hammer

I think it might have been Robbie Mallory?

Did he wrestle Jason Carr of Wawasee in the finals at 160?

If a "number" of small schools would benefit from a classed team tournament, wouldn't a GREAT "number" benefit from an individual classed system?

Yes.

Someone from EMD will have the answer to this, but I remember hear at State that an EMD kid was a high State placer in the early part of the last decade, possibly a finalist, that was JV until the varsity guy got hurt that season. 

Once bitten twice shy.  Y2 beat the class wrestling drum for the last couple years and he got nowhere.  Of course he's going to be all grinched out about people supporting it now.  Seems a bit hypocritical to say it's sad to lose team state and then say good riddance, but it happens when people get frustrated.  My attitude has changed about class wrestling has changed over the past couple of years I will admit.  I enjoy our current state tournament from a fan's perspective.  I think it is awesome.  Anyone who doesn't at least enjoy the atmosphere on some level is lying to themselves for sure.  But as a small school coach, it's hard sometimes to get our community behind the kids because they assume it's a lost cause having to wrestle schools with an enrollment 5 times the size of our school.  They equate school size with advantage.  Classing in either tournament format will give more schools the ability to generate excitement within their community about their program, adding exposure to fans and younger kids that will develop into tomorrow's starters.  

 

 

phscoach- I believe that Y2 is being sarcastic, but if I am incorrect, I am sure he'll set the record straight.  You do bring up some goods points about how classing wrestling will help build depth of experience on teams.  I coached at a midsized BB school.  Kids were more interested in watching that team practice, based on the perceived success of that program, rather than be a part of our program, especially if it meant being a reserve on our team. 

I agree with this, go to Ohio and see how many small communities love wrestling. The more people you can get involved the better it is for the sport. If we have 2-3x as many people involved in state level competition that might encourage more people to go get involved in regional and national events outside of the regular season. It also gets more kids encouraged about wrestling in college and keeps the sport healthy. I just don't understand the arguments against classing that say it's better for the sport. What's a state that classed and it hurt the popularity?

Good points. 

To me this makes  somewhat no sense yea it may look good to be a Louisiana 3x state champ(for example)which that state has classes, but put him on the mat with a kid from indiana who was a 1 time state qualifier and 2 time placer in Indiana and lets see who wins. My bet is on the Indiana kid! Sure it looks great but if you have talent a coach will recognize it.

The point is that when someone like John Smith gives his opinion on HS wrestling, the state of Indiana should listen.  He is on record for saying that we hurt ourselves as a state by not classing wrestling, which in turn hurts the kids.  Whether people want to argue whether class wrestling makes a wrestler better or not, you can't dispute the fact that a 2X state champ multi-class system will get more college attention that a 2X state placer in a one class system.

The big schools LOVE to beat up on the little schools, why should we take this away from them and make them wrestle only the other big schools?

 

The IHSWCA survey will not do any good when the biggest schools do not want or care about class wrestling therefore their numbers will skew the data the most.  About 90% of the 1A coaches want classed team, while only 60% of the 3A coaches want it.  

That is a big part of the problem.  The big schools that aren't very good will look at it say, "It doesn't benefit us, so why support it?". 

I am willing to sacrifice team state if that means we have to class the individual portion also.  I do however strongly support classing the team state if we can keep it.

Spoken like a true fan, rather than someone who sees the "big picture".

Bottom line is the IHSWCA is currently conductin a survey to see what are coaches want.  We are missing around 70 of our coaches answers as of now to have a completed survey from every school in State.

tskin- I am a former wrestling coach, so I am not currently a member of the IHSWCA.  I think the input of all of the members is important, but I also think that the input of others is also important.

I can certainly see your point and respect your opinion. I look at the argument from the standpoint of what is best for improving the wrestling in Indiana. Quality, quantity, popularity, etc. Most important is to look at what needs to be done to make sure wrestling is a strong and viable sport. I look to other states to see what they do well.  It seems that many states that are considered better wrestling states than Indiana have at least some portion classed.  Many states class both portions, although I am not generally in favor of that as a fan. If it could be proved that classing individual is the way to go for the long term health of the sport, then I might be persuaded to change my opinion.

 

Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Iowa class both. Do they know something we don't or do they have the same arguments.

I respect the opinions of others as well.  I am glad to see that you look at it from the perspective of what is best for the health of the sport, and not just what's best as a fan.  If I looked at it as what's best as a fan, I would say to class none of it, as I might very well have said 5-10 years ago.  But wrestling is not only surviving, but thriving in our neighboring states like OH, MI, IL, etc., for example.  I can only see class wrestling helping wrestling in our state to continue to grow.  It will bring more kids to the sport, which will bring more parents to the sport, which means a bigger fan base, which means bigger gates, which means more of what the IHSAA is most concerned about---more revenue!

It's a logical plan but the IHSAA would never approve it.  They would never have a classed team state while keeping the individual state series single class.  It's a risky idea because it's all or nothing.  

 

Your three class scenario would produce three sets of the same dominant teams year after year, segregated from the others.  Class 2 would probably be MD and Yorktown year after year.  Predictable and boring.

 

In Ohio, for example, national powerhouse St. Paris Graham is Class II, and they blow away the field every single year - without ever getting to face Lakewood St. Edward, Class III.  The Graham - St. Ed's dual meet is the real Ohio team dual state championship every year, and it happens in a regular season dual.  Not ideal.

 

Taking only one sectional champ in the individual would take us back to how it was in the 1960s and maybe early '70s.  Is that what we want?

My plan classes both individual and team.  Class 2 would be Bellmont, this year, and I suspect a lot of years. 

This is what I have the biggest problem with in your idea.  Most people will agree with me.  Look at how many Regionals have 2-3 guys that are among the best in the state and deserve the chance to qualify, if not place or win a state championship.

 

I'm all for classing the team tournament, but not at the expense of ruining the individual tournament.

Let's face it, there is no "perfect system".  But if other sports can eliminate the second best team in the State in a given Sectional, as it often happens in football, as well as other sports, then I think it's fine to do it in the individual tournament.  My other thought on it was just having 4 Super Regionals, and advancing both finalists, or advancing the top 3 kids, and then having the 2's and 3's wrestling on Friday night at State, giving the champs a bye to Saturday.  Would that be better?

Under my plan, classing wrestling would also eliminate Semi State.  Team State would have one representative from each of the 3 evenly distributed classes, from each of the current SS areas.  We would start a week earlier than we currently do, so as to start from a dual meet format, rather than starting from an individual format as we currently do.  It would mean that Team State would be a Final Four for each of the 3 perspective classes.  The Individual tournament would advance only champions in each of the 3 divisions from each Sectional and each Regional.  We would have 8 Regionals and advance the champions in each division to State.  Friday night would be single elimination, as it currently is.  The winning wrestlers would advance to the Semifinals, and would place.  There would be room for some tweaking, but this is a general outline of what I project it to look like.  Let the voting begin!

I am almost certain that one year MD sent all but 1 wrestler to state.  I believe it was Matt Boehman's senoir year and he was the 1 that didn't go.

I am almost certain that this is correct.  For some reason it sticks out in my mind.

Congratulations!

It will be very interesting to see how things end up this year.  It's really too early to tell what order the SSs will finish in.  You might see a SS get the most or the 2nd most champs, but the least number of placers this year. 

While I am totally in favor of wrestle backs at Semi-State, because too often a better wrestler goes home instead of to the dance. At the same time to me ticket round of SS is one of my favorite rounds of wrestling in the whole tourney.

I would agree this.  Wrestlebacks would get the best 4 wrestlers through more often than we currently do, but the current way increases the excitement level.  Wrestlebacks would help the guy who comes out cold, but they would penalize the guy who comes in with a great strategy and pulls off the upsets.  If you had wrestlebacks at SS, you would see a lot of better wrestlers lose early, but come back to beat the guy that beat him in the second chance match.  If we ever add wrestlebacks at SS, it should be from the second round on.

I would also rather see it set up that way.  The IHSAA doesn't seed it, so we end up with match ups like this too soon.  Fortunately, the other team that should be in the mix, Perry Meridian, is not on the same side of the bracket as EMD and CP.

The best thing about that Storley match is after he is pinned there was no fit thrown.  He got up waited patiently as the kid acted like he had just won the olympics(or kissed Justin Bieber), shook the guys hand, and then shook the oposing coaches hand.  Some kids lose several times a year and still act like babies.  This would be great for them to watch.

 

 

I agree.  That kid showed composure.  Many wrestlers could learn from watching that.

Good article, although it incorrectly states that Blake Mauer won 4 Team State Championships at Mater Dei.

AJ you are missing my point...

 

If you believe those things because you think they are BEST FOR WRESTLING and NOT because they are BEST FOR YOUR SCHOOL, we are on the same page.

 

My issue is with people and coaches that want something because it is best for their program and don't seem to care about what is best for wrestling.

 

The 103 issue is debatable.  Don't really want to get into that now, but 103 is most forfeited weight class ...and I have talked to lots of small school coaches that say they could fill it if it were slightly raised.  My point is determine your decision based off of what you believe is best for the sport as a whole and not your team.  If it was just about Mishawaka for me, I would fight for a 90 pound weight class.  Jake Sinkovics is a freaking stud for us and only weighs 88 pounds...technique wise he is a state placer, but much too small for 103...My decision is based off of what I think is best for the sport...that is all I am asking coaches and fans to do.

 

As far as classing team state, I want to smash my head into a wall.  How is the world would that not benefit our sport?  Big schools have the numbers and can fill and compete in dual meets...maybe they need to adjust what they are doing, but there is no reason they can't compete.  We had won something like 10 sectionals in a row...and Penn crushed us saturday.  That is my point... if we are competing against schools with similar numbers for a trip to state, a chance to place and/or a chance to win how is the world can ANYONE say that isn't good for our sport.  We are NOT talking about ending the individual freaking tournament...We are just talking about making our sport more of a team sport and giving more teams a chance to be successful in the Team Series.  Why not give kids a chance to be finalists, placers or champs in both the Team and Individual State?  How is that not a good thing?

 

Thanks

Snyder

Well stated! 

Eastern only forfeited 2 weight classes at sectionals and scored points in 11 weight classes with 4 champions and 2 runners up. Now This might be as ignorant as your statement but I think a team doing that would win almost any sectional.

The fact that they had 4 champs and two runners up says nothing about the strength of the Sectional.  You can disagree all that you want, but I will guarantee there are tons of schools finishing second or 3rd in their own Sectionals that would win this one.  Probably some teams that finish even lower in their own Sectionals.  You may not understand this, but not all Sectionals are created equal.

Bobby Cox's argument about Team State having run it's course is incorrect.  What Eastern's dropping out of Team Regional shows more than anything else is that we need Sectional realignment.  Their Sectional is obviously too weak if a team with only 7 healthy wrestlers can win it. 

Who was the Heavyweight in the 90's who made it downtown  undefeated 2-3 times - lost to a much bigger heavyweight. This was pre-215 if I'm not mistaken.

 

Hummel?

Hummel lost to Andy Schneider, as a JR and SR.  He must have been giving away at least 60lbs, but considering that Schneider was cutting to make weight, it was probably more like giving up 80lbs.  Hummel was the poster-child for the 215lb class.  Ironically, the #1 HWT this year, Daniel Meyer, is roughly Hummel's size.

Alex Dolly

 

I think he could of beat SEVERAL of the state champions in other weight classes that year.  Tough draw that Blake Maurer is. 

I would venture to say that it's a safe bet that he could have beaten any of the state champs in classes below his own.