MattM

No such thing at team semi-state anymore.  They finish up both rounds of the team competition to decide to goes to state on the same night.  So they can always bump back team regionals to sometime next week (which may be the case now) and finished up individual sectionals before this weekend.  That gets everything back on tracks and would just slightly effect those participating in this particular team regional.  I guess we will find out later today what will actually occur.  At this point they may still try to have the South Dearborn sectional late this evening as scheduled unless we get another round of snow today.

As of right now (and previously mentioned) the SD sectional final rounds will be on Wednesday night and team regionals will be held on Thursday.  If the weather becomes a major problem again  preventing several teams from attending on Wednesday then they will have to change plans for both individual sectional and team regional again.

Northview Results

http://www.ihsaa.org/b-wrestling/2008-09/0809NorthviewSectional.pdf

Columbus North at Jennings County

I think its not so much the state qualifies being the issue as the state champions in the end, Y2.  But that obviously for a different discussion.

Its ridiculous, this is watering down semi-state and what it means to be a semi-state qualifier.  Some kids work their butts off to be just a semi-state qualifier, now we are adding 56 more and it will mean less to be a semi-state qualifier.

 

You think if anything it would bring up the point that their isn't as much to regionals.  Two sectionals meet in a regional and all you have to do is win one match to make it to semi-state.  Would that mean the people saying semi-state is way to watered down now should really be saying the current regional set up is actually to easy to advance past?

While I don't see many 4th place people haveing an effect in semi-state it would make a wonderful story if a few end up advancing all the way to state.  The 4th place guys wins by saying he's a semi-state qualifier and a chance to upset the field there.  The 1st place regional person wins out because they get a quality match before stepping up for a tough the ticket round.  As with most I'd love to see wrestle backs established, but this at least  could help in some aspects of the sport.

I do think the mood of Friday and Saturday of that state finals is unbelieveable if you are looking at the whole wrestling community.   However, if you are looking at this by groups of people (individual wrestlers plus coaches, friends, family) the ticket round of semi-state is what many are probably the most anxious for because that one single match ends up decides if you make it to the big show.  Yeah the whole crowds not into every match but each persons cheer block is always on the edge of their seats with nerves.  Especially if that wrestler has never made it to or past that point before.  I just love seeing the cheer block for a kid before, during and after that match its almost as good as the state championship match.  Because of that the ticket round of semi-state gets my vote for what I am the most anxious for.  

While Mr. Cox probably does incorrectly understand parts of the sport he is still the governing body that makes the rulings for an against any issue in the sport.   All I am doing is making sure people are informed correctly so it doesn't happen again.  If you believe I am pointing the correct rules interpretation out to hurt other wrestlers I feel sorry for you.  Its not about being right or wrong its about getting the rules correct according to what the IHSAA follows so no one is effected by them.    I did not bring the topic up, however I did try to correct it once information was presented that was incorrect according to the IHSAA interpretation of the rules.  Mr. Cox did not look past it 2 years ago and a decent wrestler almost go ejected from the tournament for that reason.  I am trying to make sure that doesn't happen again.  If you feel that alot of work needs to be done on the rules as many of us coaches do then this needs to be addressed to the ISWCA, IHSAA, and the national organizations.  This discussion is not personal towards you or attacking your interpretation.  However, we have to play by the interpretations of the IHSAA, if we like them or not, and that is the interpretation they are currently using.  But, hidding the issue or interpreting the rules different than the governing body and spreading that information as correct  is not getting the problem fixed.

Littlevito,

Bobby Cox through coach Pecks message stated exactly what I had pointed out earlier that you said was wrong.  The weight loss done at an average of 1.5% per week does carry on through the tournament series.  Thus, this does effect the lightweights who get the extra pound.  At least Bobby Cox recognizes this is not the purpose of the rule and is willing to look past it, but that was not the case in the past.  Since he is the person incharge of determining wrestling per the IHSAA for the state of Indiana I would say that would mean my interpretation is correct.  I agree alot needs to be done to fix the wieght managment issue in the sport and all I am trying to do is ensure no wrestlers get hurt by those rules based on the current iterpretation.  Again I still would like to see the actual worded rules that reflect your interpretation of the rules.  If they do exist then we need to talk with Bobby Cox and get this corrected so that other are not penalized for it in the future as they were in the past.

While it does not say from one weeks official weigh in to the next weeks official weigh in I would believe that is the best appoach to go off and the one that someone would site when making a case against a kid.  That is the only official documentation anyone has on a wrestlers weigh from week to week, so that would have to be how someone would measure it.   The point I am making is to ensure a kid isn't unfairly punished by the rules because a coach or parent was misinformed.  This has already happened in the passed and I just don't want to see it occur again.  I hope you can see it that way.

Thanks Coach Peck for clearning this up per Mr. Cox's interpretation of the rules.  I thought my understanding of the rule was correct, but am also glad to see Mr. Cox is able to see pass the rules wording to the actual purpose it was created for.

I believe their is still much more that needs to be done to inform the coaches of the proper execution of weigh management so that everyone is on the same page.

And seriously if someone is going to "boo" me doing it for something I at least got wrong or offended someone by.  It pathetic when someone boos another poster for correctly point out the actual meaning of a rule which had been incorrectly interpreted by others.  We  do this to help everyone ensure the rules are correctly followed in order to prevent a wrestler from gett hurt by them because the coach or parent was not properly infromed.  If that is worth getting booed for over two different corrected rules issues in two days then several people on here are not in this sport or on this website for the right reason.   

By the word average of 1.5% per week that would make me think from one weeks official weigh in to offical weigh in you can not drop more than an average of 1.5% per week.  Since the only think measured are official weigh ins then as long as you didn't drop more than 1.5% from that documented weigh in to the next it would tell me thats OK.    I am not saying alter the weight management plan form week to week form each official weight in.  That weight managment plan tell you the minimum you can possibly weight per week based on the 1.5% per week.  However, no everyone makes that minimum weight.  In fact several are way above that weight, so by your definition they could infact lose a ton of weight from one official weigh in to the next without issue because they are OK with their weight management plan. 

In other words wrestler A weight management plan says for week 8 he can weigh 140.0 minimum  however he have been weighting at 160 as of the last official weight in.    By your definition he can drop to 140 for week 9 without issue because he is still following his weight managment plan which puts him at 140 or that week.  I contest while 140 may be his lowest weight he can make for week 8 or 9 that doesn't mean he should be allowed to drop 20 pounds in a weeks time to get there just because the weight management plan said he could that week.  From my understanding he would have to go from week to week dropping 1.5% until he actually makes 140 that way.  Yes this is much more work and worry for wrestlers and coaches but I belive  that is what the rule intended to occur.  If it actually does occur correctly in that way I doubt.  As I mentioned all I can find on this says you can't drop more than 1.5% any week.  And that is what I am trying to clarify using that actual rules wording. 

Two seperate issue seem to be at play by the wording of  what I have read.  One is the minimum weight you can be at each week according to your weight management plan.  Which goes on until you have made your lowest minimum possible.  The other issue is the weight loss per week you are allowed to have based on the 1.5% per from official weigh in to official weigh in.

Again I'm not trying to call anyone out, but would actually like the documented rule to be presented and for everyone to interpret it the same way.  As I've said all I have found so far is the statement listed above, and nobody has presented anther one that says all you have to follow in the weight management plan 1.5% and from their you can drop as much as you need from weigh in to weigh in as long as your weight management weekly minimum is fine.   I believe it would be stupid to call a lightweight out on such a rule because it obviously isn't a dramatic cut, but do want to get it clarified so that it doesn't happen to a wrestler during this time.

Warren Central will be getting an extra 2 puonds. Which brings up the question, how does this play into the 1.5% weight allowance? OK, you math majors, figure it out for all of us math challenged people out here. ;D

 

It doesn't play in effect at all.  The wrestlers weight loss plan does not change meet to meet. You get the weight loss plan at the beginning of the season and follow it, end of story.  Nothing changes or recalculates.

Littlevito,

Could you provide me with rule that refers to you only having to follow the wieght managment plan as it refers to 1.5%.  All I've found is documentation saying that "a wrestlers is not allowed to loss more than 1.5% any given week."  The way that is worded it make it sound like reguardless of the minimum weight you could be per the weight management plan you can only lose 1.5%.  Basically saying from official weight in to official weigh in you are only allowed a 1.5% drop.  So by that definition if a really lightweight wrestlers officially weighed in 2 pounds heavy one week  he would not be able to drop more than the 1.5% correctly by the next weeks weigh in.  That would prevent a wrestler during the state tournament from going form 105 officially one week to 107 the next then dropping back down to 105 the next meet after just because the weight management plan told him he could make that weight by that match.  He would infact have to be slightly under 107 to to make it work.  From what I've heard someone during the state tournament two years ago even got called out on it last year and the IHSAA addressed the school and coach over it. While I think that is a cheap thing to do since obviously that was not a major weight cutting issue I do want to get the rule correctly addressed by everyone so a similar issue does not occur.

I'm not trying to get any team in individual in trouble over this one just wanting to clarify using the actual rules so noone is called out on it.  I personally think most of this weight management stuff , while helpful in stopping major weight cutting issues, ends up being a lot of extra work that not everyone understands or even follows in teh exact same way.

Same here Tyson.  We could have non-manditory practice after 4:00 today which is our first practice since Monday too.  Had 10 that were able to show.  Thankfully most of them were at least varsity.  No school again on Friday.  Hopefully we will end up with a little higher number at practice.

If someone can give me a very detailed and trust worthy report of Penns training to prepare for this fight I can more correctly judge who I think the winner should be.  He's already jumping up a weight and facing a very skilled and well-rounded fighter in GSP.  To make it worse its hard to judge which Penn will show for the fight.  One is a unmotivated, lightly trained fighter who seems to have little concern for the fight and treats it more like a sparing contest with no focus on winning or losing.  The other is the highly motivated and well trained fighter who is determined to prove himselve and can outshines almost anyone he faces.  If I knew what Penn was showing up I may be able to pick a winner.

Agreed that this should be something the ref shouldn't have to worry about, since you have enough to do.  But the coaches should make sure its done correctly since it would effect their wrestlers if not followed.

My idea of average would be that within the week you may drop a little more or a little less than the 1.5% from day to day, but by the end of the week it equals out to 1.5%.  If 1.5% or less ends up allowing you to drop a weight class then you are fine.  If not then you have to wait another week or two until it does.  Average if a decently cut and dry word.  If it said "about 1.5%" or "around 1.5%" instead of "an average of 1.5%" I could see where some people would try to wiggle around the rule as much as they could.

The "average of 1.5%" when it pertains to a meet a few days after your last one other than a full week is a little more open to interpretation on how to follow the rule though.  Since it is not spelled out prefectly for this senerio I know coaches have different approaches.  Some say you still can get the 1.5% for that entire week if the meet occurs in the middle of the week or not 1.5% weight loss is OK any time.  Ohers have commented you should follow the idea that a wrestler gets 0.21% a day for the week (1.5 divided by 7 days) so you can only drop what that equals out to from your last meet to the mid-week meet.

MattM you are right...it is by the book illegal. does it happen like c-pink says? yes again because there is not the time nor the resources to check all of the weigh-ins in such a manner to check if a wrestler has lost too much weight. It normally only comes to light when a wrestler cuts a noticeable amount of weight or when people are waiting one someone to slip up and get fat...

Thank you.  I knew my interpretation did follow the rules set out, however C-Pink was very adamant that her interpretation was also correct.  I many not know every rule by heart, but I try to follow those type of rule issues as perfectly as possible since they can effect the wrestler.  

If you and thus I am correct I hope that the teams and coaches that C-Pink says "do this all the time" get correctly informed of the rules so that they do not jeopardize a wrestlers chance to compete.  The correct information, while a little confusing, does need to be spelled and taught very clearly so that can be implemented correctly.  I would hate for something as basic as a weight managment plan followed incorrectly to end up costing a wrestler a match or even a spot in the state tournament series. 

LittleJohn or another information coach or ref

If you have time could you spell out how the 1.5% weight loss plan work for a wrestler.  According to C-Pink I have misinterpreted how the rule works and if so I would like to get that corrected.  

My belief is you can not even wrestle in the next weight class lower (112-103) for a meet until you have sucessfully lost the 1.5% per week in order to drop to that weight class (103).  If you ended up under the next lower weight class (103) but dropped way more than the 1.5% to do it you could still wrestle your regular weight (112) but just not the lower weight (103) yet.   That is to ensure the weight loss plan is folowed correctly from week to week.    I also am under the belief that the same 1.5% weight managment plan is still in effect during the state tournament series even with any weight allowances that could occur. 

C-Pink contention is that you can drop much more that that 1.5% in a week  say 10 pounds (112-103) and still wrestle in a meet at that lower weight class (103) for the meet without a problem.  However, it would not count towards your 6 quality weight ins since you did not make the weight class (103) per the 1.5% yet.   C-Pink claims losing much more than the 1.5% allowed and still getting to wrestle the lower weight class without any issue occurs often so my interpretation of the rule must be incorreect.  C-Pink also claims that this weight managment plan is no existant no matter what weight allowances occur once you get to the state tournament series since the qualification has already been met and your weight class is established.  If I am wrong on your interpretation C-Pink please correct me so I can get your interpretation correct too.

Could  someone shed some light on this issue.  And if I am incorrect what would the point be in a weight managment plan if it still can promote careless and dangerous weight loss through the season.

So if only one school in the sectional cant get to school and hold a practice the entire sectional gets the extra 1 lb. weight adjustment, since it would not be fair to give it to one team and not the rest?

If one school is given the weight allowance all the school in that sectional would receive the same allowance. 

The questions was about a FF and a Bye.  Not wrestler A and a Bye.  C-Pink Please don't attack me on the rules if you are going to change the senerio presented from when I made my statement.  I said that the FF moves on but does not directly recieve advancement points by moving on.   Since the FF would then not win his next match he would not move on getting any more advancement points, bonus points, or anything else.   FF can not recieve any team points, and that is following the rule book.   Besides you do not automatically recieve advancement point for a wrestlers getting a bye until the next match is concluded.  So based on your changed senerio I am still correct in saying you would move passed the bye and no advancements points would be rewarded.  If you gain them later by winning your next match that is later not right when you recieve the bye because it is unclear what would happen in the next match at that point.

As for the weight loss issue I guess you should check with someone else on that one since you believe I am apparently incorrect on the iterpretation of it.  All I know is their have been a few cases in the past year where people have been called out on the rule and school penalized as a result of not following it correctly.  While their have been very few of these issue it has happened before.  I just go by the information on the issue that has been presented over the last several years by different coaches.  While their is much confusion on the issue I know by at least following my guidelines we are within the letter of the rule for why the weight plan was established in the first place.  That is to ensure healthy weight loss for the wrestlers.  Because of that our method would have not problem correctly complying with the managment plan.   If as you said this dramatic weight cutting "happens all the time" where a wrestler does lose more that 1.5% and wrestle a lower wieght class that doesn't necessarily mean everything is correct.  Their is a chance they could have followed the rule incorrectly, but since its the coaches job to check it and no one elses it got overlooked.  It is up to each coach to correctly follow the rules set in place, and they are in chage of following the weight managment plan.  So reguardless of the weight loss issue and who is right and wrong on our parts for the wrestlers sake I hope the coaches are following the rule correctly.  Maybe I am wrong on the exact interpretation of how the 1.5% works but at least by using my interpretation of the rules I know we have still legally followed the weight loss plan with each of our wrestlers anyway.

Some of the weight allowance issue is coming from a wording problem.    When thinking about the rule and how much weight you will get for sectionals make sure you know the difference between the 2 pound growth allowance everyone recieved in January and the extra 1 or 2 pounds some sectionals may recieve because of weather issues that prevented school or practice from occuring.  Everyone will get and continue to get the 2 pound growth allowance but only certain sectionals may allow for an extra 1 or 2 pounds on top of that due to those weather issues.

the forfeit moves on mudd

 

MattM--> if that is so then why are wrestlers allowed to compete in the regular season if they have too low of a weigh in for that week in their weight loss program

Your not breaking a rule and disqualified for cutting more than allowed.  Unless I am thinking about the rule incorrectly you can compete but just not in that weight class you dropped to until you have meet the weight lose plan requirments to be in that weight class.  However, since you have meet the requirement for the next weight class you should still be able to compete at that weight.

A 112 dropping to 103 could not wrestle 103 until the 112 guy dropped the 1.5% per week according to his plan to make it to 103 per the rules.  Until that point he can still wrestle but must remain in the 112 weight class.  He may weigh below 103 for that meet but since he did not follow the weight loss program correctly he would not be eligable to compete at 103 yet.  Once the 2 pound growth allowance is given if the former 112 wrestler who follows the weight loss plan can wrestle 105 at a meet.  However, he must still follow the wieght loss plan and make 103 scratch weight at some point after that to wrestle 103 in sectionals.  He would need to make 6 weigh ins at any weight before sectionals to qualify to wrestle in sectinonals.  These weigh ins can be at any weight so 112 or 103 is fine.  But to wrestle 103 in sectionals he must have at least one weigh in at scratch weight 103 before the start of sectionals reguarless of if its before or after the 2 pound growth allowance.

Not sure that ends up happening to much, but I would say the FF since thats connected with an actual school.  Though no advancement points should be earned by the school since you do not earn advancements points against a Bye.

Question 1

From my understanding of the rule and how others have discussed it over the last two years.  You still have to follow the weight requirement when dropping the the weight class if its during the season or during the tournament.  For instance if you started at 112 and dropped too much weight to end up 101 you are under the 103 weight class but you could not wrestle in the 103 weight class that time.  This is because you did not make the 102 weight class according to your weight managment plan yet.  However, you did meet the ones of 112 and still could wrestle that weight class.  From my understanding it works the same way in the tournament series.  You are only able to drop 1.5% per week.  So if you are to much over 105 (like 107 with the extra 2 pounds added) in your previous weigh in and then drop to 105 you would not have followed the 1.5%. This has very little effect on anyone during this time aside from the very light weights that get an extra allowance for the team tournament because percentage wise they can not drop the entire weight according to the rules set in place if they take advantage of the entire weight allowance.

Question 2

The rules is made for at least one school being out two consecutive days (if I read it right) in order to get 2 pounds for sectionals.  If only one school is out Thursday and only one different school is out Friday that would equal just the one pound allowance.

Just to throw in a curveball to make sure everyone doesn't get caught off guard by a rule issue.  Team regional hopefuls would have to be aware they still would technically have to follow the weight lose plan.  With that being noted the lightest weights may not techically be able to take advantage of the full extra 2 pounds (if that sectional give it to them) since they will have to make weight with only one extra pound that Wednesday and then back to normal weight the following Saturday.  I'm not sure how exactly this would effect someone, but its worth making a point of with your coach so no one gets called out for it.