming to your offseason practices? Fact is kids will do what they want to do. As coaches we should not make kids do anything that they do not want to do. So if a kid on my team is a very talented football player and wants to focus on that, I cannot and will not make him wrestle or even be mad at him for wanting to choose that path. It's the kids choice. Of our 5 semi state qualifiers this year 3 play other sports as well so obviously I do not make kids wrestle all year and it is possible to get to that level playing another sport but again, the more wrestling you do the greater you increase your wrestling abilities and chances to get to that level.

There is more to it than an "easier" state tournament as you want to put it. Wouldn't it be an easier state tournament if we added 56 more state qualifiers? 

 

Small school kids and coaches work hard, the coaches and kids also coach multiple sports. If you want to encourage your team of 25 kids to only wrestle all year you aren't going to last long at a small school. Either you'll be run out of town by the other coaches or you'll leave when you only have 4 kids on the team. You fail to see this and realize this sport isn't growing, especially at the small school level.

 

The question is do you care about this sport beyond the top tier kids. Giving more recognition to the hard working kids of the state won't hurt anyone and it can in turn GROW the sport.

Obviously you did not read my entire post or you only choose to take part of my quote. I said that my kids make the CHOICE to wrestle in the off season because THEY want to be at a State Qualifier level. Nowhere in my post did I say that I MAKE kids wrestle all year. For the record 4 of my 27 kids are one sport athletes (only wrestling) which is fine with me. The others play another sport and some play two other sports which is fine with me as well. I also coach Football as well. So you have no idea what you are talking about when referencing my school and team.

Fact is, according to Karlhungus and you, you would like an easier tournament to accommodate kids that play other sports or for whatever reason can't put in enough time to get to the state level. I am ok with your opinion. My opinion is that it's possible for small school kids to compete at the state level they just have to make some of the same sacrifices that those of big schools are making or what other state qualifiers are making. And I can only speak for at my school, the sport of wrestling has grown over the past 3-4 years. Hopefully it continues.

Exactly, glad we are on the same page. Let's give LESS recognition to kids in the sport instead of more! Only exemplary kids should get recognition and no one else. Heck, I think we should limit our state tournament to ONLY those kids putting in 300+ days a year of work into wrestling and wrestling only!

 

On top of that, less weight classes so that we don't water it down with kids that might get away with being good based on size alone. I'm saying like four weights with only 4 state qualifiers each.

 

That will make our sport better and will increase numbers at all schools. Coaches and kids will work harder to achieve these dreams and goals.

I gave you my opinion. You guys routinely rip people who say "kids that don't qualify for state are not working hard enough" and then you guys normally claim that small school kids work as hard if not even harder. Then karlhungus just said that the same thing (small school kids don't work as hard at wrestling as big school kids). I don't get it. If you want an easier tournament then come out and say it and I will respect your opinion. My opinion is that I like the tournament as it is and gave you guys examples of things that we are trying to do at a small school to enhance our chances of going to state. If other small or big school kids do not want to wrestle in off season as much as possible or needed to get to that state qualifier level then that is their choice. Those that do want to be at that level will. End of story.

But wouldn't that be watering down our state tournament by letting undeserving kids that don't work hard or dedicate 300+ days a year to wrestling into the state finals?

 

I think that we should allow less kids into the state finals, because I want to make sure none of those lowsy lazy kids make it with a good draw.

Then why were there only 19 1A schools represented at state, while there were 60 3A schools. Are the coaches at 1A schools just not building programs the right way?

You are right Y2.. Now that I reassess that idea I think we should just stay with 16 or down to 8 or 4 or 2..

I would be in favor of sending 20-24 kids to the state tournament though. Rewarding some of those kids that are right in that state placer/qualifier level that gets a bad draw or come from a loaded semi state etc. Take the top 5 from each semi state. If you place 5th at semi state you wrestle a pigtail match with a 4th place finisher for the chance to wrestle a semi state champ. That would make 4 extra matches per weight class at state if I'm not mistaken. State tournament would need to start 2 hours earlier in order to wrestle this round, then run everything else like normal.

Just an idea I've been bouncing around with my assistant coaches lately.

Yes.  This is not to say they don't work hard.  But a much higher percentage are working at 1 or 2 other sports and are unable to go 365 at wrestling.  Other states have recognized this and classed all their sports.

So you are saying that you would like to see a new state tournament that rewards kids that cannot work as hard (for whatever reason multiple sports, not as interested in wrestling so no off season work, etc.)?

I personally wouldn't want to change the state tournament for the reason you stated above. My answer to the solution would be to wrestle more if you want to be at that level. Make the sacrifice of another sport if being a state qualifier, placer, champion is what ur ultimate goal is. I by no means make my athletes choose to wrestle 300+ days but most know if you want to be at that level, wrestling and training a lot more than just during the season is what you have to do. And again, some choose to and some choose not to which is fine because it's their choice. Those that choose to wrestle and train 300+ days a year will greatly increase their chance of reaching that goal.. Simple as that.

This is why the current state tournament is flawed.  Larger enrollments naturally give you more kids that will adopt the specialization mindset.  Other states have come to the logical conclusion that it is best for ALL sports to class because of this.

So are you saying small school kids don't work as hard at becoming a state level wrestler in our current system as big school kids?

Thank you, I didn't realize North Montgomery was that size.  Have you ever taught at a large school?

I did not teach at Anderson Highlang High School I only coached there (was in college finishing up my degree). I attended and wrestled at Anderson High school. I think I have a good idea of how things go at a big high school as well.

Have you ever taught or coached at a small school?

I teach and coach at North Montgomery High School 611kids I think....

Here are last year's qualifiers broken down by 145 and below and 152 and above

 

145 and below 152 and above

1A 13 30

2A 99 82

 

1A 8 13

2A 29 33

3A 75 66

 

Small schools pretty much double their qualifiers at 152lbs and above

 

The reason small schools don't succeed as much at the lower weights is probably because of

1. Lack of practice partners

2. Big school kids 145 and below are mainly one sport athletes, while small school kids play other sports, especially if they are good athletes.

3. Proximity to good off season training

1. Lack of practice partners

-In my opinion as you build your program the partners will become better. Early on in the development of the program at a small school the numbers/practice partners may not be as good but eventually they can become better.

2. Big school kids 145 and below are mainly 1sport athletes.

-Small school kids have the same option of being a 1 sport athlete as well. Most just choose not to which is fine but they are making that choice in sacrifice of getting more hours in the wrestling room or academies which will help develop their wrestling to hopefully state level.

3. Proximity to good off season training

-If you want it bad enough you will get in your car, car pool, coach take mini bus, or do whatever it takes to get to places you need to develop your wrestling. CIA is approximately 75-90 minutes away from our school in my first year we had one kid attend CIA all spring and summer. After that kid had a ton of success the following season, we've steadily grown to 8-10 going to CIA every year. There were years where we would load up in the mini bus after school on Mondays and make the drive to Cathedral high school during rush hour traffic. Now we have kids that drive and are able to take their buddies. So if being on that state level is important enough you will find a way to get to the practices you need to be at.

Are we the best team in the state? No.. Are we producing 5-6 qualifiers per year? No... (Last year I think we had 4-5 kids not qualify that had legitimate chances but it was not in the cards for them.. This year I think we had 3-4 kids that were legitimate state qualifier level kids as well but again it was not in the cards for them). I guess I just feel like it's possible to get to that level no matter your school size. It takes commitment outside of the season (as much as possible, 300+ days a year), commitment from parents, and a major commitment from coaching staff from elementary up through high school. And I am not saying that small school teams that don't have state qualifiers every year aren't committed but I am saying if you aren't on state qualifier level because you play 2 other sports and don't have the time to wrestle more then that's your choice.

It is simple if you have a staff and kids that can give 300+ days a year.  This not realistic for most small school staffs or kids.  That is why the question was relevant.

In my opinion, this is the main reason why kids from small schools have trouble qualifying, placing, and winning state titles. Especially those kids in weight classes 160 and below. I have had the experience of coaching at what would be considered a big school (Anderson Highland) and a smal school (North Montgomery). Small school kids(106-160) have more opportunities to compete at the varsity level in other sports since the population of athletes at their schools are much lower. If possible, I would like to see the breakdown of state qualifiers, placers, and champs (106-160) that are also varsity athletes in other sports.

I'm personally not in favor of classing the individual tournament. I tell my wrestlers "If your goal is to compete at the level of state qualifier, placer, champion, you need to train at that level 365 days a year and for as many years as possible". We have some guys that buy into that mindset and training and we have some that don't.

84x42.. We fit 2 full mats perfectly in our room. We average 25-30 kids per year and 2 mats seem like the perfect size.

North Montgomery High School

Add Elwood and Columbus North and that's the complete list. We are actually looking for one more team for next year so we can have the team duals tournament on day one and the individual 12 man bracket tournament for day two. We already have one other team (western) contracted in for next year. Need one more to make 12. If anyone is interested, contact me via personal message or email mswain@nm.k12.in.us

Maurice Swain

North Montgomery